Should ams receive payouts?

[bradharris]

Yeah that was the only point i was trying to make. That I've attended more expensive competitions that pay out nothing but are still packed with people eager to compete. I realize that MA tournaments have many more expenses than a disc golf tournament.

The problem with this comparison is that tournaments are really the only chance to put your skills to the test in those other sports. In disc golf, the tournament experience ultimately isn't that much different from league or casual play.

Because of this, TDs need to find ways to elevate the tournament experience so that players are willing to pay to enter their tournaments. The easiest way to do this is through players packs or lucrative prizes.

 

[iacas]

The problem with this comparison is that tournaments are really the only chance to put your skills to the test in those other sports. In disc golf, the tournament experience ultimately isn't that much different from league or casual play.

I disagree, and cite golf as an example that refutes what you've said. You can "put your skills to the test" all the time, alone if you'd like. Yet people gladly pay to play in tournaments.

I disagree that the "tournament experience" isn't that different than casual play, too, and if it's not, then it's a pretty lousy tournament.

 

[coupe]

The problem with this comparison is that tournaments are really the only chance to put your skills to the test against those beyond your league/dojo in those other sports.

FTFY.

 

[bradharris]

I disagree, and cite golf as an example that refutes what you've said. You can "put your skills to the test" all the time, alone if you'd like. Yet people gladly pay to play in tournaments.

I disagree that the "tournament experience" isn't that different than casual play, too, and if it's not, then it's a pretty lousy tournament.

How do tournament entry fees compare to normal greens fees in golf?

And certainly the tournament experience can vary based on the event. There are some that provide nice value while others really feel no different than casual league play.

 

[DavidSauls]

Going back to 1985, every club I've been involved in's leagues, doubles, monthlies, non-sanctioned tournaments, etc., paid out/pays out AMs, either in cash or merch. In fact, the chance to win cash/merch is often the first thing mentioned to newbies to try to entice them into playing local events, and the thing that attracts them in the first place. So by the time they get around to PDGA-sanctioned play, they've been trained to expect a payout for finishing well.

I had never thought of that, but there's certainly some truth in it.

Your "PDGA-mandated" phrase brings to mind the fact that this same basic model seems to be in place in the anti-PDGA Southern Nationals area, as well as a great number of non-sanctioned events as well. Places where the PDGA mandates nothing, and it would be much easier for TDs to offer an alternative.

 

[KDFrosty]

If I'm running a tournament, best case scenario, hypothetically, perfect world, etc. etc.

1 day, 2 rounds of 18

$40 entry fee for all AMs, $70 for all Pros

100% payout for Pros, including whatever added cash (probably a C-Tier with $1000 or so added)

Trophy only for AMs. Your entry fee includes a tournament dri-fit shirt, a tournament star disc (get 3-4 molds to choose from), a buffet lunch, and plenty of water around the course. What are you competing for? handmade trophies or dyed discs for top 3 finishers in big divisions, winner only in small divisions.

Ideally, this would draw the full 72 player pool and fill up a week in advance. 15 MPO, 15 MA1, 15 MA2, 10 MA3, 5 FPO, 5 MM1, and the rest distributed between AdvMasters, AdvGrand, AdvWomen, etc.

MPO would pay out top 5, MM1 top 2, the others as needed.

I am NOT saying I could go out and do this any weekend of the year. This would be my ideal tournament if I was TD. I would hopefully be able to cover most of the expenses before the tournament even started and have enough money where I can buy things for the tournament last minute if needed. I wouldn't necessarily want any profit, but I would like to compete.

This is very similar to a tournament I am hosting 8/3/13.
The New Mexico Open (The NMO), a one day two rounds of 18 C-tier.
I was a bit nervous about hosting a trophy only tournament for AMs, but this thread has put me at ease a bit.
Pro divisions pay 100% cash only. Am divisions average entry fee is $41.25, get a big players pack and trophy only for 1st and 2nd place in each division. AM players packs include tourney stamped long sleeve dri-fit, custom stamped disc + mini, a PIAS mini, paracord zipper pulls (4) and birdie beads, Bearded Bros energy bars, reusable pressure putting and scorecards, and Sore No More pain relieving products. Still looking for extra stuff to include in the players packs, particularly delivered lunch.
Trophies for the 8 AM divisions are twisted handblown glass sculptures standing 9+" tall. Still trying to figure out second place trophies...considering DD Dyemax discs.
Players party and awards ceremony to be held at a local micro-brewery/restaurant that will be holding a free tasting for those over 21 years old.

 

[wake911]

Trophy only.

I've noticed more and more complaining about payouts and players packs from some of the ams over the years. I feel like they have become accustomed to getting more and more. When they don't get what they feel they are entitled to, some of them will piss and moan about it. Additionally, it just adds burden to already stressed and busy TD's. Finally, I think there needs to be more of an incentive to make the leap from am to pro. I have a feeling that these super ams are going to become more and more common under the current structure. I've just now started to become conscious that the current system encourages lifetime ams, and "bagging".

agree 100% with this entire statement.

 

[iacas]

How do tournament entry fees compare to normal greens fees in golf?

They're 2-3x higher than the greens fee, and about 200% of the total costs (F&B, golf, carts, small prizes).

Golf tournaments - the ones not run "for members" like the club championship, etc. (which is a perk of membership, and don't tend to offer cost prizes) - are typically staged for charity, so in order to be successful they need to raise money (i.e. be profitable) for the charity.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

This is very similar to a tournament I am hosting 8/3/13.
The New Mexico Open (The NMO), a one day two rounds of 18 C-tier.
I was a bit nervous about hosting a trophy only tournament for AMs, but this thread has put me at ease a bit.
Pro divisions pay 100% cash only. Am divisions average entry fee is $41.25, get a big players pack and trophy only for 1st and 2nd place in each division. AM players packs include tourney stamped long sleeve dri-fit, custom stamped disc + mini, a PIAS mini, paracord zipper pulls (4) and birdie beads, Bearded Bros energy bars, reusable pressure putting and scorecards, and Sore No More pain relieving products. Still looking for extra stuff to include in the players packs, particularly delivered lunch.
Trophies for the 8 AM divisions are twisted handblown glass sculptures standing 9+" tall. Still trying to figure out second place trophies...considering DD Dyemax discs.
Players party and awards ceremony to be held at a local micro-brewery/restaurant that will be holding a free tasting for those over 21 years old.

that sounds like the most incredible tournament experience I could imagine

 

[DavidSauls]

I don't want to be misread that I don't think trophy-only events will work. I've known of some that were quite successful. Those particular events had the virtues of being run on some very special courses, so the location itself was quite a payout.

It's also instructive that, over the years, those same events changed over to standard payouts.

 

[garublador]

Food for thought (very simplified):

50 Ams at a tournament. TD choosing between a $15 entry fee, no players pack or prizes; or a $40 entry fee, 100% payout at retail value in some combination of players pack and prizes.

If he chooses the $15 route, he takes in $750, which he can use to pay tournament expenses. What's left, he can keep or add to the Pro purse, or the club can keep for course improvements.

The Ams get to play in a tournament, a great value, but nothing else.

If he chooses the $40 route, the Ams pay $2,000. He gives out $2,000 (at retail) in players packs and prizes. He paid, oh, 60-65% of that cost at wholesale; say, $1,250. So he has $750, which he can use to pay for tournament expenses. What's left, he can keep or add to the Pro purse, or the club can keep for course improvements.

The Ams have paid in $2,000, get to play in a tournament (a great value), and get their entire entry back (at retail).

So the TD comes out the same either way, and the players come out better under the $40, merch-payout system.

So in that example, the TD can charge the AM's half as much for a trophy only tournament and come out ahead compared to having to pay them merch to play. And that's not supposed to be an argument for trophy only for AMs?

And that's if the attendance is the same. If the TD selects the $15, trophy-only system and fewer players show up, it's a loss all around.

And if more show up then he's ahead. Again, there are literally dozens of sports and activities out there that are more popular than disc golf and that don't have to pay AM's to play.

 

[coupe]

Your "PDGA-mandated" phrase brings to mind the fact that this same basic model seems to be in place in the anti-PDGA Southern Nationals area, as well as a great number of non-sanctioned events as well. Places where the PDGA mandates nothing, and it would be much easier for TDs to offer an alternative.

(Can you say, "sheeple"? )

Yes, it would be easier to offer a different payout model (including no payout), but it would also be a lot more risky.

The thing the PDGA's payout model has going for it is a nearly 40 year track record of attracting and retaining players.

As you noted, players vote with their feet and their wallets, and if the decidedly underwhelming buy-in to past attempts to offer a reduced entry fee, trophy only option is any indication, it's clear that AMs overwhelmingly prefer the current high entry fee, high payout model.

 

[DavidSauls]

So in that example, the TD can charge the AM's half as much for a trophy only tournament and come out ahead compared to having to pay them merch to play. And that's not supposed to be an argument for trophy only for AMs?

And if more show up then he's ahead. Again, there are literally dozens of sports and activities out there that are more popular than disc golf and that don't have to pay AM's to play.

Yes. If the TD charges half as much, and the same number of players show up, he'll come out ahead.

The perception is that fewer Ams will show up, not more, but of course we won't know until someone tries.

All true about the other sports. But we're not competing with other sports. Disc golfers aren't making a decision between attending a disc golf tournament, and a 5K run. For the most part, they're making the decision between two disc golf tournaments, or between a disc golf tournament, and just casual play.

 

[DavidSauls]

Perhaps interesting, perhaps surprising to some, but Harold Duvall has been compaigning for, and sometimes running, trophy-only events for as long as I can remember. He was behind the trophy-only events I was thinking of earlier.

It occurs to me that I have actually seen a lot more successful trophy-only events than I first thought---the charity fundraisers. Around here you can run a charity event with a modest entry and little or no payout. If it's on a good course, turnout will be pretty good---even pros show up.

Hmmm.

 

[coupe]

I don't want to be misread that I don't think trophy-only events will work. I've known of some that were quite successful. Those particular events had the virtues of being run on some very special courses, so the location itself was quite a payout.

It's also instructive that, over the years, those same events changed over to standard payouts.

That's part of the problem: most people will pay once or twice for the novelty or the "experience." Once the novelty's worn off, how do you get them to come back?

 

[turbosteve]

Perhaps interesting, perhaps surprising to some, but Harold Duvall has been compaigning for, and sometimes running, trophy-only events for as long as I can remember. He was behind the trophy-only events I was thinking of earlier.

It occurs to me that I have actually seen a lot more successful trophy-only events than I first thought---the charity fundraisers. Around here you can run a charity event with a modest entry and little or no payout. If it's on a good course, turnout will be pretty good---even pros show up.

Hmmm.

That's the key. Charity fundraisers give disc golfers a reason to compete in tournaments and are easier to get sponsors.

 

[krupicka]

We offer trophy only ($20 gets you a $15 player pack plus a chance at divisional CTPs) as a reduced entry fee option. We only get 2-4% of players taking that option over the regular I-want-to-win-plastic entry fee of $30.

 

[garublador]

So what you're saying is we should start a completely seperate ADGA and basically ruin the PDGA because without us Ams the PDGA is nothing.

So you're saying local leagues are ruining the PDGA? They're competing in the exact same way.

I think most of us like winning things, if they go against us that would probably be a big mistake.

I notice people pop in and say stuff like this but they never answer to any of the examples of the super popular sports and activities that don't offer prizes to AMs. Is running for an hour so much more fun than disc golf that people are willing to spend $40 to do it with no chance of a payout where as in disc golf you have to bribe people to compete? In every M:TG tournament I've been to nearly everyone can tell you who the top 8 will be before the tournament even starts and the rest know they won't get anything. There's just no evidence supporting that claim. What sport was on the brink of becoming popular but was held back because skill protected players weren't given payouts? How come the people that say it won't affect attendance can list off many examples but those that say it will affect attendance can't list any?

I already have more fun playing local non sanctioned events and it costs less and I can win cash or merch if I do well.

And that's the point of local leagues. You aren't measuring yourself against all other disc golfers, just the ones in your extremely limited player pool. The PDGA is meant to compare you to a much larger pool and that's the point.

If the PDGA goes down the trophy only avenue I'll probably stop playing in their events. It costs to much in comparison to the competition to not get anything out of it but super long rounds of disc golf.

And every bit of evidence anyone has ever given shows that you are in the minority. It would obviously cost less because the TD wouldn't need to fun prizes for the AM's.

The PDGA probably does need AM's to fund pro purses, but no one has given any shred of evidence that this means that AM's need prizes for sucking a specific amount. DavidSauls own numbers show that you can charge them some fraction (in his example, half) of what you do now and come out ahead. In every activity anyone has been able to name so far very few AM's expect to win anything, let along enough to justify how much they paid to play. Only a few expect to win. Most know they won't do well enough to place.

 

[turbosteve]

In January about 100 people played in the IDGC Ice Bowl even though the tournament director said payouts would be low so they could raise more money. Several people from Columbia made the trip to play in the tournament.

 

[rj29274]

No, but every AM should receive a killer player pack and top 3 should get a trophy of some kind.

Imagine if events had 50-60 "Open" players and the top 20-25 got some cash. . .instead of taking 5th in advanced, you take 17th in Open

Of course, every state has different levels of competition. 970 golf will get you cash in AZ