Schusterick close to falling putt?

[kerplunk]

I watched a couple of rounds of the Gentlemen's Club Challenge, and it struck me that Will's putt is very close to being a falling putt. He putts on one leg, then in one motion picks up his mini and swings his other leg forward. I know the point is to demonstrate balance before moving past your lie, and I really think he pushes it a little sometimes. I have a similar putting style (with lots more misses) and I sometimes find it harder to plant my other leg behind my lie than to reach down and get my mini and then walk forward.

So what do people think? Is Will pushing it a little, or is the long pause and the reach down to get his mini a good enough demonstration of balance? FWIW, no one on his card in either round I watched seemed to have a problem with it, so maybe I am way off here. But I am curious if others had the same thought I did.

7:15 in this video is a good example of what I am talking about. I think I saw him swing the leg through even earlier on a few other holes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni92M65bvQ8

 

[Aim For The Chains]

No. He picks up his mini and the disc was in the basket.

 

[mashnut]

No. He picks up his mini and the disc was in the basket.

The disc in the basket has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Nowhere in the rules about stance does it matter whether the disc has come to rest before you fall or step forward. The rule is you have to demonstrate balance before advancing toward the basket.

You can debate whether or not picking up the mini is demonstrating balance, but let's have that discussion based on actual rules, not old drunk guy at leagues rules.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

The disc in the basket has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Nowhere in the rules about stance does it matter whether the disc has come to rest before you fall or step forward. The rule is you have to demonstrate balance before advancing toward the basket.

You can debate whether or not picking up the mini is demonstrating balance, but let's have that discussion based on actual rules, not old drunk guy at leagues rules.

Chuck JUST posted a video on this. its not that hard and I don't play with drunks at any league. How does the disc coming to a rest not matter? hes clearly balanced throughout the putt and in no way falling towards the target. Mini is up, disc in and putt over.

Its not like its all happening as he lets the disc go. that was my point.

 

[mashnut]

Here's the rule in question with no mention of what the disc is doing. What the disc does is irrelevant after it's left your hand, whether it goes in the basket or whether it rolls away down a hill for 30 seconds. What matters is showing balance before moving toward the basket, not showing balance until the disc stops.

Putting: Any throw from within 10 meters of the target, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the target, is a putt. Supporting point contact closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc after the disc has been released is a stance violation. The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the target.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

So should he stand there like a statue for 10 seconds before going to get his putt out of the basket?

Clearly he shows balance in bending over on one leg to pick up the mini like I said. What hes doing actually demonstrates good balance-- try it.

 

[mashnut]

Please re-read my posts. I said that there's an argument to be made that he demonstrates balance. I simply pointed out that what the disc is doing is irrelevant to the discussion. I happen to agree that picking up the mini in a controlled way (i.e. not grabbing it as you fall forward) demonstrates balance. I just hate how often I hear things about the disc being at rest in discussions of falling putts.

 

[Allurex]

I've seen Will do this frequently over the last couple of years, since he cemented that putting style, anyways.

It always seems under control, and I believe is a fair display of balance. It's not like he's wildly falling over and just grabs his mini.

 

[teemkey]

QA 37: What is "Demonstrate Balance" for Putts?

Q: As I release a putt, I push off from my back foot so that after release I am balanced on my front foot. I typically freeze there for a couple of seconds, then swing my back foot forward and continue toward the hole. Is that a foot fault?

A: It's hard to say. Your group will have to make a judgment call. To demonstrate "full control of balance" the player must perform some action that breaks up the flow of movement toward the target after release, before proceeding toward the target. Some examples of actions that demonstrate balance might be: (1) a clear pause and display of balance, (2) placement of the back foot on the ground behind the mark, or (3) retrieval of the marker disc. The key to all of those is to show balance and control of your body behind the mark before moving forward. The best course of action is to leave no room for doubt, which is easy to do if you are indeed in control of your body after you've released the putt. Applicable Rules: 802.04 Throwing from a Stance.

Pretty clear in this case. Almost exactly in fact.

 

[Halcón]

That putt was as clean as a whistle.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Chuck JUST posted a video on this. its not that hard and I don't play with drunks at any league. How does the disc coming to a rest not matter? hes clearly balanced throughout the putt and in no way falling towards the target. Mini is up, disc in and putt over.

Its not like its all happening as he lets the disc go. that was my point.

Putt made or not does not matter, just whether the thrower demonstrates balance such as picking up the mini AND not falling. His actions were legal (barely) and the disc could have been rolling away on the ground. If you slow it down, it was close to two seconds from the time he released to the time he stepped on the ground in front of his mini. The RC seemed to feel like a two count beat in addition to remaining in balance before moving forward was sufficient. While his motion was right on the rzaor edge of legal from a timing standpoint, my suggestion would be that he add a little more visual break (0.5 sec) in his motion to avoid questions like this down the road.

 

[Horsman]

No. He picks up his mini and the disc was in the basket.
]

Couldn't be more wrong

 

[phimdel]

Feldberg explains in one of his videos that this IS a violation. I'll have dig to find it and post later though. He discussed that the back foot had to plant firmly on the ground behind the forward foot before one could progress to the basket. He even stated that lazily dragging your back foot on the ground past your forward foot didn't count.

 

[mashnut]

Feldberg explains in one of his videos that this IS a violation. I'll have dig to find it and post later though. He discussed that the back foot had to plant firmly on the ground behind the forward foot before one could progress to the basket. He even stated that lazily dragging your back foot on the ground past your forward foot didn't count.

As you can see a few posts up, the official rules committee Q&A disagrees. Feldberg was giving his opinion, not a definitive answer.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Putt made or not does not matter, just whether the thrower demonstrates balance such as picking up the mini AND not falling. His actions were legal (barely) and the disc could have been rolling away on the ground. If you slow it down, it was close to two seconds from the time he released to the time he stepped on the ground in front of his mini. The RC seemed to feel like a two count beat in addition to remaining in balance before moving forward was sufficient. While his motion was right on the rzaor edge of legal from a timing standpoint, my suggestion would be that he add a little more visual break (0.5 sec) in his motion to avoid questions like this down the road.

Why I said that was when you do slow it down, you clearly see he acknowledges the putt is made and grabs the mini to go get his putter.

yes it doesn't matter what happens per-say with the putt but to say hes not showing balance is almost laughable. its not like he lets go of the putt and looks straight down to grab the mini and moves to go get his disc.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Let's say he's reacting to the putt being made. If he threw it faster from a closer position so the putt was sunk maybe 300 milliseconds earlier and he moved 300 milliseconds earlier, it would appear to be a foot fault because he did not spend enough time to demonstrate balance, even if he didn't fall. Remember that one definition of walking is continuously losing then regaining balance as you place one foot in front of the other.

Walking by itself does not meet the definition for demonstrating balance. The RC has judged various videos that I posted. You'll see a few where I walk through without falling down but did not hesitate long enough. These were deemed a fault only because I spent less than two beats before proceeding past the mark.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

How does it differ much from the putt where you walk parallel with the basket? I guess I could see the argument better if he actually moved his foot behind the marker at all like we see with the "jump putt" debate. IMO the action of balancing on one foot itself and picking up the mini isn't a very easy thing to do and would look much worse if he were to put his other leg down and move like that where he supports himself at the ground with his hand picking up the marker.

 

[mashnut]

How does it differ much from the putt where you walk parallel with the basket? I guess I could see the argument better if he actually moved his foot behind the marker at all like we see with the "jump putt" debate. IMO the action of balancing on one foot itself and picking up the mini isn't a very easy thing to do and would look much worse if he were to put his other leg down and move like that where he supports himself at the ground with his hand picking up the marker.

By "parallel to the basket" I assume you mean walking at a right angle (perpendicular) to the line from the basket to your lie. In that case you don't advance closer to the pin in the process of walking through your lie so there's no violation.

 

[Harrishabitat]

As you can see a few posts up, the official rules committee Q&A disagrees. Feldberg was giving his opinion, not a definitive answer.

Yet Feldberg was on the board of directors when he posted that if I remember correctly. Hence the problem when you have a elected member of the PDGA AND the PDGA rules committee not agreeing.

Hence why I will always say, Judgement rules are NOT RULES!!! And why this is so frustrating because it would be so simple to clearly define the rule and not leave it up to ambiguity...but God knows why they don't.

 

[Agricolae]

Will's putt looked fine to me. It is possible, and not too difficult, to balance on one leg. "...must demonstrate full control of balance..." might seem to imply a period of time, but the rule says nothing about time. Chuck and the RC *suggest* 2 seconds. Two seconds is not required by the rule.