Short-arm Apex Pitch Putting

[EKG]

I've read the short arm putting instructional article at least 20 times. I'm glad that you all went into it in this thread with a little more detail.

I've had a lot of trouble trying to interpret the description of the arm motion. I cannot for the life of me figure out how you can get enough power and spin to start the pitch from the center of your body without massive wrist roll. The putt will go straight but half the time I get a lot of flutter. Right now it doesn't feel like I'm getting a clean release if I try to keep the arm in a continuous line which is probably because its super hard to generate power that way.

However, when watching Masterbeato's video it seems that the pitch starts from beside the body around the lower portion of the obliques. The disc really isn't "beside my body", its more like the outside rim of the disc is on the outside edge of my body. The rest of the arm motion description from this point forward makes a lot more sense. If I focus on releasing it before full arm extension from the center of my body its dead straight, no flutter with enough spin to hold the line. I always thought that there shouldn't be any lateral movement of the arm but after watching Masterbeato's video there clearly is lateral movement. I guess my interpretation of lateral movement is somewhat different than others? If that's the case, and there really is a little lateral movement the article is a bit misleading. The intention is to be linear, but in actuality there is minimal lateral movement (for power) and the last roughly 3/4's of the stroke is linear.

Wanted to also add that a good tip for learning finger spring is to take Blake's "tossing a textbook" example and apply it in a different way. What helped me was trying to visualize a putter being the cap on a coke bottle with imaginary threading on the inside wall of the rim to screw it on top of the bottle. From a stand still position, no rocking for weight shift, etc. (just trying to figure out finger spring!) throw it straight up in the air (think mini-elevator shot or the complete opposite of an air bounce). The intent of this is to get it to come straight back down that line and finish on top of the imaginary coke bottle (the spin should screw the cap back on). You should notice that if you don't get the correct amount of spin, the disc will not travel back down the straight line you originally threw it. In order to get the correct amount of spin you have to forcefully spin it with wrist roll. Eventually you wont have to force the spin, it will just happen naturally. If you learn how to do this in a straight up motion to figure out finger spring, you should be able learn how to do this in a straight out motion. Your arm is just finishing in a different position. Not sure if this will help anyone else, but it helped me.

 

[uNicedmeMan1]

Grolton?

 

[EKG]

Grolton?

yessir!

 

[MagPie]

Ive been reading Blake's article on short arm putting

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/shortarmputt.shtml

In the 4th picture, Blake says

"At this point Shawn has just started his weight shift forward and he is starting his pitch with a motion of the upper arm. If you focus on his wrist, the forward motion has caused momentum on the disc making his wrist is bend closed."

My question is, how closed is his wrist? RustyP wrote that my thumb should be around 3 o'clock, making my wrist open. Ive tried Blake's/Shawn's method and I am most comfortable when my wrist closes, then I extend and try to push out so my thumb ends up as close as possible to 6 o'clock.

If the disc is a clock, where is Shawn's thumb in the 4th picture? And where is your thumb supposed to be in that part of the putt?

 

[Blake_T1]

My question is, how closed is his wrist? RustyP wrote that my thumb should be around 3 o'clock, making my wrist open. Ive tried Blake's/Shawn's method and I am most comfortable when my wrist closes, then I extend and try to push out so my thumb ends up as close as possible to 6 o'clock.

If the disc is a clock, where is Shawn's thumb in the 4th picture? And where is your thumb supposed to be in that part of the putt?

maximum closure can be consistently performed at about 1:00-1:30. since i wrote that article, i no longer let the wrist close during motion, i start with it closed. the riccochet back gave a lot of inconsistency in starting points.

i start at 1:30, end at 4:30.

 

[MagPie]

My question is, how closed is his wrist? RustyP wrote that my thumb should be around 3 o'clock, making my wrist open. Ive tried Blake's/Shawn's method and I am most comfortable when my wrist closes, then I extend and try to push out so my thumb ends up as close as possible to 6 o'clock.

If the disc is a clock, where is Shawn's thumb in the 4th picture? And where is your thumb supposed to be in that part of the putt?

maximum closure can be consistently performed at about 1:00-1:30. since i wrote that article, i no longer let the wrist close during motion, i start with it closed. the riccochet back gave a lot of inconsistency in starting points.

i start at 1:30, end at 4:30.

I read something before (is it still true?) I shouldn't focus on not-spinning nor should i focus on spinning the disc. I should think of it more as a pop of the wrist? Ive been having most success with this. Am I correct?

 

[Blake_T1]

that is correct.

don't attempt to spin the disc.
don't attempt to not spin the disc.
don't attempt to shove the disc with your palm.
don't prevent yourself from shoving the disc with your palm.

it is more of a pop of the wrist with a coordinated removal of the finger tips off the disc.

the pop of the wrist generates a "nudge" off the palm. coordinated finger removal = finger spring.

the key point is that you release the disc from the same spot every time. starting point doesn't really matter as much. the higher up you start (closer to 12), the more potential pop you can get on it, but the harder it is to clear the wrist. the lower you start (closer to 3), the less potential pop you can get on it but, it's more consistent.

 

[MagPie]

the key point is that you release the disc from the same spot every time. starting point doesn't really matter as much. the higher up you start (closer to 12), the more potential pop you can get on it, but the harder it is to clear the wrist. the lower you start (closer to 3), the less potential pop you can get on it but, it's more consistent.

What is usually the unwanted result if you dont "clear the wrist"?

 

[seanzerelli]

I would assume missing putts to the left for right handed.

 

[Blake_T1]

What is usually the unwanted result if you dont "clear the wrist"?

3 common results (often a combination of these).
1. nose up.
2. misses to the left.
3. reduced pop/velocity on the putt.

 

[masterbeato]

blake has been teaching me this putt for like 2 years now and i still have not gotten it.

 

[sunspot]

I know while pitch putting you are suppose to keep the disc flat, but I've found that adding hyzer while incorporating the same ideas behind pitch putting has helped me become more consistent. My question is twofold:

1. Is this hybrid method okay to do?

2. Will it be make things worse in the long run?

 

[Blake_T1]

choice vs. necessity.

are you putting hyzer because you can't putt flat? if so, that is bad.
are you putting hyzer because you like it better than putting flat? that is ok.

one major advantage to putting flat is that it only requires adjustment for pure headwinds and tailwinds (height).

putting hyzer requires adjustment for crosswinds as well as head/tailwinds.

the second advantage of a flat putt is that you can have like 8' of range variance and still have a putt go in. hitting 2nd from the top link vs. barely squeaking over the front of the basket = in.
if your hyzer putt has any left/right play you only have ~3' of range variance where the putt is still good.

 

[sunspot]

are you putting hyzer because you can't putt flat? if so, that is bad.

If by flat you mean being consistent in sinking putts, then no. If by flat you mean able to do it, then yes.

I have some glimpse as to why I may be more inconsistent with the flat putt, and I think it has to do with accelerating. That and I tend to go up at the basket like a loft rather than at the basket like a line.

Getting all the mechanics to "click" is hard. Troubleshooting and knowing what to fix is even harder.

 

[Blake_T1]

If by flat you mean being consistent in sinking putts, then no. If by flat you mean able to do it, then yes.

flat as in the putts are flat... flat nose angle, flat hyzer/anhyzer angle.

the trajectory may be a slight arc.

I have some glimpse as to why I may be more inconsistent with the flat putt, and I think it has to do with accelerating. That and I tend to go up at the basket like a loft rather than at the basket like a line.

people tend to pull upwards rather than push outwards. often times i will stand next to someone and hold my arm out limiting how high they can bring up their arm. this usually helps, but once my arm is gone they almost always start gimping it immediately afterwards.

troubleshooting is easy. each "flaw" leads to tendencies for ~3 possible negative outcomes. if those negative outcomes show up, you just trace em back to the cause and fix that.

nose up left = not clearing the wrist before release.
nose up right = chasing with the right shoulder.
nose down right = releasing at or beyond max extension (hence, the short arm)
nose down straight = pulling upwards too much late in the motion/follow through.

etc.

i teach putting with no follow through to limit f-up factors.

 

[banzai7]

If I should be releasing at the same spot every time (which I try to do), how do you handle different elevation, short baskets, etc.

So say I release around 6" away from my waist and about 2" higher than my belt on level ground on a standard height basket from 15'. Now suppose I'm 3' lower than the basket or 3' higher than the basket but still 15' away. Or say the basket is set like a foot too low into the ground? How do I adjust? I tend to try to release a little lower or higher, but that usually results in a sucky putt (too nose down or miss left).

It's pretty hard to try to adjust the apex of a 15' putt...

 

[Blake_T1]

If I should be releasing at the same spot every time (which I try to do), how do you handle different elevation, short baskets, etc.

same spot = same hand position on the disc.
this is the one key that you find with pretty much all good putters... their hand positions are pretty much identical across all styles.

It's pretty hard to try to adjust the apex of a 15' putt...

i tend not to try to apex until i'm 15' or beyond.

 

[RustyP1]

nose down straight = pulling upwards too much late in the motion/follow through.

This is what I was struggling with over the past few months...anytime I focused on keeping the disc flat before release, I'd end up releasing it nose-down and I'd hit the basket 90% of the time. Over the past few weeks I've make some adjustments that seem to help. I still use this same basic putting method (aiming with the apex, short-arm pitch), but my stroke isn't the pure one that Blake taught at the Dallas clinic last year. I switched from a stagger stance to a straddle, and I tend to release with a little bit of hyzer, like sunspot mentioned. I'm able to putt flat, but I feel that I have better control when it comes to aiming if I release with a little hyzer.

I've also been struggling a little with extending my shoulder toward the basket and putting too high (same problem, different description maybe?). This is mostly on longer putts (35+) - I'm thinking it's because in practice I tend to come up short at those distances, so I consciously try to give them more power by extending my arm/shoulder.

 

[cmlasley]

I would assume missing putts to the left for right handed.

Ding! Thanks for that. That explains some issues I've had lately.

 

[EKG]

So I originally thought I had this technique down after working on it over the winter. I was actually spin (or what I call lunge or wrist) putting. I'm guessing that the mechanics up until the actual release of the disc are similiar which is probably why I was confused. Start at center of body, straight arm motion, make sure to clear wrist, etc. I didn't see the true pitch putt until a fellow competitor dropped in a 40 footer over a 20 foot tree. The disc behaved like someone shooting a big arc three pointer (with a ball). The disc didn't really deviate from flat because it had enough spin to hold it flat the entire way to the basket. It was an impressive shot to say the least. After seeing that and working on it for a while I'm starting to get pretty good at it. Spin putting feels like throwing a jab and apex putting feels like more of a lofted fling.

But like any other shot, the more I use it, the more I realize it has its advantages and disadvantages in certain situations.

Advantages: eliminates blow-by's, good for downhillers, if you're on you feel like you can hit them from 70+ effortlessly, it takes missing left/right out of play and becomes more about power (touch), good for tail and cross winds, good for going over top of obstacles, a true jump putt (spin putting is more of a lunge and step through when you get outside of the circle).

Disadvantages: may not be aggressive enough for your style of play (this is especially true for me), hard to judge the power and nose angle on uphillers, if you're off its going to be a frustrating day because you're just barely missing, not good for low ceilings, not good for head winds if you're having nose angle issues, not good in confined spaces (you need more room for this vs. a wrist putt), easy to be tentative under pressure.

So I guess my question is: Blake, you've mastered this technique but do you resort to other techniques in certain situations? Do you feel that its a good or bad thing to use multiple putting platforms or should you just stick to one?