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Shortening x-step and benefits?
- Thread starter Kjimsern
- Start date
TheOtherBill
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2010
- Messages
- 2,619
Marking this thread to watch - I've been working on a shorter, or even a one-step, x-step all winter without much progress.
You want to be able to squat and load into the rear hip while maintaining momentum, posture and balance. A longer cross-step just makes things more difficult.
This is what im feeling testing it out myself aswell, i think this might fix some issues balance wise.
Im already doing some heavy duty form work from Seabas but i stumbled upon this and i just wanna hear what experience people have with it.
Problem is that my form is shaped towards eagle/simon In early stages and now more towards AB in later stages ( we have same body type and ish hip mobility )
Eagle/simon makes the longer x step work but is it optimal?
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Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Focus more on the function and actions regardless of length to understand why length is an effect and not a cause.
Stillframes can lie, but your posture there looks a bit more uncomfortable than theirs, and my guess is they feel much more fluid letting their rear hip swivel back in transition whereas yours always looks a little more stuck or rigid. I also think you tend to get your body center of mass a little more trapped behind your X-step rather than slightly leading the stride like walking.
Since I've seen you struggle with this over time, I want to nudge you back to thinking about your problem as a walking issue, not a form issue.
If Eagle and Simon did seabas22 swivel stairs, they would probably feel like their move on flat ground is much more similar to that drill than yours.
A little hard for me to tell from your still frame but in general their body and pelvis look like they're moving a little more "downhill" overall than yours as their X-step lands just like seabas22 Hershyzer (this is still true of Simon even though his X-step changed a bit recently) posturally speaking. Always looks to me like yours just wants to stay flatter and doesn't want to relax and let gravity do some of the work. Their x-steps "look" less long once you understand what I'm talking about.
If you want to go to the extreme of minimal x-steps and still use an X-step, McBeth is a generally great example of a minimal X-step but maximizing his momentum and leverage out of the X-step in transition. The way his legs hips and posture carry and transfer the load while letting them work the way they're meant to naturally is still fairly uniquely top tier.
Stillframes can lie, but your posture there looks a bit more uncomfortable than theirs, and my guess is they feel much more fluid letting their rear hip swivel back in transition whereas yours always looks a little more stuck or rigid. I also think you tend to get your body center of mass a little more trapped behind your X-step rather than slightly leading the stride like walking.
Since I've seen you struggle with this over time, I want to nudge you back to thinking about your problem as a walking issue, not a form issue.
If Eagle and Simon did seabas22 swivel stairs, they would probably feel like their move on flat ground is much more similar to that drill than yours.
A little hard for me to tell from your still frame but in general their body and pelvis look like they're moving a little more "downhill" overall than yours as their X-step lands just like seabas22 Hershyzer (this is still true of Simon even though his X-step changed a bit recently) posturally speaking. Always looks to me like yours just wants to stay flatter and doesn't want to relax and let gravity do some of the work. Their x-steps "look" less long once you understand what I'm talking about.
If you want to go to the extreme of minimal x-steps and still use an X-step, McBeth is a generally great example of a minimal X-step but maximizing his momentum and leverage out of the X-step in transition. The way his legs hips and posture carry and transfer the load while letting them work the way they're meant to naturally is still fairly uniquely top tier.
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Yeah, i'm trapped behind the x-step. Its something im working on right now, so you are right about that.
Its been hard for me to fix ride the bull spine tilt problems this off season, i was hoping the smaller x-step would get me more infront and not trapped behind.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Yes- basically I'm hopefully agreeing with whatever Sidewinder told you, but trying to help you relax and find the connection to natural walking again. Your body probably does this just fine walking forward. You need to find the same action walking athletically sideways. But if you are too "reductive" about it you may never get it - try to learn from what it has in common with your natural frontal walk.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
One thing you might also try is messing with hershyzer getting a little higher or lower in the initial stanceand making the X as small as possible and as lateral as possible once you start moving getting your posture as "downhill" as you can manage. Compare that side by side with Swivel stairs on flat ground and the answer is somewhere in there.
You guys are usually saying the same things and he also said what you mentioned here before.
I just want to become the best thrower possible and im willing to do whatever it takes.
My last boss is that god damn spine tilt ride the bull.
You have helped me with this issue also but after trying for 5 months over and over again without getting it perfect, its tough for my mental health.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I have noticed this pattern too when people get too "sucked in." It's ok. It's fundamentally just throwing frisbees, and that should be fun.
When's the last time you just took a break from form? Might want to. Also consider that at a certain point, what would the problem really be for you if you didn't "fix" the movement and just focused on your skilled throwing? SW and I probably have our hypotheses about what your form issues are related to, but what if you just ignored that for a while?
If you feel like you want to tinker with one other thing, have you ever tried just emulating Kuoksa here around 3:15 focused on what it has in common with walking? Someone like Sw or I are probably not built for his exact move. Maybe you can glean something from changing strategies for a bit.
The ammount of training ive done the last 4 years is crazy to think about so i feel like i cant back out now, i have to keep going.
Its not gonna be that fun to play when you know your skill cealing is lower then it should be.
I also want to make both you and Andrew proud by just becomming this insane tossing machine.
I want the form to be almost perfect before i go across the big sea ( U.S)
But lets do something we havent done yet, let me ask you this question.
Is my form good enough?
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I was making lunch and feeling your comment so I wanted to come back with my clinical/sports psychologist cap on for a moment. Then I'll answer what you just posted, but you are missing my point if you don't read this first
Take a closer look at the first sentence you wrote in the quote above. What does that sentence mean to you? What if "whatever it takes" would kill you? What does "best thrower possible" mean to you? What is a reasonable guess at "best thrower possible"? I can't answer the first three questions, but I will take a stab at the fourth.
A while ago I got interested in learning everything I could about Expectations. I want to zoom you in on when I compared me and Heimburg. You can replace "how far" with "how well" you can throw (distance, skill, etc.). Fortunately I am me so I get to beat up on myself as a way of making my point to you:
I started disc golf at 35 with no throwing background, damage to both of my knees, have a poorly structured and initially had a poorly coordinated throwing body, and was literally in the midst of physical rehab because I couldn't physically stand up one-legged out of a chair. I was throwing like this:
Vimeo
And now I throw like this:
I don't know about you, but stepping back from that, I would be a very cruel self-critic indeed if I didn't give myself a hell of a lot of credit for hard work, and Sidewinder a hell of a lot of credit for sticking with what must be one of the if not the most frustrating case I've ever seen on this forum. And you know what? I'm kind of enjoying having an increasingly comfortable "old-school" form style myself even if I know there are other approaches out there.
You are much closer to Heimburg (or Eagle or Simon) in terms of the variables I mentioned in the Expectations video above than I was/am. I am going to restate that in a way that matters more to you. You are much closer to Eagle or Simon than almost all humans on the planet. I would rather throw like Eagle or Simon posturally, rhythmically, and mechanically, and to do so I would much rather have their bodies - including what they gained from starting very young - in terms of peak potential. It seems like you would at least to some extent too.
So let's get back to you - what is "possible" and how does that guide what is "reasonable?" In the same way I don't ever expect to be throwing a repeatable 500' no matter how hard I work, I would not expect you to be able to move exactly as well as Simon and Eagle in the absolute sense. Why not, and does it matter?
Why not?
They both started throwing young. Simon is an absurd case where he was throwing literally not long after he was walking. Of course his balance, rhythm, posture, sequence, leverage, and everything else are going to look and function better than almost everyone else, and by all accounts with very little practice for most of his life - just like you don't need to practice walking anymore, and any walking you do is reinforcing what you already do. You see the same effect if you have ever seen anyone try to learn to walk when they are outside their critical period of motor development - there is a reason people with developmental delays are never as balanced or fluid as people who stagger around as babies until their basal ganglia help them figure it out.
So why would you use Simon in his entirety as the objective? What I am asking is different than saying you cannot use him as your Platonic ideal - yes, to be the best thrower you can possibly be, you want to be as much of what you can learn from him as you can. But also yes, you should expect that your "possible" will be worn differently by your brain and body, and necessarily so. And that must be ok because it is true.
Does it matter?
So where does that land you? Kim, your form, throwing distance, rhythm, balance, athleticism, and persistence automatically put you in a very rare tier and very high potential ceiling. Why would you let trying to be Simon Lizotte - who no one else is, and who no one else can be exactly, get in the way of that? What is it you can learn from him that you can keep working on bit by bit while also excelling? What if always worrying about starting over means you never really get far from the starting line?
What if you just relaxed a bit about it all, and realized that the moon is not so far outside of arm's reach? What if you leaned into whatever else you were best at to help your learning a little more intuitively just like walking, which helps anyone at any level (Sidewinder or Ezra Aderhold swimming, me boxing>dance, McBeth baseball, Josh at Overthrow tennis, and so on)?
In the end, I cannot give you your goals. But my answer to:
Is "Yes." It is good enough because it is exactly where you are. You will always have something you can work on whether you want to be a competitive athlete or obsessive casual like me. Maybe it's time however to focus on defeating everyone else rather than yourself for a bit. You can keep learning to walk in the meantime. You will always get better at it if you take it a step at a time.
How are your upshots, placement shots, and putts going these days?
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I was making lunch and feeling your comment so I wanted to come back with my clinical/sports psychologist cap on for a moment. Then I'll answer what you just posted, but you are missing my point if you don't read this first
Take a closer look at the first sentence. What does that sentence mean to you? What if "whatever it takes" would kill you? What does "best thrower possible" mean to you? What is a reasonable guess at "best thrower possible"? I can't answer the first two questions, but I will take a stab at the third.
A while ago I got interested in learning everything I could about Expectations. I want to zoom you in on when I compared me and Heimburg. Fortunately I am me so I get to beat up on myself as a way of making my point to you:
I started disc golf at 35 with no throwing background, damage to both of my knees, have a poorly structured and initially had a poorly coordinated throwing body, and was literally in the midst of physical rehab because I couldn't physically stand up one-legged out of a chair. I was throwing like this:
Vimeo
vimeo.com
And now I throw like this:
I don't know about you, but stepping back from that, I would be a very cruel self-critic indeed if I didn't give myself a hell of a lot of credit for hard work, and Sidewinder a hell of a lot of credit for sticking with what must be one of the if not the most frustrating case I've ever seen on this forum. And you know what? I'm kind of enjoying having an increasingly comfortable "old-school" form style myself even if I know there are other approaches out there.
You are much closer to Heimburg (or Eagle or Simon) in terms of the variables I mentioned in the Expectations video above than I was/am. I am going to restate that in a way that matters more to you. You are much closer to Eagle or Simon than almost all humans on the planet. I would rather throw like Eagle or Simon posturally, rhythmically, and mechanically, and to do so I would much rather have their bodies - including what they gained from starting very young - in terms of peak potential. It seems like you would at least to some extent too.
So let's get back to you - what is "possible" and how does that guide what is "reasonable?" In the same way I don't ever expect to be throwing a repeatable 500' no matter how hard I work, I would not expect you to be able to move exactly as well as Simon and Eagle in the absolute sense. Why not, and does it matter?
Why not?
They both started throwing young. Simon is an absurd case where he was throwing literally not long after he was walking. Of course his balance, rhythm, posture, sequence, leverage, and everything else are going to look and function better than almost everyone else, and by all accounts with very little practice for most of his life - just like you don't need to practice walking anymore, and any walking you do is reinforcing what you already do. You see the same effect if you have ever seen anyone try to learn to walk when they are outside their critical period of motor development - there is a reason people with developmental delays are never as balanced or fluid as people who stagger around as babies until their basal ganglia help them figure it out.
So why would you use Simon in his entirety as the objective? What I am asking is different than saying you cannot use him as your Platonic ideal - yes, to be the best thrower you can possibly be, you want to be as much of what you can learn from him as you can. But also yes, you should expect that your "possible" will be worn differently by your brain and body, and necessarily so. And that must be ok because it is true.
Does it matter?
So where does that land you? Kim, your form, throwing distance, rhythm, balance, athleticism, and persistence automatically put you in a very rare tier and very high potential ceiling. Why would you let trying to be Simon Lizotte - who no one else is, and who no one else can be exactly, get in the way of that? What is it you can learn from him that you can keep working on bit by bit while also excelling? What if always worrying about starting over means you never really get far from the starting line?
What if you just relaxed a bit about it all, and realized that the moon is not so far outside of arm's reach? What if you leaned into whatever else you were best at to help your learning a little more intuitively just like walking, which helps anyone at any level (Sidewinder or Ezra Aderhold swimming, me boxing>dance, McBeth baseball, Josh at Overthrow tennis, and so on)?
In the end, I cannot give you your goals. But my answer to:
Is "Yes." It is good enough because it is exactly where you are. You will always have something you can work on whether you want to be a competitive athlete or obsessive casual like me. Maybe it's time however to focus on defeating everyone else rather than yourself for a bit. You can keep learning to walk in the meantime.
How are your upshots, placement shots, and putts going these days?
This was a good read for me, a little emotional also. ( dont ask me why)
I could only watch one of the links you shared but i can imagine the efforts you have put and you could probably relate to me in many ways even though we are buildt differently.
You are a great guy and i have massive respect for both you and Andrew, really.
this whole off season has been hard work, i joined multiple clubs to play putting leagues for practice and ive spendt alot of time with forehand approach ( with putters ) and backloaded power grip for approaches. These parts of my game has become my strenght strangely, now its more about the finishing touches for my form so i can invest more time on the courses before the season starts.
Im going to spain to training camp with the national winner in discgolf here in norway in a week, so im pushing where i can.
i remmember watching the expectations video when it came out and i do like it, it makes life more enjoyable to live when you have balanced goals.
I will still do all the drills on repeat that andrew has produced and work hard because i love working towards something. ( childhood trauma cooping mechanism, long story short )
People think i have autism, but im just a guy with a dream.
Thanks for taking your time to write all of this, it was nice.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Me too, my friend, and you're welcome. I hope you are able to look back to it and find something helpful from time to time going forward.
I fixed the videos above (hopefully) if it matters to you to look. In any case, it's always good to remind ourselves of how far we have come since we always tend to be so focused on where we want to go.
You know what we thought about form, so I will finish by changing gears one last time. You can and should walk away from these questions for now if that is better/healthier for you <3
When ready, tell me a little more about your drives now.
Current Avg MPH and/or distance at 80% power and 100% power?
How are your C1 & C2 in reg stats?
Lines you are most and least comfortable with?
What is the farthest range you feel confident in an open field that you will hit C1 7 times out of 10?
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Its so early in the year so im not sure where i am right now.
We dont use c1 or c2 reg stats so much i dont have anything for you there either.
I can throw 500 feet with 80%
And im pretty sure i can throw 700 feet with 360 and decent wind ( i already throw 680 on video with bad 360 form) i trained 360 form and asked wiggins for advice so now its so much better.
my furthest range to hit c1 comfortable 7 times out of 10 attempt is around 400 feet ( hyzer spike with overstable fairway, only backhand though)
Getting speed gun soon, so i can check it out soon.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
500' at 80% BH already puts you in the ultra-elite company, so I would be minding coursecraft while continuing to work on "learning to walk" in the long run
If you don't pair the form intentions with the valuable outcomes it can backfire.
500' at 80% BH already puts you in the ultra-elite company, so I would be minding coursecraft while continuing to work on "learning to walk" in the long run
If you don't pair the form intentions with the valuable outcomes it can backfire.
« If you don't pair the form intentions with the valuable outcomes it can backfire »
What does that mean, im norwegian so my english is not that great and i feel like i have to understand this.
Could you explain it to me?
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
At your stage, you need to pair your goal in form (learn the last bits of "walking") with the goal that matters now (getting your shots were you want them to go, and more than your competitors)
I was making lunch and feeling your comment so I wanted to come back with my clinical/sports psychologist cap on for a moment. Then I'll answer what you just posted, but you are missing my point if you don't read this first
Take a closer look at the first sentence you wrote in the quote above. What does that sentence mean to you? What if "whatever it takes" would kill you? What does "best thrower possible" mean to you? What is a reasonable guess at "best thrower possible"? I can't answer the first three questions, but I will take a stab at the fourth.
A while ago I got interested in learning everything I could about Expectations. I want to zoom you in on when I compared me and Heimburg. You can replace "how far" with "how well" you can throw (distance, skill, etc.). Fortunately I am me so I get to beat up on myself as a way of making my point to you:
I started disc golf at 35 with no throwing background, damage to both of my knees, have a poorly structured and initially had a poorly coordinated throwing body, and was literally in the midst of physical rehab because I couldn't physically stand up one-legged out of a chair. I was throwing like this:
Vimeo
And now I throw like this:
I don't know about you, but stepping back from that, I would be a very cruel self-critic indeed if I didn't give myself a hell of a lot of credit for hard work, and Sidewinder a hell of a lot of credit for sticking with what must be one of the if not the most frustrating case I've ever seen on this forum. And you know what? I'm kind of enjoying having an increasingly comfortable "old-school" form style myself even if I know there are other approaches out there.
You are much closer to Heimburg (or Eagle or Simon) in terms of the variables I mentioned in the Expectations video above than I was/am. I am going to restate that in a way that matters more to you. You are much closer to Eagle or Simon than almost all humans on the planet. I would rather throw like Eagle or Simon posturally, rhythmically, and mechanically, and to do so I would much rather have their bodies - including what they gained from starting very young - in terms of peak potential. It seems like you would at least to some extent too.
So let's get back to you - what is "possible" and how does that guide what is "reasonable?" In the same way I don't ever expect to be throwing a repeatable 500' no matter how hard I work, I would not expect you to be able to move exactly as well as Simon and Eagle in the absolute sense. Why not, and does it matter?
Why not?
They both started throwing young. Simon is an absurd case where he was throwing literally not long after he was walking. Of course his balance, rhythm, posture, sequence, leverage, and everything else are going to look and function better than almost everyone else, and by all accounts with very little practice for most of his life - just like you don't need to practice walking anymore, and any walking you do is reinforcing what you already do. You see the same effect if you have ever seen anyone try to learn to walk when they are outside their critical period of motor development - there is a reason people with developmental delays are never as balanced or fluid as people who stagger around as babies until their basal ganglia help them figure it out.
So why would you use Simon in his entirety as the objective? What I am asking is different than saying you cannot use him as your Platonic ideal - yes, to be the best thrower you can possibly be, you want to be as much of what you can learn from him as you can. But also yes, you should expect that your "possible" will be worn differently by your brain and body, and necessarily so. And that must be ok because it is true.
Does it matter?
So where does that land you? Kim, your form, throwing distance, rhythm, balance, athleticism, and persistence automatically put you in a very rare tier and very high potential ceiling. Why would you let trying to be Simon Lizotte - who no one else is, and who no one else can be exactly, get in the way of that? What is it you can learn from him that you can keep working on bit by bit while also excelling? What if always worrying about starting over means you never really get far from the starting line?
What if you just relaxed a bit about it all, and realized that the moon is not so far outside of arm's reach? What if you leaned into whatever else you were best at to help your learning a little more intuitively just like walking, which helps anyone at any level (Sidewinder or Ezra Aderhold swimming, me boxing>dance, McBeth baseball, Josh at Overthrow tennis, and so on)?
In the end, I cannot give you your goals. But my answer to:
Is "Yes." It is good enough because it is exactly where you are. You will always have something you can work on whether you want to be a competitive athlete or obsessive casual like me. Maybe it's time however to focus on defeating everyone else rather than yourself for a bit. You can keep learning to walk in the meantime. You will always get better at it if you take it a step at a time.
How are your upshots, placement shots, and putts going these days?
Wow! That is deep stuff.
I am and never will be near your level at DG. You are doing amazing things, at an amazing level - just make sure you enjoy the journey! Some times it is so easy for us to focus so much on the destination, that we fail to enjoy the journey. I say this from spending over 25 years as a landlord, and getting extremely good at it, and now I enjoy the journey, but I look back, and so much more, in the accumulation years, I wish I had focused less on the goal, and more on enjoying the journey. If I had a redo, the one thing I would change was to make sure I enjoyed the journey more - that I slowed down and celebrated little victories along the way - it would have been okay to sacrifice a little bit of my focus on the goal, to love and embrace the process more. I am proud of what I accomplished, but there is no reset button where I could enjoy it more along the way. I wish my journey was a little less of a grind towards the destination, and a little more of a celebration of the process. Best wishes on your journey.
