SLIDING A DISC

[GTdisc]

Hi,
I just saw a video on Facebook... In heavy wind, this guy slide his disc along the snow-covered ground to get close to the basket. Is this legal, or does the disc have to leave the ground first?

 

[Future_Primitive]

Hi,
I just saw a video on Facebook... In heavy wind, this guy slide his disc along the snow-covered ground to get close to the basket. Is this legal, or does the disc have to leave the ground first?

Completely legal. Not much different than doing a roller, throwing it towards the ground and letting the disc do the rest. :thmbup:

 

[GTdisc]

To clarify, the disc started on the ground... Here's the video

https://www.facebook.com/udiscapp/v...tif_id=1578327654284408&notif_t=group_comment

 

[JC17393]

802.01 Throw
A. A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.

Seems to me that sliding a disc on the ground consists of propulsion and a release, with intent to change its position. No reason for it to not be a legal throw.

 

[zenbot]

I don't see anything that specifically states that the disc needs to leave the playing surface (aka ground). I have concerns about the stance taken to make such a shot. Technically, a supporting point needs to be behind the previous disc thrown or a marker so how could you simultaneously satisfy that rule while pushing the disc so it's not touching the ground beyond that point?

Maybe I'm overthinking it.

802.01 Throw

A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

 

[Future_Primitive]

Thanks for the link, never saw anyone lay it on the ground and push it before. Have seen plenty of folks throw it an inch or two above the ground a little bit and slide the rest of the way. I guess I would agree with JC above and consider it legal.

I do have a question as to where his thrown disc or mini marker was in the video. If its at his knee then this is appears to be close to illegal as his off hand is a supporting point and must be behind the mini/disc. Tough angle and no mini in sight so I cant say for sure, but that would be the closest thing to making it illegal.

 

[markmcc]

I agree. The supporting point seems to be the issue. I assume that he is using the disc itself to mark his lie, as otherwise he would be pushing through a mini or another disc. Doing that, I don't think he can push that same disc forward as his "throw". It would seem to put his "supporting point", at least briefly, in front of the lie.

Pretty smart way to play that shot though...

 

[kenjiac]

I don't see anything that specifically states that the disc needs to leave the playing surface (aka ground). I have concerns about the stance taken to make such a shot. Technically, a supporting point needs to be behind the previous disc thrown or a marker so how could you simultaneously satisfy that rule while pushing the disc so it's not touching the ground beyond that point?

Maybe I'm overthinking it.

802.01 Throw

A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

I feel that this shot could be legal but the one in the vid is not. You need to have a mini to mark your lie and release the slide prior to going past that mini. So in this vid for example the thrower should have marked the lie with a mini moved his left hand behind that mini and slid the disc with his right releasing the slide prior to crossing in front of the left hand and it would be legal.

 

[JC17393]

I feel that this shot could be legal but the one in the vid is not. You need to have a mini to mark your lie and release the slide prior to going past that mini. So in this vid for example the thrower should have marked the lie with a mini moved his left hand behind that mini and slid the disc with his right releasing the slide prior to crossing in front of the left hand and it would be legal.

Need a marker disc for a legal lie, yes.

Need to release the disc behind the marker...no. Please cite the rule that requires the disc to be released behind the marker to be a legal throw.

99% of throws in the air are released in front of the marker rather than behind it. Why should a slide "throw" be any different?

 

[Future_Primitive]

Need a marker disc for a legal lie, yes.

Need to release the disc behind the marker...no. Please cite the rule that requires the disc to be released behind the marker to be a legal throw.

99% of throws in the air are released in front of the marker rather than behind it. Why should a slide "throw" be any different?

I am guessing due the thin line between his pushing hand also being a supporting point. Because the disc is on the ground and his hand is pushing it while it stays connected to the ground it would be best if it was released while behind the lie to avoid a lengthy argument on what qualifies as a supporting point. He is pushing down on the disc while sliding it forward, if he is still pushing down past the lie does that constitute it being a supporting point? Does the disc being between his hand and the ground somehow nullify his hand being a supporting point?

Not sure why he wouldnt just put a knee behind the mini marker and just toss the disc a few inches in front of him just barely off the ground. Would achieve a similar result without any controversy.

 

[zenbot]

99% of throws in the air are released in front of the marker rather than behind it. Why should a slide "throw" be any different?

I think where it gets fuzzy for me is that the disc is in contact with the playing surface upon release. So if you continue to propel the disc past your lie, you could argue that you have a supporting point beyond the mark.

 

[JC17393]

I am guessing due the thin line between his pushing hand also being a supporting point.

I think where it gets fuzzy for me is that the disc is in contact with the playing surface upon release. So if you continue to propel the disc past your lie, you could argue that you have a supporting point beyond the mark.

The location of supporting points is only relevant at the moment of release (assuming we're talking outside the 10-meter circle). By definition, the moment of release is when the hand is no longer contacting the disc. If one's hand is not contacting the disc at moment of release, it isn't contacting the playing surface via the transitive principle either. Any contact between the hand, the disc, and the ground prior to the moment of release is inconsequential and irrelevant.

No different than dropping a disc into a basket to hole out. If you set it in the cage, then let go, it's considered a legal throw and is holed out.

 

[Future_Primitive]

The location of supporting points is only relevant at the moment of release (assuming we're talking outside the 10-meter circle). By definition, the moment of release is when the hand is no longer contacting the disc. If one's hand is not contacting the disc at moment of release, it isn't contacting the playing surface via the transitive principle either. Any contact between the hand, the disc, and the ground prior to the moment of release is inconsequential and irrelevant.

No different than dropping a disc into a basket to hole out. If you set it in the cage, then let go, it's considered a legal throw and is holed out.

Zen and I are discussing the point of release (possibly) being after his hand has pushed the disc past the mini and is still in contact with his disc/ground. Your post isnt addressing this scenario directly, IMO, although I am with you on your post being correct.

To be clear, what happens if he pushes the disc 6" past his mini? He doesnt release the pressed down disc until after he has pushed it past his mini/lie. This is the fuzzy part of the scenario IMO as Zen pointed out, its still in contact with the playing surface after he has pushed it past his lie. So its not like dropping a disc into to hole out as that disc is in the air and your feet are behind your lie. His hand is being supported by the ground as he pushes the disc down while sliding it forward. Right?

 

[JC17393]

Zen and I are discussing the point of release (possibly) being after his hand has pushed the disc past the mini and is still in contact with his disc/ground. Your post isnt addressing this scenario directly, IMO, although I am with you on your post being correct.

To be clear, what happens if he pushes the disc 6" past his mini? He doesnt release the pressed down disc until after he has pushed it past his mini/lie. This is the fuzzy part of the scenario IMO as Zen pointed out, its still in contact with the playing surface after he has pushed it past his lie. So its not like dropping a disc into to hole out as that disc is in the air and your feet are behind your lie. His hand is being supported by the ground as he pushes the disc down while sliding it forward. Right?

Absolutely my post addresses this directly. The hand pushing the disc past the mini and being in contact with the disc/ground in front of the mini is not illegal because THE DISC HASN'T BEEN RELEASED YET. Nothing that happens prior to release is relevant to the legality/illegality of the throw. It only matters where the supporting points are AT release.

802.04.B contains the definition of supporting point: "A supporting point is any part of the player's body that is, at the time of release, in contact with the playing surface or any other object that provides support."

If it's before the time of release, it's not a supporting point. It's not anything as pertains to the rules of play.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Here's the video clip in the Twin Cities Disc Golf group on Facebook. If you're not in that group, you may not be able to see it:
https://www.facebook.com/middlecamp/videos/10158157382613846/

A couple things to note. We don't know if this was just an exhibition or real shot. Second, it wasn't a sanctioned round and marking rules are more liberal in Minnesota in rounds with snow cover. If your disc leaves a ring in the snow when lifted, you can plant in the ring for your next throw without using a marker, especially near the basket. In addition, you can tip your disc forward in the snow so it sits like a tombstone and use it as your mark.

It's likely he flipped the disc upside down and slid with his right hand referencing the "ring in snow" mark and his left hand was placed properly behind the ring mark within the 20x30 lie.

If PDGA sanctioned, this shot could have been done if he had a really thin mini or proper mini diameter sized, flat plastic disc he could press in the snow in front of the disc to mark the lie. Then, flip over the disc and do the same sliding throw with disc gliding over the top of the mini marker. Whether the disc being released while over or past the mini is a bit grey area so flinging it a half inch above the snow might be better form. Of course, in winter rules, it's also a grey area whether the top of the snow is the playing surface or its surface once its compacted or the actual ground below it.

 

[JC17393]

If PDGA sanctioned, this shot could have been done if he had a really thin mini or proper mini diameter sized, flat plastic disc he could press in the snow in front of the disc to mark the lie. Then, flip over the disc and do the same sliding throw with disc gliding over the top of the mini marker.

Assuming that he is actually sliding the disc over the lie/marker, then the slide in the video might require a flat mini or one pressed into the snow, but it should be noted that a shot like this does not have to originate from the lie or pass over the lie/mini to be legal. The player's lie in the video could be in front of his right knee rather than in front of his left hand and the throw would be just as legal.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Assuming that he is actually sliding the disc over the lie/marker, then the slide in the video might require a flat mini or one pressed into the snow, but it should be noted that a shot like this does not have to originate from the lie or pass over the lie/mini to be legal. The player's lie in the video could be in front of his right knee rather than in front of his left hand and the throw would be just as legal.

The grey area seems to be whether it's proper to still be in contact with the disc while it's touching the ground in front of the lie before release. I suppose it could be allowed under the "incidental contact with obstacles/foliage (snow) in front of the lie" provision during the throwing motion. But it feels like the player should be required to release contact with the disc behind the lie if this ever became a formal Q&A decision.

 

[kenjiac]

Need a marker disc for a legal lie, yes.

Need to release the disc behind the marker...no. Please cite the rule that requires the disc to be released behind the marker to be a legal throw.

99% of throws in the air are released in front of the marker rather than behind it. Why should a slide "throw" be any different?

Because once it crosses in front of the lie it could be considered a supporting point in front of the lie and thus not legal. The player never lifted the disc off the ground.

 

[JC17393]

The grey area seems to be whether it's proper to still be in contact with the disc while it's touching the ground in front of the lie before release. I suppose it could be allowed under the "incidental contact with obstacles/foliage (snow) in front of the lie" provision during the throwing motion. But it feels like the player should be required to release contact with the disc behind the lie if this ever became a formal Q&A decision.

But as I keep saying, it really isn't a grey area. Contact with the playing surface in front of the lie before release of the disc is irrelevant. The best direct comparison is the crane putt you once demonstrated on video. One foot in front of the lie then picked up just before release. That foot in front of the lie isn't a grey area any more than the disc being in contact with the ground and the thrower's hand before it is released.

 

[JC17393]

Because once it crosses in front of the lie it could be considered a supporting point in front of the lie and thus not legal. The player never lifted the disc off the ground.

See my prior post. It's not a supporting point UNTIL the disc is released.

Absolutely my post addresses this directly. The hand pushing the disc past the mini and being in contact with the disc/ground in front of the mini is not illegal because THE DISC HASN'T BEEN RELEASED YET. Nothing that happens prior to release is relevant to the legality/illegality of the throw. It only matters where the supporting points are AT release.

802.04.B contains the definition of supporting point: "A supporting point is any part of the player's body that is, at the time of release, in contact with the playing surface or any other object that provides support."

If it's before the time of release, it's not a supporting point. It's not anything as pertains to the rules of play.