Short-arm Apex Pitch Putting

[RustyP1]

Hopefully the name makes sense

Decided to start a new thread dedicated to the Short-arm Apex Putting technique...how to, problems people are having with it, what tips helped it make sense to *you*, etc, etc.

I'll start off by pasting related posts from the "Wrist roll help" thread:

I used to putt with my thumb at 12 o'clock before the stroke, releasing close to 3 o'clock...which caused a lot of spin. That part was easy to fix: I just started with my thumb at 3, which forced the disc out of my hand with the thumb at/near 6 o'clock...I could immediately tell that this forced more of a push than a spin. However, I was still having trouble getting the nose down.

This past weekend Blake pointed out something that I had never noticed before...even though I was releasing with my hand pretty much at the back of the disc, I was rolling my wrist in upon release (thumb towards the ground) which was causing most of the nose-up. Blake demonstrated that the wrist needs to open outward(to the right for right-handers) almost 90-degrees with the forearm, with the index finger pointing slightly downward. With this stroke the disc comes out flat and dives nose-down as soon as it loses velocity...which made aiming at the apex much easier for me to understand. After throwing just 20-30 putts focusing on opening my wrist in the correct direction, I could already see a big improvement.

...hopefully I explained all of that right...

I'm assuming that Rusty's holding the disc, with the base of his thumb at 3 o'clock, not the tip.

As for a good push putter, Climo is a decent example.

Nope, I'm talking the tip of my thumb (fingerprint area)...but after putting practice last night I noticed that it wasn't quite at 3, but rather right in between 2 and 3. If the base of my thumb was at 3, the tip (where I'm putting pressure) would almost be at 12. If I had a camera I could take a picture of what I'm talking about...

So you hold/position your thumb almost parallel to your forearm?

Took a pic to show you how I hold my putter before release. For reference, assume that the "DISContinuum Disc Golf Club" text is perpendicular to the line pointing directly from the center of the disc to the basket.

You can see that my thumb is at about a 20 to 25-degree angle with the bottom half of my index finger, with the tip pressed just north of 3 o'clock. The swing starts between the crotch and belt line, almost touching the body, and should finish around belly-button height with the arm not fully extended (short arm pitch putt)...the whole swing should be on a straight line with the basket. Ideally, the disc should release when it's at belly-button height, but mine still comes out a little higher. At the point of release the thumb needs to be at or near 6 o'clock and the wrist needs to open outward (to the right for right-handers)...this will cause the disc to leave from near the bottom/back of the palm, forcing the nose down.

Blake had us practice this quick/short stroke from 10' in until we got the form right...then slowly moved out further. The next step is aiming-for / throwing-to the apex of the disc's flight and allowing it to dive nose-down from that point straight into the basket. This part just started to click for me last night, so I need some more practice before I can accurately describe it in a way that would be helpful.

I'm still a little fuzzy on this:

At the point of release the thumb needs to be at or near 6 o'clock and the wrist needs to open outward (to the right for right-handers)...this will cause the disc to leave from near the bottom/back of the palm, forcing the nose down.

Similar to rolling your wrist in on a drive?

Similar...but it feels more like uncocking the wrist abruptly...I guess I'm trying to say that with a distance drive I can't force wrist extension (it just happens), but on this putting motion I consciously open my wrist that direction.

Here's a pic that shows where the hand should be after the disc comes out (I had to take it in the bathroom at work...the only place I can simulate my putting swing over and over again without looking crazy ):

Saying that the thumb needs to be at 6 o'clock upon release might be a little inaccurate now that I think about it. Mine is probably closer to 5, but I'm focusing on trying to get to 6, which is what seems to be the trick for me. Also, in the pic above, my hand is a little higher than Blake recommended...should be a few inches lower for a true short-arm pitch putt.

I'm hoping Blake will chime in on this to make sure I'm explaining all of this correctly :?

you are explaining it correctly. once you get the feel for it the minor details like exactly where your thumb is, etc. become minor. the best example of this is probably the putts i threw when i just picked up the disc off the ground and immediately flung them while i was still lifting it up.

as for your arm height, that will change based upon how high you are trying to throw the putt. if you need to apex it 2' above the basket you will have a much higher release point than if you are just blasting it in from 8'.

regardless of what style of putting you use, the key is really getting your hand behind the disc (caused by extending your wrist).

 

[RustyP1]

The next step is aiming-for / throwing-to the apex of the disc's flight and allowing it to dive nose-down from that point straight into the basket.

the only thing i might change is this. i was putting nose down a lot by accident heh, basically poor timing due to lack of practice and putters that are heavier than i can comfortably pop hard on longer putts (heavier putters nose down more easily). a flat drop from the apex (due to gravity) is ideal. nose down works if you want it to drop more aggressively.

Got it. On longer putts (lets say 60-70'), where you have to apex several feet above the basket, will a putter that was released flat turn nose down on it's way into the basket, or should it (ideally) remain flat the entire time?

ideally flat. nose down will struggle to get there. the greater the nose down the faster the drop rate. you only really want to use nose down if you are going over an obstacle or you want it to die really quickly after passing at chain height on a miss.

at that range is also where you can add the 1 degree of hyzer or 1 degree of anhyzer trick i showed you.

if you are rolling over then either:

a) you are holding the disc at a greater hyzer angle than you are intending to release it. e.g. holding the left edge of the disc tilted down 30 degrees and then trying to launch it flat.

b) your putting stance has your shoulder orientation pointing to the right. that is, your right shoulder is ahead of your left shoulder.

adding spin won't add power.

increasing weight shift, height, etc. are what adds power. adding fingers to the rim also increases power. i use index and pinkey on the rim wall, adding more will add more power but make it more difficult to release the disc.

decreasing putter weight also helps in increasing carry.

as for putting, it doesn't really matter what it looks like at the start as long as it looks like the extended wrist position at the finish. spin should not be the emphasis.

wind wont affect the flight of the putt if you putt clean. The only thing wind might do, is push the disc more while in your hand, making it feel a little unstable. This has led me to miss putts, but I think its more due to bad putting technique than the light weight. But in my experience if you putt with confidence and power (Im not talking about smashing it in the chains, but if you look at the pros who pitchputt you will see that there is some power in them), then lighter weight shouldnt be an issue.

I dont want to go to low of a weight because wind would effect it though right? say 165 is low as i should go? I dont see how spin isnt an important roll?

mold is more important than weight to a point. 164 is about the lowest i'd recommend.
spin is only important in a sense that you don't want to put too little or too much on a putt. too much really isn't an issue since you can't spin it more than it "should" but the focus shouldn't be on trying to spin it. similarly the focus shoudln't be on trying to not spin it.

the way i see it is, i make zero effort to spin the disc, it just so happens to spin by the way i release it. how much spin is on the putter is dictated by how much finger spring you have, how many fingers you have on the rim, and how much rotation around the putter there is when you go from your starting point to the ejection point. if you putt with wrist extension at all, you will have "enough" spin and there's no need to attempt to add more. shifting the center of your grip around the putter towards 12 o'clock will increase spin, but you don't have to try to spin it more to get more spin, it just happens to spin more when your grip starts with more wrist bend.

attempting to add more spin won't really do much except for increasing the # of things that can go wrong during your putt.

 

[RustyP1]

Alright..I think that's everything from the other thread. It looks like we've covered everything involved with the actual putting stroke, so unless there are other questions I would think the apex-aiming technique would be the next natural part of this discussion...I've got some PMs that I sent to disc junkie that might help. I'll dig those out later and add some more here...

Discuss!

 

[jgillia]

Here is what I have in the 'ole pm box from chatting with RustyP

RustyP - "I've been posting about it on the "Wrist Roll Help" thread in the Technique section...so far I've only covered the grip and release, but haven't really touched on aiming the disc yet. Here's what I understand so far:

Once you have the proper grip & release (see the thread), the next step is putting TO (not through) the apex of the disc's flight. Blake explained it as an imaginary square suspended in the sky that you try to putt your disc TO (not through), then let the disc dive nose-down on it's own into the basket. For anythig inside 15', the square would actually be on the inner pole of the basket. Outside of that distance the square is usually at 60-75% of the distance from you to the basket...the height of the square goes up as the distance from the basket increases. Blake could stand at any given distance from the basket and immediately tell you exactly where the square is ...but I'm still learning that part.

So far, I can say that from 20' the square is about even with the top of the chains (ie - the "nubs"), from 25' it's about 4-6 inches above the top of the chains, from 30' it's around a foot, and from 40 it's about 14-18 inches above the chain assembly. Those are rough estimates...you should get a feel for the height of the square with practice.

Also, assuming that there's no wind (or negligible wind), the square will be placed dead center in-line with the basket, since the disc shouldn't have any left/right fade with the proper stroke. Lets say, as a lefty, you have a left-to-right wind...you'd just move the square to the left a bit to account for the distance the wind will push the disc to the right on it's way into the chains.

Let me know if that's a helpful explanation...if it is, I'll post it on the thread."

and - what is the apex you ask

RustyP - "The apex as I understand it is the highest point the disc reaches and also the point at which the power you initially put into the disc dies out and the disc just drops flat (still moving forward due to momentum, of course). That's why I kept saying that you putt TO, not through, the apex...if you try putting through it, you'll likely end up flying over the top of the basket.

Another thing to think about...when you learn to utilize the apex, work on it from about 18' in until it feels like second nature. Then, on putts outside that range you still only put roughly 18' worth of power behind the disc but aim higher so that the disc travels further after the apex...this helped a TON on those 40 footers last night. I still used the same stroke as my 15' putts, but released the disc a few inches higher and added a little jump. It's just much easier when you can use the same stroke every time and adjust the aim based on distance, rather than try to use different release techniques for every distance.

The great thing about it is that if done properly (ie -the disc remains flat all the way into the basket and flies on a straight line from you into the chains) this type of putt actually increases the size of the basket's "catching area"."

Lastly - how does the Beato putting video correspond

RustyP - "Alright...so, I watched Beato's vid, and it's *pretty much* exactly what I'm saying. However, I don't grip with a fan grip - mines more of a stack - and when he releases the disc his palm is facing more upwards than it should be...this is creating nose-down. You want your hand to open outward (to the left for you), not up or down.

Blake pointed out that I had a tendency to open my hand with the palm facing downwards...this was causing nose-up. Beato looks to be doing the exact opposite (palm up = nose down). Other than that it looks about right. He doesn't demonstrate any longer putts, which is where aiming above the basket comes into play, but you should be able to get a feel for that with some practice."

Thats the conversation between RustyP and myself Njoy

 

[Blake_T1]

Blake explained it as an imaginary square suspended in the sky that you try to putt your disc TO (not through), then let the disc dive nose-down on it's own into the basket.

i will add onto this. i don't even worry about the to/trough thing. attempting to get THROUGH the apex will inevitably have you putting nose down and doinking low.

the key is you want the disc to "descend" to the basket using natural gravity drop as it continues forwards via momentum. a flat putt will give the best carry without being bothered by the wind (nose up = gets taken for a ride).

the key to this is that everyone is money at 12'. if you can drill em from 12', you should be able to drill em from 20'. most people can hit a very small region at 12'. e.g. hit the number stripe on a pole on a mach II/V/chainstar. the window of hitting that stripe is about 4" in height and ~12-14" wide (even if you are left or right a bit, part of the disc will still hit the stripe). 12' is about the apex point for a 20' putt.

the "window" i try to hit is approximately 6" x 14". it's a rectangle. it's larger than the variance most people have on their 12' putts, so it should be easier to hit than the stripe. if you get it to the window, the putt is in. it's cake.

and when he releases the disc his palm is facing more upwards than it should be...this is creating nose-down. You want your hand to open outward (to the left for you), not up or down.

palm orientation AND where on the disc you let go dictates the nose angle. if you want nose down you can release with your palm up or from further behind the disc (e.g. 6 o'clock). for nose up you can release palm down or from the side/front of the disc (e.g. 2 o'clock).

similarly, palm orientation can be used to manipulate tweaks to the angle. palm down = anhyzer. palm up = hyzer.


THE ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL PART OF THIS ALL:
learn the drop rate of your putters. apexes change by model. apexes change by disc weight. apexes change in wind. apexes change with cleanliness of execution (if you botch your release, you need a higher apex). i would recommend learning drop rates of every putter in your bag, even discs you don't normally putt with. i carry 4-5 wizards. only 1 is a putter putter. other ones do get thrown on putts depending upon wind conditions, green speed, etc. however, i can putt with any of them and know their drop rates.

the more beat a putter, the slower the drop rate.
the more stable a putter, the slower the drop rate.
the lighter the putter, the slower the drop rate.
the softer the putter, the slower the drop rate (but this also has slower flight speed).

 

[masterbeato]

after about a year or more of working really really hard on my putting i just started working this technique into my own of what just seems natural and i only taken the most critical parts and the rest is my subconcious brain. i dont even have to pay attention to the apex anymore because i have burnt it into my brain and it just comes natural now to me so now its just a 2 second routine to make sure my grip is ok and my shoulders are good and then fire...boom 1-2 seconds sometimes less but no more than 2 seconds usually.

the reason why i havent 100% committed to this technique fully is because i would have driven myself insane from too much work on such a tedious aspect of the game. the main points i have concentrated on are these.....

wrist extension
hurky jurky wrist motions deleted
short arm pitch
acceleration
apex-aiming (which i do not even have to think about it anymore i know where it is already so i do not have to over think if at all think about it anymore)
punching arm more forwards than upwards
palm flat up (keeps the nose down a bit and how i like it + keeps the disc straight longer)

those are all the things i have learned and practiced really really hard on for the past year or more. everything else is mine.

the only thing i really have to worry about is make sure my grip and shoulders are correct, make sure i give it enough height to never miss low, and make sure to keep the disc as flat as possible.

 

[seanzerelli]

Just keeping my throwing shoulder from poking out more than my other got me most of the feel. Forced the technique on me I guess.

 

[masterbeato]

yeah that's one of the points i concentrate on...hence lining up my shoulders making sure their good to go!

 

[seanzerelli]

Actually right when I figured this out I realized why your stance looked different than that of everyone else on that video. Just an Oh moment.

 

[masterbeato]

everything is lined up dead-on to the pole of the basket. Blake taught me to line up in such a way that your shoulders should be square.

it's like you took the words right outa his mouth

 

[JKP21]

Actually right when I figured this out I realized why your stance looked different than that of everyone else on that video. Just an Oh moment.

what video?

 

[Beetard]

http://discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9990

This one

 

[Bugbee]

My Pops, an amazing ball golfer once showed me how he putts when we were mini golfing one summer. This really only applies if the green is flat to the hole. He told me to line up the two ends of the putter head with the two sides of the hole, forming an imaginary "road" to the basket. I don't know if this translates into text, but it makes sense to me when I go mini golfing. So I read this stuff last night and I start having flashbacks of greens and putters and making sure the putter head was square to the hole. I go outside this morning and take my turn at this style of disc golf putting and man I gotta say it worked wonders. I am not getting the correct amount of height a lot of the time, but the putts where all very straight, no flutter and had a lot of what I would call "pop." I just thought I would share that little story in the hopes that it helps someone gain some more understanding of shoulder position to the basket. Instead of trying to line myself up with the pole, I found it a lot easier to try to line each shoulder up with one side of the basket. The visual "road" seemed to appear when I felt like I was in the right place. All I had to do was project the disc down the "road" and it hit metal every single time pretty much. All I have to do now is practice the apex part of the putt and I should be money inside 30! (yeah, right.)

 

[sweeper]

I'm sure this is mentioned somewhere, but what causes the "flutter" when you are pitch putting? It only happens to me when I use smaller diameter discs, making me think its a grip thing.

 

[seanzerelli]

Your fingers most likely aren't coming off the disc at the same time. Its annoying, but I've seen Climo do it often and it doesn't really kill the accuracy.

 

[sweeper]

It doesn't seem to change how accurate the putt is, its just ugly and I don't like it.

And thanks for the info!

 

[Bradley Walker]

Blake's method is just like shooting a free throw.

Everything is square to the basket, and the elbow moves in to the center of the body as it extends. the wrist must open rapidly to get the hand in behind the disc. The elbow moves in tight during the pitch to accompany the centered motion.

Most people putt off the line of the shoulder. This is the old method for shooting Bullseye pistol used by the Army.

This forces the shoulder to close to line the arm up with the eye, many times coupled to rotary hip movement.

Blake's method uses completely static shoulder and hip positions. This is where you must start to learn this. Center up, square up, and stay there... I rock from my back foot and finish with my back foot up in the air to facilitate a weight shift, all the time never opening or closing the hips or shoulders.

Interestingly, this the new stance used by combat shooters. It has evolved into something that looks like Blake's method.

Look at the tucked elbows to get in behind the gun.

 

[Blake_T1]

due to the lack of extra motion, i will fully admit the weakness of my style is its range limit. at the same time though i will say that if you can hit nearly everything inside ~28' you'll be pretty much golden.

the number of strokes people lose by doinking inside 28' far outweigh the number of strokes people make up by hitting the occasional 35'+ putts.

2 things can cause flutter on a putt. having 1 or more fingers leaving late is one. the other big one is OAT. i teach keeping the disc flat the entire time because it allows for a pure putt. people that let an edge sag either nose down or into a hyzer/anhyzer position are more likely to get wobble on their putt if they try to launch it flat.

 

[sunspot]

Rusty showed me more about this putt yesterday. It felt somewhat awkward at first, but that's due to it being a new form.

Before I played today I went out and practice this putt. It helped me to get only a few feet away to feel the motion of the putt. After I got down practicing I played the best round that I've had, and it was all due to putting. I finally went under par.

I aimed for the small box and threw it at the box and my putts were going in. I was consistent on several putts. There were three situations that I would have normally missed, but I hit each one. I was amped. I was screaming "YEAH!!" a lot.

Granted, I have a lot of room for improvement, but the overall progress of that I've made due to this change is great.

Thanks Blake, Rusty, and all the guys at DGR.

BTW, there were some key things that I tried to focus on:

1. Elbow close to the body
2. Conscious effort to have thumb ending at 6 oclock (After a while it will be incidental)
3. Focus on the "thrust" of the palm. Like a palm strike in Karate.
4. Start from below the belt (crotch area) and finish around the belly button
5. Have the disc flat at all times.
6. Don't extend the elbow.
7. Start from a short distance and gradually work back.

Those are some of things that helped. Eventually I hope to have this down with great success. It will take some time but it's well worth it.

 

[C. B.1]

I'm really interested in this technique, but am having trouble getting it straight in my head.

I tried it in the backyard last night and for the life of me I don't understand how you can get enough power on the disc moving your hand only 12". I was standing inside 15' and couldn't get the disc to the basket. I tried to copy the Dan Beato putting video, but with no weight shit, not extending the arm/elbow, and moving the arm forward less than a foot, the disc flopped in front of me about 5 feet away. Maybe I was exaggerating how short the motion should be, but I tried to match the video.

RustyP, your descriptions have been pretty helpful. I noticed you had some video footage of your throws on the Critique section. If you get a chance, could you videotape more about what you're explaining? Show the form and motion and wrist movement. I'm so inconsistent at putting, i'm willing to try what's working for others.
Thanks