Rules enforcement from top PDGA pros

[robdeforge]

Towards the beginning of round 1 Par Save coverage of the Silver Cup, we can hear Kevin Jones and Nate Perkins talk a bit about Nikko's slow pace of play.



Kevin: As players it's not our spot to get into a time limit mess like that, in my opinion.
Nate: I don't think so either, I don't think we should be making the call.
Kevin: In my opinion, that's too awkward.

I like both of the guys, don't like this take, but at least they are up front about not wanting to call stuff. And I will concede that calling a time violation would not be ideal/fun, but an absolute refusal to acknowledge it is kinda lame IMO

Any thoughts as to how the PDGA maybe could adjust the rule to make it easier to call?

 

[BillFleming]

Any thoughts as to how the PDGA maybe could adjust the rule to make it easier to call?

Can't.

Tournaments have enough trouble getting enough volunteers just to work as spotters. And usually volunteers aren't Rules Officials for the tournament. Remember....in the absence of a rules official, the card members have final say - if they aren't willing to call the infraction, then that's how it is. The 30 second rule is one that really only affects the players on that card.

I've seen, what appears to me, are more blatant and can have affected scores. Jump/step putting where the foot hits the ground in front of the marker before releasing the putt. Run ups where the front foot goes in front of the edge of the tee box before the disc is released. That extra distance can give an advantage.

I'm not a pro....but when deciding whether or not to call a penalty, the thought may be...does this affect the score/throw?

Going over 30 seconds is annoying, but really doesn't affect the score.
Jump/step putting and landing before releasing the disc lets you get closer to the basket and more likely to make the putt.

Unless the players on the card are willing to make the call, or you have a rules official or official timer with every group, timing every shot.....this is a rule that won't be enforced.

 

[ray1970]

I did watch a tournament from a year or two ago where Ricky Wysocki got called for a fault by someone on his card. I can't remember details but it seems a lot of the tee pads were on sidewalks and Ricky was constantly planting his foot across the line when teeing off and apparently someone finally decided to call him on it.

I think I saw McBeth call something on a card mate once as well.

Making a live call on a jump or step putt would be difficult without some sort of slow motion replay.

I do agree some of the pros seem to drag out there routine a bit long, especially when putting. I've seen guys with pretty much a tap in go through their entire 29 second routine before making their putt.

 

[Jay Dub]

Towards the beginning of round 1 Par Save coverage of the Silver Cup, we can hear Kevin Jones and Nate Perkins talk a bit about Nikko's slow pace of play.



Kevin: As players it's not our spot to get into a time limit mess like that, in my opinion.
Nate: I don't think so either, I don't think we should be making the call.
Kevin: In my opinion, that's too awkward.

I like both of the guys, don't like this take, but at least they are up front about not wanting to call stuff. And I will concede that calling a time violation would not be ideal/fun, but an absolute refusal to acknowledge it is kinda lame IMO

Any thoughts as to how the PDGA maybe could adjust the rule to make it easier to call?

Kevin and Nate are breaking the rules here.

 

[robdeforge]

Can't.

Tournaments have enough trouble getting enough volunteers just to work as spotters. And usually volunteers aren't Rules Officials for the tournament. Remember....in the absence of a rules official, the card members have final say - if they aren't willing to call the infraction, then that's how it is. The 30 second rule is one that really only affects the players on that card.

I've seen, what appears to me, are more blatant and can have affected scores. Jump/step putting where the foot hits the ground in front of the marker before releasing the putt. Run ups where the front foot goes in front of the edge of the tee box before the disc is released. That extra distance can give an advantage.

I'm not a pro....but when deciding whether or not to call a penalty, the thought may be...does this affect the score/throw?

Going over 30 seconds is annoying, but really doesn't affect the score.
Jump/step putting and landing before releasing the disc lets you get closer to the basket and more likely to make the putt.

Unless the players on the card are willing to make the call, or you have a rules official or official timer with every group, timing every shot.....this is a rule that won't be enforced.

I definitely agree that calling time violations is difficult. However, the first is a warning and does not result in a penalty stroke so maybe Nikko would not have had any time issues after being warning the first time like he clearly should have been.

I'm also constantly reminded of the Spirit of the Game section in the competition manual:

Disc golf is typically played without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the player to show sportsmanship, integrity, consideration for other players, and to abide by the Rules of Play. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. Make the call. Accept the call. It's not personal; it's the rules. That is the spirit of the game of disc golf.

 

[Jugular]

I think not calling this has the potential to really harm the sport going forward. One area we have that has potential to keep us more appealing than Golf is the potential for the sport to be quicker and more exciting.

I think the PDGA or DGPT should be putting retrospective sanctions on players that break rules so obviously as this. This is not a slight mistiming of a throw or misstep it's blatant breaking of the rules.

Some of the other examples require great attention to spot or really need a replay to be sure the infraction occurred. This sort of timing overrun is clear as day.

 

[Jay Dub]

It seems the attitude with too many disc golfers is:

"Grow the sport!! but don't expect us to follow rules".

 

[Cgkdisc]

Those upset about rules not being called are missing the point that the infractions must be called by other players in the group. If no players in the group call what appears on video to be an infraction, has a rule been broken? Technically, no, even if we might have called it. But we can't. If anything, the players in the group may also have been equally at fault for not calling it since they were supposed to be watching for rules infractions. The rules for our game? Players in the groups make the calls... or not.

 

[BillFleming]

Those upset about rules not being called are missing the point that the infractions must be called by other players in the group. If no players in the group call what appears on video to be an infraction, has a rule been broken? Technically, no, even if we might have called it. But we can't. If anything, the players in the group may also have been equally at fault for not calling it since they were supposed to be watching for rules infractions. The rules for our game? Players in the groups make the calls... or not.

And....please, don't let disc golf become ball golf where people viewing the event on TV/YouTube/wherever can call in and report a violation after the fact.

 

[robdeforge]

Those upset about rules not being called are missing the point that the infractions must be called by other players in the group. If no players in the group call what appears on video to be an infraction, has a rule been broken? Technically, no, even if we might have called it. But we can't. If anything, the players in the group may also have been equally at fault for not calling it since they were supposed to be watching for rules infractions. The rules for our game? Players in the groups make the calls... or not.

that is exactly the point of this post - to discuss the explicit refusal to call a clear rules violation. And the refusal isn't some hypothetical "I think this is why they didn't call it" but literally two pros just talking back and forth about how they won't call this rule because it's too awkward

I, personally, believe in a level playing field. the best way to ensure a level playing field is to have a set of rules, and have the rules enforced. We clearly have the first but not the second

And....please, don't let disc golf become ball golf where people viewing the event on TV/YouTube/wherever can call in and report a violation after the fact.

I believe that is no longer a thing, so no need to worry

 

[Streets]

Change the rule from 30 seconds to a minute. Problem solved.

 

[BillFleming]

In all the comments posted about this (even mine), one thing I haven't seen is - why hasn't the PDGA done anything about it?

The PDGA is the rules authority - they CAN take action. Whether it is telling the player they broke a rule, or doling out a punishment, or just letting it be known that a rule was broken and it needs to be enforced in tournaments.

There is proof Niko 'broke' the rule. In the video you can hear him say he took his 35 seconds. I believe the commentators even mentioned it. Since nothing was done during the round, the PDGA should publicly take action (even if it is only to say this is unacceptable and players need to enforce the rules/call the violations).

It would be interesting to know how other players in the tournament felt after seeing the video. Were they upset that Niko's card mates didn't call it? Or were they like "okay, no biggie". Really, it might irritate us...but I'm really wondering how the pros playing feel about it.

 

[BillFleming]

Change the rule from 30 seconds to a minute. Problem solved.

Nope....then some players will take 65 seconds. Seriously.

 

[Streets]

Nope....then some players will take 65 seconds. Seriously.

Oops, forgot the sarcasm face on my post. :|

I do agree with you.

 

[biscoe]

In all the comments posted about this (even mine), one thing I haven't seen is - why hasn't the PDGA done anything about it?

The PDGA is the rules authority - they CAN take action. Whether it is telling the player they broke a rule, or doling out a punishment, or just letting it be known that a rule was broken and it needs to be enforced in tournaments.

There is proof Niko 'broke' the rule. In the video you can hear him say he took his 35 seconds. I believe the commentators even mentioned it. Since nothing was done during the round, the PDGA should publicly take action (even if it is only to say this is unacceptable and players need to enforce the rules/call the violations).

It would be interesting to know how other players in the tournament felt after seeing the video. Were they upset that Niko's card mates didn't call it? Or were they like "okay, no biggie". Really, it might irritate us...but I'm really wondering how the pros playing feel about it.

The PDGA is not in the business of watching video for retroactive rules violations nor should it be. Were they to be contacted with a complaint then they would need to deal with it. Were the players to complain to the TD then perhaps the TD could deal with it for later rounds of the event. As noted there is no penalty attached to a warning other than having to babysit the warned player afterwards.

I am not a top pro by any means but i have both played in and run hundreds of events- I am 99.9% sure the players dislike the fact that Nikko continually flouts the rules but don't care enough/are too afraid of disrupting their own game to do anything about it.

 

[Jay Dub]

Those upset about rules not being called are missing the point that the infractions must be called by other players in the group. If no players in the group call what appears on video to be an infraction, has a rule been broken? Technically, no, even if we might have called it. But we can't. If anything, the players in the group may also have been equally at fault for not calling it since they were supposed to be watching for rules infractions. The rules for our game? Players in the groups make the calls... or not.

If someone breaks a rule but no one calls them on it then they didn't break the rule "technically"? That's confusing and a damn convenient way out.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If someone breaks a rule but no one calls them on it then they didn't break the rule "technically"? That's confusing and a damn convenient way out.

That's the way it is. You're just getting to see it in practice. Officials in other sports make similar judgments on how severe a transgression needs to be, if they see if at all, before they call it.

 

[GripEnemy]

You have to be able to self police on your way to stardom, nobody is born a pro. Point being it always worked just fine in ultimate when I played. What's the difference between a card mate and the other team? Absolutely nothing aside from the fact their shirts all match.

If you aren't calling people when you're rec/am, you'll continue that pattern as a professional. Pro ultimate does have the luxury of refs but those players didn't always have them...

 

[teemkey]

Towards the beginning of round 1 Par Save coverage of the Silver Cup, we can hear Kevin Jones and Nate Perkins talk a bit about Nikko's slow pace of play.
...
Kevin: As players it's not our spot to get into a time limit mess like that, in my opinion.
Nate: I don't think so either, I don't think we should be making the call.
Kevin: In my opinion, that's too awkward.
...

IIRC one of the commentators also said "...low score wins."

I take this as an implication that:
1) they don't think Nikko's routine results in lower scores;
2) they do think enforcing the time limit would result in higher scores for them.

Consider that to be "objective" at least one player will reference a watch or phone. And if they do that it means:
1) it takes them out of their game;
2) it means they're targeting the slow player.

 

[philstine]

I am not a top pro by any means but i have both played in and run hundreds of events- I am 99.9% sure the players dislike the fact that Nikko continually flouts the rules but don't care enough/are too afraid of disrupting their own game to do anything about it.

Several years ago, McBeth stated in an interview that he would never call a time violation on Nikko, because the longer Nikko stood over a putt, the more likely he was to miss it.

I suspect that most of the pros who regularly play with Nikko recognize that as well and are therefore unwilling to surrender what they perceive as a competitive advantage in their favor. Furthermore, I suspect most of those pros recognize that Nikko plays significantly better when someone or something fires him up, so while they may be mildly annoyed at the time violations, they're not about to hand him an excuse to get fired up.