Was: The Putter Thread; Now: Disc Legality, Rules, Altering

[iacas]

When Discraft first allowed me to make a batch of custom gripstamps...

That's new information. If the PDGA inspected and ruled, then I have no issue and that's not quite what I was discussing.

PDGA rules are often criticized for being incomplete and not fully addressing issues. Our aged grandfather (Ball Golf) has VOLUMES of rules and hordes of officials to enforce them.

I don't think that's accurate. Every sport that's been around for awhile and is several levels above "beer pong" has lengthy rules books. Golf's is no longer or than the NFL's, NHL's, MLB's, etc. And even a PGA Tour event with 156 player fields only has two or three actual rules officials. Walking officials are often assigned (and only sometimes used) during some majors as a convenience and pace of play.

Our rules fit in a small pamphlet we can easily carry with us and we are mostly self-officiated. Our rules try (and usually succeed) in being simple and clear. They don't cover every conceivable situation but create principles which can be fairly applied when odd occurrences pop up. We could "lawyer up" our rules if we choose. How many things in life improve with more lawyers involved?

Oh brother. :roll: The PDGA rules will likely become increasingly complex as the sport continues to grow. There will be a desire for those "situations" to be covered.

All these methods can make a disc more under or overstable but otherwise doesn't change the flight characteristics in any useful way.

That's an opinion. Clearly the flight characteristics of the discs were changed. And for the record I don't have any problem whatsoever with someone modifying a disc. Heck, you can bend it in your hands as part of your pre-shot routine to affect the flight of the disc. That kind of modification doesn't matter, but it's against the rules as they're written.

The rules simply say "Players may not make post-production modifications of discs which alter their original flight characteristics." Bending a disc as part of your pre-shot routine doesn't gall me, but a strict interpretation of the rule says that even THAT would be illegal. It doesn't take a strict reading of those rules to see how boiling and doing other things that noticeably change the shape of the disc would be illegal "post-production modifications which alter their original flight characteristics."

This is especially important given the rule for 2013 where a disc whose legality is questioned is unavailable to that player until a TD makes a ruling. In my opinion you can't put THAT rule in place while having sloppy, loosely defined rules on what makes a disc legal or illegal.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to believe that disc golf is filled with people that simply look the other way in a "we all do it" kinda fashion. Though I personally prefer to adhere to the rules very strictly myself in the sports I play, the one time I've ever called someone on a rules violation in my years of competitive golf was actually pre-emptive to prevent him from getting a penalty. I've looked the other way on the few rules infractions (all in match play - in stroke play I have the obligation to protect the field) I've seen, often because I was winning already and I found it sad that someone would feel the need to cheat at a game.

PDGA Technical Standard testing is purposely low tech, easy and inexpensive. Ball Golf scoffs at this. Fine, let it scoff. My driver costs under $20.

I don't believe that it's "purposely" low tech. I think it's "low tech" simply because there's no money in disc golf. There's simply not enough money (and thus not enough demand from pros and consumers) to enforce tighter standards, but the key phrase there is "enforce," not "standards." The standards are written. They're out there. It's just impractical to have a scale at every tournament, and customers and pros aren't requiring manufacturers to adhere to strict standards, because everyone just looks the other way.

You might have the concept somewhat off. Discs, per se, are not approved. Molds are approved. So any disc made from an approved mold is also approved.

I understand the distinction. An approved mold can still result in an illegal disc, specifically if post-production modifications are made. Hot stamping is not part of the mold, nor is a disc that's overweight but made from a legal mold. A disc with a hole punched in it, a disc with detectable thickness stickers applied, a disc that's been cut, overly sanded, had its "original flight characteristics altered," etc. are all illegal discs.

As far as hotstamping goes it does not change the weight, stiffness or rim configuration of a disc. The danger of doing a poor job with a grip stamp is that the disc can become warped or the flight plate could be burned through. Neither of these mistakes gives any advantage in terms of flight characteristics and just means the poor disc is doomed to the regrind box.

Mark, the rules do not say "give an advantage" (which is subjective anyway - a disc that becomes more understable after some procedure might not suit you but may be just what someone else wants). They say "alter their original flight characteristics."

 

[Frank Delicious]

I have a couple of lizard skin stamped magnets and the one I threw doesn't fly any different than a normal magnet. It grips better but that is about it.

Lat 64 used to/maybe still does make spikes and sinuses with grip plates built into the mold.

I remember when DC tried making surges with the thumb grip technology but those were never approved for PDGA play. I don't know if they never submitted them or they didn't pass for some reason.

 

[iacas]

BTW, the thought occurs to me that this is a simple way of summing most of this up: The rules regarding disc "legality" are unenforceable.

People routinely alter the original flight characteristics of their discs outside the bounds of normal wear via use in play/practice, they often carry overweight discs, or discs which aren't quite the same proportions, and even one mold of the same disc can ship from the factory with a wide array of flight characteristics.

The rules are out of sync with the reality of the current economics and state of disc golf.

I think, though, that wanting disc golf to grow and being opposed to better and more thorough rules are at odds with each other, unless by "grow" the person means only at the recreational level, where the rules of every sport are loosely interpreted and often customized heavily.

 

[Frank Delicious]

You know what hot stamps do alter the flight characteristics? Those 6 or 7 stamped ones that are included in innova x-out deals. I have some that have been stamped so much they definitely added weight/thickness to the disc.

 

[Frank Delicious]

You know what hot stamps do alter the flight characteristics? Those 6 or 7 stamped ones that are included in innova x-out deals. I have some that have been stamped so much they definitely added weight/thickness to the disc.

 

[Widdershins]

If the current rules are unenforceable is the best solution to write lots more rules?

I have played in a few tournaments. Many times I have wondered if the guys in my division were better than me (ok, sometimes I have KNOWN they were much better than me ). I have never worried whether their discs were better than mine or if they had done some nefarious thing to make them fly differently than PDGA specs allow.

Heck if the next tournament someone told me they had some new secret method of improving their discs I would laugh and not care whether it was done in a factory or in a mad scientist's laboratory. If their PDGA handicap rating was worse than mine I would probably offer a side bet.

Some famous guy once remarked it ain't the arrow it's the Indian. If that Indian wants to sand or microwave that arrow it is still true.

Most of have done relatively radical things to discs like tape ribbons on in winter or glow lights for nighttime. Do these things affect the flight? Not enough to worry about and certainly nothing that makes them better.

There are rules which are important to the fairness of the game. In my opinion this is not one of them.

 

[iacas]

If the current rules are unenforceable is the best solution to write lots more rules?

I didn't say that it was. But either the rules need to be changed or the enforcement needs to be changed.

I have never worried whether their discs were better than mine or if they had done some nefarious thing to make them fly differently than PDGA specs allow.

That's just an example of the "look the other way" culture that seems to pervade disc golf.

Heck if the next tournament someone told me they had some new secret method of improving their discs I would laugh and not care whether it was done in a factory or in a mad scientist's laboratory. If their PDGA handicap rating was worse than mine I would probably offer a side bet.

So? That doesn't mean what they did was legal.

Some famous guy once remarked it ain't the arrow it's the Indian. If that Indian wants to sand or microwave that arrow it is still true.

Again, though you may not care, that's not what the rules say.

Most of have done relatively radical things to discs like tape ribbons on in winter or glow lights for nighttime. Do these things affect the flight? Not enough to worry about and certainly nothing that makes them better.

Your opinion and the rules are very different things, Mark. And the Rules don't talk about what's "better" only that the "original flight characteristics" are "altered."

There are rules which are important to the fairness of the game. In my opinion this is not one of them.

So a person should be allowed to throw a heavier than legal putter on a windy day? That doesn't affect the fairness? A person should be allowed to cut notches into the wing of his putter to grab the chains? That doesn't affect fairness?

 

[money 21]

iacas the are two parts to any law or rule the intent and the word. you attemp to write a law so you get the benefet that you want. I work in law enforcement an as an example of this i will put forth this situation. Speed limits are set usually at 55 did the law makes really want 55 as the speed for people to go? No they want people to go 60 so they set the limit at 55 because they knew people would bend the laws just a little. Same here I think the rule was set to keep the major motifications from happening the little ones are just to hard to enforce.

 

[iacas]

iacas the are two parts to any law or rule the intent and the word. you attemp to write a law so you get the benefet that you want. I work in law enforcement an as an example of this i will put forth this situation. Speed limits are set usually at 55 did the law makes really want 55 as the speed for people to go? No they want people to go 60 so they set the limit at 55 because they knew people would bend the laws just a little. Same here I think the rule was set to keep the major motifications from happening the little ones are just to hard to enforce.

I disagree, and you can get a speeding ticket for going 59, so the law disagrees as well. You're just describing another example of "look the other way."

The best rules don't have grey areas, and if you try to add "intent" to everything, then you get a big mess real fast.

Again, this is especially important (while at the same time, in the grand scheme of things, being the least important thing this week) given the rules change about questioning another player's disc and that disc being unavailable to them (a terrible rule, IMO).

The rules are written in a way that they cannot be enforced... yet they also prevent someone from putting a sticker with their name and phone number on the bottom of the disc so they can easily peel it off without inking the disc and lowering its value (if you're into that sort of thing).

 

[thechamp]

This thread could go on like this forever until there is a rule to cover every possible situation and those rules are enforced constantly by an endless supply of rules enforcing officials, or at least one official to follow every player in every sanctioned event. Are the current PDGA rules perfect? No, they are from from perfect, but a larger number of rules isn't better.
I find more parallels between golf discs and the grips on a golf club than I do golf discs and the heads of golf clubs or golf balls.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The disc specs came about for a variety of reasons with safety (read: liability) and some dimensional uniformity being the primary driving forces as the game evolved. If you have weight, material, edge sharpness and flex standards, the thought was that at least the sport overall had some nominal standards to reduce possible injury should the feared "big lawsuit" ever come about. The proverbial "James Bondlike" disc with the razor blades in the rim wouldn't be legal for example. Safety concerns were the driving force for the 150 class being established for the Japanese in the early 90s. I was on that committee and felt they also needed to limit the rim sharpness standard to the equivalent of the Cobra so that aspect would also be accounted for. That part failed and just the weight limit was considered enough by the Japanese.

The max & min size standards had more to do with allowing the target manufacturer (DGA at the time) to know what they might be expected to catch and retain in the basket and not fall thru.

The post production modification clause was inserted to make sure enough players would have access to some unknown new disc design tweak. That's why minimum production quantities were also in there. Apparently, some players were either getting or had in the past been getting access to new discs before their competitors, sometimes right before Worlds. The design advances at the time with the new beveled edge technology were enough that it mattered. It probably matters quite a bit less at this point now that many discs are bumping up against the spec limits. So as Ellis points out, no one is really afraid of someone tweaking a disc for an advantage. But the spec remains more for the competitive fairness issue where enough players should have access to some sort of tweak via the disc approval process and sufficient production quantities being available for player access.

 

[ferretdance03]

Judas f'ing priest. If I didn't know better I'd swear iacas was VeganRay trolling us. Hard. Or maybe a love child of VR and JR.

 

[XCyclone]

Judas f'ing priest. If I didn't know better I'd swear iacas was VeganRay trolling us. Hard. Or maybe a love child of VR and JR.

yup, that's what I was thinking http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=18135&start=30

in any case, disc noob who doesn't even throw in the winter vs pro who has gone through a shit-ton bunch of tournaments; gonna have to go with the pro on this one

 

[Widdershins]

And for the record I don't have any problem whatsoever with someone modifying a disc. Heck, you can bend it in your hands as part of your pre-shot routine to affect the flight of the disc. That kind of modification doesn't matter, but it's against the rules as they're written.

The rules simply say "Players may not make post-production modifications of discs which alter their original flight characteristics." Bending a disc as part of your pre-shot routine doesn't gall me, but a strict interpretation of the rule says that even THAT would be illegal. It doesn't take a strict reading of those rules to see how boiling and doing other things that noticeably change the shape of the disc would be illegal "post-production modifications which alter their original flight characteristics."

This is especially important given the rule for 2013 where a disc whose legality is questioned is unavailable to that player until a TD makes a ruling. In my opinion you can't put THAT rule in place while having sloppy, loosely defined rules on what makes a disc legal or illegal.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to believe that disc golf is filled with people that simply look the other way in a "we all do it" kinda fashion. Though I personally prefer to adhere to the rules very strictly myself in the sports I play, the one time I've ever called someone on a rules violation in my years of competitive golf was actually pre-emptive to prevent him from getting a penalty. I've looked the other way on the few rules infractions (all in match play - in stroke play I have the obligation to protect the field) I've seen, often because I was winning already and I found it sad that someone would feel the need to cheat at a game."

iacas,

If a player throws his disc into a thick bush but tries to take his next shot from the middle of the fairway I will stop him and tell him he cannot do this under the rules. The rules should prevent anyone from an unfair competitive advantage. But if a player is sneaking a beer at lunch in a park which is alcohol free I won't call the cops on him. He is breaking a rule which doesn't matter to the fairness of the competition. Some rules I just don't care about.

Yet to you evidently every rule should be enforced (or re-written so it can be enforced). But you say YOU don't call players on rule violations. Why don't you call everything and make citizens arrests for every law you see broken anywhere in society? Why bother to write any rules if even you won't enforce them?

If you are correct about the new rule coming in 2013 then this sounds like a terrible rule. My competitor makes his first 3 putts. I question the legality of his putter. Now he can't use it until a TD rules on it? Either a huge backlog occurs as the group waits for the TD to be located (he is playing in a group 3 holes in front of you but you don't know it) or the player is deprived the use of his disc. For all you guys who carry small bags this might be scary. And what is to stop me from questioning every disc in everyone's bag?

And for any who believe in the STRICT enforcement of PDGA rules, what would happen if every Amateur player were called on every foot fault? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Jerbob]

And for any who believe in the STRICT enforcement of PDGA rules, what would happen if every Amateur player were called on every foot fault? :lol: :lol: :lol:

What if every pro were called on every foot fault? No tournament would ever finish before dark.

 

[iacas]

Not that it's relevant, but I throw indoors the same place I teach golf and practice in the winter. When we have a disc golf course within 50 miles of me I might play a bit during the winter. I've got other winter sports (namely hockey), though. Noob vs. seasoned pro is largely irrelevant when it comes to topics like this. I'm not talking about tournament experience, historical events, etc. I'm talking about the Rules, something anyone and everyone can discuss if they are capable of reading. Don't want to read it? Don't. Very simple solution.

This thread could go on like this forever until there is a rule to cover every possible situation and those rules are enforced constantly by an endless supply of rules enforcing officials, or at least one official to follow every player in every sanctioned event. Are the current PDGA rules perfect? No, they are from from perfect, but a larger number of rules isn't better.

I don't believe I've argued for more rules. I'm simply saying the rules regarding equipment in disc golf are currently un-enforceable. Perhaps the answer is FEWER rules regarding discs, because if people currently violate them but nobody cares, why have the rule in the first place?

Golf has "more rules" that "cover [almost] every possible situation" and they don't require "an endless supply of rules enforcing officials." 99% of the time knowing a few basic rules is all you need, and if you spend a little time understanding how the Rule book is laid out, you can quickly discover the answers to just about anything.

I find more parallels between golf discs and the grips on a golf club than I do golf discs and the heads of golf clubs or golf balls.

Perhaps, but even given that, the Rules of Golf have several paragraphs/clauses on grips. There's just never been an advantage to try to find loopholes (the Paddle grip was outlawed, and that's the last "loophole" anyone really tried to exploit with grips... and that was a few decades ago).

The disc specs came about for a variety of reasons with safety (read: liability) and some dimensional uniformity being the primary driving forces as the game evolved. If you have weight, material, edge sharpness and flex standards, the thought was that at least the sport overall had some nominal standards to reduce possible injury should the feared "big lawsuit" ever come about.

The primary driving force behind the disc specs was fear of a lawsuit? That's somewhat shocking, especially considering the dangers inherent in other sports. It might also be quite wise, given that golf isn't played in public parks, nor is baseball, ice hockey, or other sports with far more dangerous equipment, and forward thinking in terms of not handcuffing disc golf from being widely accepted in those public parks. I'm just surprised it was SO highly prioritized.

Was "limiting discs to certain performance boundaries" third on the list after "safety" and "some level of uniformity"? Or do you consider "performance boundaries" to be the same thing as "uniformity"?

The max & min size standards had more to do with allowing the target manufacturer (DGA at the time) to know what they might be expected to catch and retain in the basket and not fall thru.

Okay. Thanks for sharing that.

The post production modification clause was inserted to make sure enough players would have access to some unknown new disc design tweak. That's why minimum production quantities were also in there. Apparently, some players were either getting or had in the past been getting access to new discs before their competitors, sometimes right before Worlds. The design advances at the time with the new beveled edge technology were enough that it mattered. It probably matters quite a bit less at this point now that many discs are bumping up against the spec limits. So as Ellis points out, no one is really afraid of someone tweaking a disc for an advantage. But the spec remains more for the competitive fairness issue where enough players should have access to some sort of tweak via the disc approval process and sufficient production quantities being available for player access.

Thanks for sharing all of that too. And I understand that the disc specs are more in the "tech specs for manufacturers" guidelines and rules than the true "rules," but I'm curious then how YOU feel about the rule change for 2013: given the culture of looking the other way or assuming there's some big grey area regarding modifications that alter the original flight characteristics (this "looking the other way" also seems to extend to discs that are over max weight), do you feel that the rule about a player questioning another player's disc's legality is a good rule or a bad rule?

It strikes me as a rule that's fraught with potential problems, particularly given that the letter of the rules are very clear about what makes a disc conforming or not. Or do you think it will not be a problem, because a) of the "look the other way" culture and b) the fact that Player A making that allegation of Player B would likely have Player B question all of Player A's discs, and then vice versa, resulting in mutual destruction?

If a player throws his disc into a thick bush but tries to take his next shot from the middle of the fairway I will stop him and tell him he cannot do this under the rules. The rules should prevent anyone from an unfair competitive advantage. But if a player is sneaking a beer at lunch in a park which is alcohol free I won't call the cops on him. He is breaking a rule which doesn't matter to the fairness of the competition. Some rules I just don't care about.

Laws and rules aren't exactly the same thing. I wouldn't call the cops on the beer drinker either, but we're not discussing laws, we're discussing the Rules. I might not agree with every Rule of Golf, but I don't take it upon myself to selectively enforce the ones I like or the ones I personally deem fair. You've said several times that you selectively enforce the rules. I don't think that's right - you have an obligation to protect the field as well (I've never encountered a rules violation in golf in a stroke play event, but if I had, I am obliged to enforce it to protect the field). I'm not the Rules Committee, nor are you.

Yet to you evidently every rule should be enforced (or re-written so it can be enforced). But you say YOU don't call players on rule violations.

I never said that. I said I've chosen not to in match play situations (the rules cover and allow for that, and not enforcing that is within the rules, as the only person it hurts is me). I've never encountered a rules violation in several hundred competitive rounds in stroke play. If I had, I'd have enforced it.

Why don't you call everything and make citizens arrests for every law you see broken anywhere in society? Why bother to write any rules if even you won't enforce them?

Again, laws and rules are not the same. Life isn't fair. Games have rules so that they're as fair as they can reasonably be, and it's not up to me (or you) to decide what's fair or not.

If someone jaywalks I couldn't care less - they're not "winning" at life by doing that, they've taken nothing from me nor gained any advantage over me. If someone plays with a disc that's too heavy, or a golf ball that is too hot that it exceeds the distance standards set in place, they'd have an advantage that would directly harm my ability to compete with them.

If you are correct about the new rule coming in 2013 then this sounds like a terrible rule.

It's on the PDGA site. I've linked to it elsewhere on this site, I believe. IIRC it's around post #70 on a thread I'm sure you can find.

My competitor makes his first 3 putts. I question the legality of his putter. Now he can't use it until a TD rules on it? Either a huge backlog occurs as the group waits for the TD to be located (he is playing in a group 3 holes in front of you but you don't know it) or the player is deprived the use of his disc. For all you guys who carry small bags this might be scary. And what is to stop me from questioning every disc in everyone's bag?

Precisely! I think it's a bad rule, and as I wrote above, it's built upon the foundation in which the vast majority of player's discs are probably illegal or on the verge of being illegal if you read the rules very very strictly.

And for any who believe in the STRICT enforcement of PDGA rules, what would happen if every Amateur player were called on every foot fault? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Perhaps they should. I'm glad you find that funny, but I'm not even playing in tournaments yet and I'm making darn sure I'm not foot faulting. I appreciate and respect your position in the game, Mark, but I would say that you don't get to decide which rules to enforce on whom and when. The best rules are the ones that are black and white and uniformly enforced. And if a rule is uniformly NOT enforced, then it should probably be removed or modified.

 

[iacas]

This thread could go on like this forever until there is a rule to cover every possible situation and those rules are enforced constantly by an endless supply of rules enforcing officials, or at least one official to follow every player in every sanctioned event. Are the current PDGA rules perfect? No, they are from from perfect, but a larger number of rules isn't better.

I'm not arguing for MORE rules. I simply believe that if you have a rule, it should be enforceable and enforced uniformly. If a rule is being ignored, it should be removed or rewritten.

I find more parallels between golf discs and the grips on a golf club than I do golf discs and the heads of golf clubs or golf balls.

There are several clauses which cover the legality of grips in the Rules of Golf. Golf equipment is an order of magnitude more complex than disc golf equipment, but I'm trying not to compare this to golf per se, just "rules" from other sports in general.

Disc golf is still playing, from where I'm standing, with a set of rules that are much closer to sandlot or playground rules rather than the true, established rules. Golfers by and large roll their golf balls, concede their own putts, and all sorts of stuff that isn't allowed during their casual rounds, just as there are varying rules for three-on-three basketball with one hoop, or sandlot baseball with four players on a side and no catcher, but those rules tighten up and get much longer at the top levels, and for people playing in sanctioned competitions, whether they're the NFL or high school football.

The disc specs came about for a variety of reasons with safety (read: liability) and some dimensional uniformity being the primary driving forces as the game evolved. If you have weight, material, edge sharpness and flex standards, the thought was that at least the sport overall had some nominal standards to reduce possible injury should the feared "big lawsuit" ever come about.

That's interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

So to be clear, you're saying that the primary driving force behind disc golf's equipment rules was not to set boundaries for disc performance, but to try to make the game as safe as possible? That boundaries for performance were second (or maybe third - depends on what you mean by "uniformity") behind safety.

I applaud the desire for safety. It makes sense, as disc golf is often played in public parks and not on established fields where people know that a baseball or hockey puck may come whizzing at their heads if they're not paying attention.

The max & min size standards had more to do with allowing the target manufacturer (DGA at the time) to know what they might be expected to catch and retain in the basket and not fall thru.

This seems to indicate that boundaries for performance is not included in the "uniformity" section, making that at least third on the list of priorities? Or have I read that wrong?

The post production modification clause was inserted to make sure enough players would have access to some unknown new disc design tweak. That's why minimum production quantities were also in there. Apparently, some players were either getting or had in the past been getting access to new discs before their competitors, sometimes right before Worlds. The design advances at the time with the new beveled edge technology were enough that it mattered. It probably matters quite a bit less at this point now that many discs are bumping up against the spec limits. So as Ellis points out, no one is really afraid of someone tweaking a disc for an advantage. But the spec remains more for the competitive fairness issue where enough players should have access to some sort of tweak via the disc approval process and sufficient production quantities being available for player access.

Thanks. I understand all of that, but don't you agree that a putter that's overweight is an advantage on a windy day? Do you agree that the Rules regarding post-production modification, as they're currently written, are not enforceable?

Again, if a rule is not followed, I suggest that it's a bad rule and should be removed or re-written. If disc golf isn't set up (i.e. doesn't have the money) to enforce some of these rules regarding modifications, why have 'em? Players can pour boiling water in their discs to flatten them or add dome, but they can't put a sticker with their name on the underside of the disc to keep the value higher for resale because a sticker has "detectable thickness"?

And I see Mark responded to it, but I'd like your take on what I consider the really stupid rule for 2013 about questioning the legality of another player's disc. Given the letter of the rules right now, is this not a potentially problematic rules change?

If a player throws his disc into a thick bush but tries to take his next shot from the middle of the fairway I will stop him and tell him he cannot do this under the rules. The rules should prevent anyone from an unfair competitive advantage. But if a player is sneaking a beer at lunch in a park which is alcohol free I won't call the cops on him. He is breaking a rule which doesn't matter to the fairness of the competition. Some rules I just don't care about.

Rules aren't the same as laws.

Life's not fair, but at the same time, a person jaywalking has not gained an advantage over me in the "game" of "life." They're not more likely to "win" at life because they jaywalked, or drank a beer in a non-alcohol zone. Conversely a player breaking a rule in a game HAS gained an advantage, he HAS affected my ability to win. Competition is zero-sum, life is not.

Yet to you evidently every rule should be enforced (or re-written so it can be enforced). But you say YOU don't call players on rule violations. Why don't you call everything and make citizens arrests for every law you see broken anywhere in society? Why bother to write any rules if even you won't enforce them?

Rules aren't laws.

And I never wrote that I didn't call players on rules violations. In match play situations I've not because ignoring them is still within the rules. The only person that potentially harms is me. If I'm putting for three from 20 feet and my opponent is lying four in the bunker, brushes the sand on his backstroke and splashes out to 25 feet, I'm not going to call the bunker violation because I'll win the hole regardless. That's perfectly acceptable under the Rules for match play.

In stroke play, however, I've never called a rules violation. That's not because I have decided not to, it's because I've never witnessed one. If I did, I'd call it. I have an obligation to protect the field. I will not hesitate to call a penalty should it ever occur in a stroke play event. That's not to say there haven't been penalties called. I've called two penalties on myself in several hundred rounds of stroke play competition, and I recall at least six other instances in which golfers called penalties on themselves. Had they not, I would have. I'm obligated to.

If you are correct about the new rule coming in 2013 then this sounds like a terrible rule. My competitor makes his first 3 putts. I question the legality of his putter. Now he can't use it until a TD rules on it? Either a huge backlog occurs as the group waits for the TD to be located (he is playing in a group 3 holes in front of you but you don't know it) or the player is deprived the use of his disc. For all you guys who carry small bags this might be scary. And what is to stop me from questioning every disc in everyone's bag?

Precisely. So we agree that it's a bad rule, particularly given the way the letter of the rules are written regarding what makes a disc legal or illegal, yes?

And for any who believe in the STRICT enforcement of PDGA rules, what would happen if every Amateur player were called on every foot fault? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why shouldn't they?

Why is this "look the other way" attitude so prevalent? If someone stepping to the side of that 30cm line that extends behind their marker is not "unfair" because they're not gaining any advantage, why isn't the rule changed to define the allowable region as a circle, triangle, square, rectangle, or some other shape? Something that's equally as fair but less likely to be missed accidentally and, again, providing no advantage?

Why not change the rules so that "the way they're commonly enforced" is how they actually read? Why not set disc and equipment rules that are enforceable?

From where I'm sitting, if a rule isn't enforceable, it's not a very good rule to begin with, and if players at the top level of the game (not the sandlot equivalent) are routinely ignoring a rule, then it too isn't a very good rule.

Do you agree with that?

P.S. Yes, "rules" discussions interest me, particularly in golf and disc golf where the rules are, by and large, self-enforced. I like that.

I play recreational hockey and there's no real honor code in that sport like there is in golf. We're a non-checking league (grrrr), but if I can hit someone a little bit and get away with it, I do it just like everyone else. The obligation to enforce the rules is not on the hockey players, it's on the refs. Disc golf and golf put that responsibility with the players themselves. That makes them unique and interesting to me - no other sports really do this. They all have officials.

 

[XCyclone]

Iacas, just curio, how many tournaments have you played in?

 

[JR]

Sometimes i wonder who the lawyer is iacas or mark Not pick a nit i have altered a couple of discs that i don't use in competition to see what they do. Achieving at least a part of the desired changes allowed me to throw better and score better so it would be a violation against the field in stroke play. A professional lawyer probably knows which battles to fight and when thus knowing why. I'm not defending the rules because just like anything they could be improved. A lot in this case. I do not wonder that a pro lawyer is not willing to fight everything in the rules if the benefits are not worth the hassle. There are rules problems that hurt the growth of the sport more. Like penalizing yourself is a hazard for betting.

 

[iacas]

Hundreds, flip. What's your point?

Sometimes i wonder who the lawyer is iacas or mark

As I said rules discussions interest me. Golf and disc golf pretty much stand alone (well, there are two of them anyway, but you know what I mean ) in the world of sport as having self-enforced rules. Every other sport is played "best" by trying to gain an advantage and trying to get away with it. I've always liked that golf is not that way.

I'm not defending the rules because just like anything they could be improved. A lot in this case.

I don't know how much they could be improved, but I agree they could be. So why aren't they? Why are people so reluctant to want to talk about how they could be improved?

There are rules problems that hurt the growth of the sport more. Like penalizing yourself is a hazard for betting.

Golf has players penalizing themselves and is one of the ultimate betting sports (the handicap system is almost geared towards betting).

I guess I'm just surprised at how different the attitude towards the rules is from golf to disc golf.

Whatever. Good night.

P.S. Here's the post with the 2013 rules thing, but there's also a brief mention of it in posts 10, 13, and maybe one or two more earlier in the thread: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1469987#post1469987 .