Should ams receive payouts?

[coupe]

The concept of payouts is new to me personally. I have competed in jiu jitsu and submission grappling tournaments for a number of years which i think is decent basis for comparison (niche sport, lots of passionate competitors). Typically entry fees for these are 80-120 bucks, you cut weight, fight 3-8 times, and if you place you get a medal around your neck. This is true all the way to the open men's division.

Having been involved on the organizing side of several martial arts and various sports tournaments over the years, I don't think most sports tournaments are a valid basis for comparison.

For one thing, tournaments for most sports typically have significant expenses that most disc golf tournaments doesn't have: paid officials and rental of the venue being the most obvious. On top of the rental fee, venues typically charge for event and security staff (mandatory, and often at overtime rates), and many also require renters to use and pay for venue-owned equipment (tables, chairs, electrical equipment, signage, etc.) and services (set up, dismantling, janitorial, food, traffic/parking, etc.). Rental fees for a even a small venue can easily run into the thousands of dollars for a two day tournament, and it's not unusual for the event services fees to run into 5 figures. And private venues typically have much higher and much more stringent liability insurance requirements.

Other than NTs, Majors, and maybe a handful of top tier tournaments, I don't think expenses for disc golf come anywhere close to those numbers.

 

[garublador]

Several other sports do similiar things also. I have played in many volleyball and basketball tournies. Always gotten a tee shirt or something for winning and most the time everyone gets something for being a part of the tournament. Most of us will never be pro players.

Two things:

One, how many of those events are sanctioned by the professional association for those sports? You aren't playing basketball at an NBA event. The local beach volleyball tournaments probably aren't AVP events.

Two, a tee shirt is a trophy. It's just one you can wear. A token disc with a custom stamp is another example of a trophy. People who want trophy only mostly don't want the winners to come out ahead compared to their entry fee. Paying $20 and then winning a $100 portable basket is the same as winning money. Paying $15 and then winning a $10 tee shirt is winning a trophy.

There shouldn't be an incentive to win besides bragging rights. That's what amateur means. You're there because you want to compete in a structured tournament, not becasue you have anything meaningful riding on the outcome. If you want to make money playing the game you have to be good enough to do so, not be the right amount of bad. It just doesn't make any sense to reward people for being anything but the best. Right now the PDGA encourages you to suck.

It sounds like you're describing a local league or a non-sanctioned tournament. You can still have those if you make all PDGA sanctioned AM tournaments trophy only.

 

[garublador]

Having been involved on the organizing side of several martial arts and various sports tournaments over the years, I don't think most sports tournaments are a valid basis for comparison.

For one thing, tournaments for most sports typically have significant expenses that most disc golf tournaments doesn't have: paid officials and rental of the venue being the most obvious. On top of the rental fee, venues typically charge for event and security staff (mandatory, and often at overtime rates), and many also require renters to use and pay for venue-owned equipment (tables, chairs, electrical equipment, signage, etc.) and services (set up, dismantling, janitorial, food, traffic/parking, etc.). Rental fees for a even a small venue can easily run into the thousands of dollars for a two day tournament, and it's not unusual for the event services fees to run into 5 figures. And private venues typically have much higher and much more stringent liability insurance requirements.

Other than NTs, Majors, and maybe a handful of top tier tournaments, I don't think expenses for disc golf come anywhere close to those numbers.

But people are still willing to do it. One argument is that people won't drop $20 on a tournament if there's no chance for them to win stuff. It's been proven dozens of times by different activities that people will spend more money for the chance to spend less time doing something that gives no chance of anything but a trophy and bragging rights.

 

[New013]

One, how many of those events are sanctioned by the professional association for those sports?

So what you're saying is we should start a completely seperate ADGA and basically ruin the PDGA because without us Ams the PDGA is nothing. I think most of us like winning things, if they go against us that would probably be a big mistake.

I already have more fun playing local non sanctioned events and it costs less and I can win cash or merch if I do well. If the PDGA goes down the trophy only avenue I'll probably stop playing in their events. It costs to much in comparison to the competition to not get anything out of it but super long rounds of disc golf.

 

[The Hammer]

Trophy only.

I've noticed more and more complaining about payouts and players packs from some of the ams over the years. I feel like they have become accustomed to getting more and more. When they don't get what they feel they are entitled to, some of them will piss and moan about it. Additionally, it just adds burden to already stressed and busy TD's. Finally, I think there needs to be more of an incentive to make the leap from am to pro. I have a feeling that these super ams are going to become more and more common under the current structure. I've just now started to become conscious that the current system encourages lifetime ams, and "bagging".

 

[DavidSauls]

Food for thought (very simplified):

50 Ams at a tournament. TD choosing between a $15 entry fee, no players pack or prizes; or a $40 entry fee, 100% payout at retail value in some combination of players pack and prizes.

If he chooses the $15 route, he takes in $750, which he can use to pay tournament expenses. What's left, he can keep or add to the Pro purse, or the club can keep for course improvements.

The Ams get to play in a tournament, a great value, but nothing else.

If he chooses the $40 route, the Ams pay $2,000. He gives out $2,000 (at retail) in players packs and prizes. He paid, oh, 60-65% of that cost at wholesale; say, $1,250. So he has $750, which he can use to pay for tournament expenses. What's left, he can keep or add to the Pro purse, or the club can keep for course improvements.

The Ams have paid in $2,000, get to play in a tournament (a great value), and get their entire entry back (at retail).

So the TD comes out the same either way, and the players come out better under the $40, merch-payout system.

And that's if the attendance is the same. If the TD selects the $15, trophy-only system and fewer players show up, it's a loss all around.

*

I know this example ignores the "True Amateurism" philosophies of some, and perhaps creates some incentives that have other, negative effects. But it's good to keep in mind, as one of the reasons for the status quo.

There is another aspect of the merch payout system that players like. In a trophy-only payout, if you're out of reach of 1st place but battling for 6th, or perhaps "last cash (merch)", there's nothing to strive for but pride, and very little of that. If you're in a traditional merch-payout system, you may come down to the last few holes thinking, "If I can hit this 40' putt, it'll be worth an extra disc, or I'll sneak into the payouts ahead of so-and-so." It gives something more to play for, down the line.

 

[DavidSauls]

That's sort of the point of my post, I don't know if the current system is terrible and want to learn what people think and their reasons. I intend to run my own events in the future and want to know what people think about the issue. I know that the pdga already allows a number of options when it comes to payouts, i just don't know which people think are the best ones.

Excellent.

You'll get a lot of opinions here, and perhaps even some good ideas. But what will matter most is not what we think, but what your local players think.

Under the PDGA, you can run
---Traditional format
---Low entry, no players pack, trophy only
---High entry, huge players pack, trophy only
---Big players pack but small prize payout
---One division with graduated entry fees
---No age-protected divisions
---No ratings-based divisions (just pro & am)
---One division for everyone
---Limited divisions, like No Advanced (everyone over 935 plays open), or No Recreational (big Intermediate), or Rec (under 900) and Advanced (everyone over 900), or whatever combination you like.
---You can also do match play, doubles, team play, and all sorts of other formats other than standard stroke play.

You can do just about anything along these lines you want, except change the ratings threshholds (including the "no cap" on Advanced).

You can't pay the Ams in cash, of course, but I'll bet you can buy back the merch from them to circumvent this, if that's what you want to do.

That's all if you sanction it. If you go non-sanctioned, your imagination's the limit.

We've tinkered with some of these ideas and contemplated some others. We love trying something new. But always in our discussion is the question, Will players come?. Never is the question, Will it offend the sensibilities of someone halfway across the country?

Go for it, and good luck.

 

[Halcón]

David, plug in your numbers, but make it an Am only event. What would the pros/cons be for players, and TD? Would the Ams be willing to play if they knew a significant portion was going to the course? Charity? TD?

 

[bnbanbury]

when the pdga guidelines state the % payout for each tier what does that mean in terms of the am divisions? Does the player pack count as payout or is payout only what is paid out in plastic at the end?

 

[bnbanbury]

And thanks for that post David, I knew there were options but didn't realize some of the ones you listed were permissible.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

If I'm running a tournament, best case scenario, hypothetically, perfect world, etc. etc.

1 day, 2 rounds of 18

$40 entry fee for all AMs, $70 for all Pros

100% payout for Pros, including whatever added cash (probably a C-Tier with $1000 or so added)

Trophy only for AMs. Your entry fee includes a tournament dri-fit shirt, a tournament star disc (get 3-4 molds to choose from), a buffet lunch, and plenty of water around the course. What are you competing for? handmade trophies or dyed discs for top 3 finishers in big divisions, winner only in small divisions.

Ideally, this would draw the full 72 player pool and fill up a week in advance. 15 MPO, 15 MA1, 15 MA2, 10 MA3, 5 FPO, 5 MM1, and the rest distributed between AdvMasters, AdvGrand, AdvWomen, etc.

MPO would pay out top 5, MM1 top 2, the others as needed.

I am NOT saying I could go out and do this any weekend of the year. This would be my ideal tournament if I was TD. I would hopefully be able to cover most of the expenses before the tournament even started and have enough money where I can buy things for the tournament last minute if needed. I wouldn't necessarily want any profit, but I would like to compete.

 

[bnbanbury]

If I'm running a tournament, best case scenario, hypothetically, perfect world, etc. etc.

1 day, 2 rounds of 18

$40 entry fee for all AMs, $70 for all Pros

100% payout for Pros, including whatever added cash (probably a C-Tier with $1000 or so added)

Trophy only for AMs. Your entry fee includes a tournament dri-fit shirt, a tournament star disc (get 3-4 molds to choose from), a buffet lunch, and plenty of water around the course. What are you competing for? handmade trophies or dyed discs for top 3 finishers in big divisions, winner only in small divisions.

Ideally, this would draw the full 72 player pool and fill up a week in advance. 15 MPO, 15 MA1, 15 MA2, 10 MA3, 5 FPO, 5 MM1, and the rest distributed between AdvMasters, AdvGrand, AdvWomen, etc.

MPO would pay out top 5, MM1 top 2, the others as needed.

I am NOT saying I could go out and do this any weekend of the year. This would be my ideal tournament if I was TD. I would hopefully be able to cover most of the expenses before the tournament even started and have enough money where I can buy things for the tournament last minute if needed. I wouldn't necessarily want any profit, but I would like to compete.

I would attend your tournament for sure :thmbup:

 

[gcanter2376]

trophy only

Two things:

One, how many of those events are sanctioned by the professional association for those sports? You aren't playing basketball at an NBA event. The local beach volleyball tournaments probably aren't AVP events.

No they are not but they dont cost as much money either.

Two, a tee shirt is a trophy. It's just one you can wear. A token disc with a custom stamp is another example of a trophy. People who want trophy only mostly don't want the winners to come out ahead compared to their entry fee. Paying $20 and then winning a $100 portable basket is the same as winning money. Paying $15 and then winning a $10 tee shirt is winning a trophy.
Our opinions differ hear. A teeshirt or a disc you can wear or throw. A trophy collects dust. And I never have played in a tournament that offered a basket as a prize. Im sure some have but thats def the exception not the rule. Most payout in much smaller amounts.

There shouldn't be an incentive to win besides bragging rights. That's what amateur means. You're there because you want to compete in a structured tournament, not becasue you have anything meaningful riding on the outcome. If you want to make money playing the game you have to be good enough to do so, not be the right amount of bad. It just doesn't make any sense to reward people for being anything but the best. Right now the PDGA encourages you to suck.

Thats not what Amateur means.
Amateur:
one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession
: one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science

Pdga doesnt encourage people to suck. It encourages newcomers to play.
It sounds like you're describing a local league or a non-sanctioned tournament. You can still have those if you make all PDGA sanctioned AM tournaments trophy only.

Sounds like your talking about an A-Teir or Worlds maybe? Since Worlds is the hot topic at the moment. Thats a different discussion as you are crowning a world champion. I was talking about tournaments in general. I said I would be dissapointed if I payed $30 or $40 bucks and didnt get at least a disc.

Im not against trophy only per say. I just think that after awhile bragging rights get old. Give me a disc or something. Nobody likes a braggert anyway.

 

[gcanter2376]

Trophy only

I would attend your tournament for sure :thmbup:

So would I.

 

[mashnut]

If I'm running a tournament, best case scenario, hypothetically, perfect world, etc. etc.

1 day, 2 rounds of 18

$40 entry fee for all AMs, $70 for all Pros

100% payout for Pros, including whatever added cash (probably a C-Tier with $1000 or so added)

Trophy only for AMs. Your entry fee includes a tournament dri-fit shirt, a tournament star disc (get 3-4 molds to choose from), a buffet lunch, and plenty of water around the course. What are you competing for? handmade trophies or dyed discs for top 3 finishers in big divisions, winner only in small divisions.

Ideally, this would draw the full 72 player pool and fill up a week in advance. 15 MPO, 15 MA1, 15 MA2, 10 MA3, 5 FPO, 5 MM1, and the rest distributed between AdvMasters, AdvGrand, AdvWomen, etc.

MPO would pay out top 5, MM1 top 2, the others as needed.

I am NOT saying I could go out and do this any weekend of the year. This would be my ideal tournament if I was TD. I would hopefully be able to cover most of the expenses before the tournament even started and have enough money where I can buy things for the tournament last minute if needed. I wouldn't necessarily want any profit, but I would like to compete.

Here's the thing about that. For $40, ams can go play a tournament that pays out 100%+ of their entry fees in merch plus a decent players' pack. I'm skeptical that you would fill that tournament when it's trophy only at the price that a tournament would normally charge with payout. One of the advantages of the trophy only events I've played is that they're lower cost, and that's how you're going to get players to come out to that kind of event when they're used to the current model.

 

[DavidSauls]

when the pdga guidelines state the % payout for each tier what does that mean in terms of the am divisions? Does the player pack count as payout or is payout only what is paid out in plastic at the end?

Yes, players pack and prize payouts for finishes, in whatever ratio, constitute the total payout.

100% is total entries, less certain expenses (PDGA players fees, series fees, etc.) So it's not necessarily "100%", but generally pretty close.

 

[bnbanbury]

But people are still willing to do it. One argument is that people won't drop $20 on a tournament if there's no chance for them to win stuff. It's been proven dozens of times by different activities that people will spend more money for the chance to spend less time doing something that gives no chance of anything but a trophy and bragging rights.

Yeah that was the only point i was trying to make. That I've attended more expensive competitions that pay out nothing but are still packed with people eager to compete. I realize that MA tournaments have many more expenses than a disc golf tournament.

 

[DavidSauls]

David, plug in your numbers, but make it an Am only event. What would the pros/cons be for players, and TD? Would the Ams be willing to play if they knew a significant portion was going to the course? Charity? TD?

I don't think it makes much difference to the Ams where the margin is going. It shouldn't, since they're getting the value of the tournament, plus their entries back in the $40 example.

From a TD's perspective an Am-only event is better financially, all things being equal.

But---TDs like to have Pros come to our events. Plus, on the local level, a lot of the Pros and Advanced players are friends, and travel to tournaments together; exclude one group from an event, and their friends in the other group might not come, either.

 

[NOStheBOSS]

Here's the thing about that. For $40, ams can go play a tournament that pays out 100%+ of their entry fees in merch plus a decent players' pack. I'm skeptical that you would fill that tournament when it's trophy only at the price that a tournament would normally charge with payout. One of the advantages of the trophy only events I've played is that they're lower cost, and that's how you're going to get players to come out to that kind of event when they're used to the current model.

I'm sure if I planned far enough in advance I could get it to $30

 

[coupe]

But people are still willing to do it. One argument is that people won't drop $20 on a tournament if there's no chance for them to win stuff. It's been proven dozens of times by different activities that people will spend more money for the chance to spend less time doing something that gives no chance of anything but a trophy and bragging rights.

I think most participants in other sports understand, at least at some level, that a significant portion, if not the majority, of their entry fee goes toward tournament expenses, so they're paying for the opportunity to compete at all.

That's a far cry from most PDGA tournaments, for which the overwhelming majority of entry fees goes toward meeting the PDGA-mandated payout. So unless and until entry fees drop to a level commensurate with non-payout expenses or non-payout expenses rise to a level commensurate with entry fees, I don't think it's valid to compare the financial models.

It's easy--and not entirely unwarranted--to point the finger the PDGA's tournament model for "addicting" AMs to payouts, but--in my experience at least--clubs bear at least as much of the responsibility/blame.

Going back to 1985, every club I've been involved in's leagues, doubles, monthlies, non-sanctioned tournaments, etc., paid out/pays out AMs, either in cash or merch. In fact, the chance to win cash/merch is often the first thing mentioned to newbies to try to entice them into playing local events, and the thing that attracts them in the first place. So by the time they get around to PDGA-sanctioned play, they've been trained to expect a payout for finishing well.

[Thanks for making my point for me, New.]