The SW22 Swim Move

[Brychanus]

Here are some early examples I know:

Harold Duvall 1983: https://youtu.be/h_T2KwKfUOE

Thomas Ekström 1993 (at 31:00). Not a great view. Better view from 2010: https://youtu.be/7dz49D5-4tQ

Thomas' protege Jesper Lundmark, 2000 (at for example 1:03:45): https://youtu.be/VurxeSpvsBQ

Duvall - now that's what I'm talkin' about. I can't wait for my next fieldwork session in those lil' skivies.

2010 Ekstrom look is my spirit animal of the week. I don't think I realized how long he'd been at it.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

@sidewinder22

What are the pros and cons of the swim move compared to eagle's / Simon's off arm style?

eagle & simon seems to punch down along the side of their body, keeping it close, but not bringing it forward in front of the body.

When holding my throwing arm in the power pocket and emphasizing hunching the shoulder forward and comparing the two, it feels like they both tug on the throwing arm the same amount due to both having a punch down motion.

I've also heard, and it sounds correct, that the off arm acts as an anchor point for the throwing side to whip around. Eagle'ss & Simon's style seems to emphasize this part sooner rather than later after the swim forward portion.

Eagle's & Simon's style is simpler it seems, you don't have to swim in front (and worry about the arm getting in the way), and then punch down, you just punch down. And they have so much power that it's hard to believe they are leaving some on the table here

So, why do the seemingly more complicated swim move when you can more simply punch down? Is it that some people just find one more natural than the other?

All else equal, would the swim move be better because it also adds a bit of forward momentum?

 

[sidewinder22]

It is not a punch down. I don't know how a punch would be easier than swimming or just keeping your hand leveraged on your thigh like Marc Jarvis.

Eagle and Simon are swimming/leveraging their shoulders forward from the hand. When you swim in water you want to try and keep your hand anchored in place in the water to leverage the rest of your body forward from it. The opposite of swimming is thrashing(punching) the hand through the water.

 

[Sheep]

It's not a punch down or a punch through.

It's a relax and fall.

It "looks" like they are punching down.


This is a really simple subject that is also something that can be talked about in a very extensive manor. But none of the pro's cept maybe a few are "punching down" to over rotate their shoulders.

One of the things that Josh gets right on the backswing mechanics is using your off arm to help you get your rotation in the backswing. The issue is, now you have a limb that is insanely out of position and you need to use it to leverage against, not with.

So you dont want to slam down and through, or slam down. You let it relax and fall and then anchor against it.

The swim move is just a really catchy way to talk about how you're resisting the rotation by making the swimming motion.

The part that is hard is when you get your body into position with a big shoulder turn, is trying to make sure you move the arm back into position without over rotating. So when I do it, I have to actively move my arm, If I let it relax, I chicken wing. But I'm never trying to THROW my arm, but trying to move it back into position relaxed adding to the kinetic chain.


The problem with a lot of "Golf coaching" right now if you wanna call it that is people not understanding sports mechanics and grounded power.

You can have the most absolutely powerful brace and hip drive of any golfer, then do the "double move" and destroy the kinetic chain you built.

Any time you try and "force" rotation, or "throw" rotation, you destroy the kinetic chain. Thats why throwing your hips is bad, squish the bug is bad, and the double move is bad. Because you're destroying the previously built energy from the kinetich chain when you get out ahead of it.

You have to remember to build up the kinetic chain the whole way to explode with power.

The problem is when people watch and try and mimic, they don't understand what's going on. And the reason the pro's are terrible teachers is they have no idea how they do what they do, they just do it.

 

[drk_evns]

Get in a pool and do your backhand motion. Easiest way to understand how the off-arm can assist.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

It is not a punch down. I don't know how a punch would be easier than swimming or just keeping your hand leveraged on your thigh like Marc Jarvis.

Eagle and Simon are swimming/leveraging their shoulders forward from the hand. When you swim in water you want to try and keep your hand anchored in place in the water to leverage the rest of your body forward from it. The opposite of swimming is thrashing(punching) the hand through the water.

View attachment 330976

#1 feels unanswered, #2 somewhat for me.

1. Is there a benefit to bringing the off arm more across the abdomen first compared to your picture here of Simon and Eagle where they keep it on the outside-side of the body instead of crossing the front of the body towards the abdomen like Drew and others?
2. "Leveraging the shoulders forward with the hand" is this describing the same feeling as the off arm tugging the throwing arm through the back? When the throwing shoulder is hunched forward (scapular protraction) and in the power pocket, I can feel my off arm motion tug the throwing arm through the back, but when standing in the power pocket I feel the biggest tug by pushing the off arm down (while it's close to my body already). I can't find a noticeable tug like this with any other off arm motion other than extending it downwards, hence me using the "punch down" cue (after bringing it close to the side first) which feels like it's helped me muscle less with the arm and throw with the back muscles more.

 

[sidewinder22]

#1 feels unanswered, #2 somewhat for me.

1. Is there a benefit to bringing the off arm more across the abdomen first compared to your picture here of Simon and Eagle where they keep it on the outside-side of the body instead of crossing the front of the body towards the abdomen like Drew and others?

2. "Leveraging the shoulders forward with the hand" is this describing the same feeling as the off arm tugging the throwing arm through the back? When the throwing shoulder is hunched forward (scapular protraction) and in the power pocket, I can feel my off arm motion tug the throwing arm through the back, but when standing in the power pocket I feel the biggest tug by pushing the off arm down (while it's close to my body already). I can't find a noticeable tug like this with any other off arm motion other than extending it downwards, hence me using the "punch down" cue (after bringing it close to the side first) which feels like it's helped me muscle less with the arm and throw with the back muscles more.

1. There are a few different ways you will see the off arm move with all the top throwers. I don't think there is definitive way that is best or that it makes that much difference either way. If you watch Kristian Kuoksa he keeps the off arm bent and moving targetward throughout the forward swing like he's holding a beverage, so he doesn't really have a swim move.


2. When you say punching down, I imagine punching down like you are trying to break bricks in martial arts - which is not how I think of the throwing motion. When you swim the elbow is bent and close to the hip and the elbow extends/pushes to exit the water - which might look like a downward punch if were standing up, I think it's more a swinging motion of the lower arm than a directed punch.

Have you tried this with the pool cue stick?

 

[419HondaGuy]

If you do the swim move properly during your swing, in my mind it almost seems like your arms/hands are essentially ripping or tearing something apart.
Not sure if that makes sense for anyone else?

 

[sidewinder22]

If you do the swim move properly during your swing, in my mind it almost seems like your arms/hands are essentially ripping or tearing something apart.
Not sure if that makes sense for anyone else?

Yes, like starting the lawnmower.

 

[RowingBoats]

Do you all actually 'do' this move, as in something that you had to work on separately outside of learning reasonable form?

I feel like it is just part of staying in balance and having a braced swing. I'm playing around trying to find a way to swing without some kind of trail arm anchor movement and I can't really do it lol.

I seem to naturally 'swim' back but making myself 'not spill the beverage' doesn't feel like it loses much/any power.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Do you all actually 'do' this move, as in something that you had to work on separately outside of learning reasonable form?

I feel like it is just part of staying in balance and having a braced swing. I'm playing around trying to find a way to swing without some kind of trail arm anchor movement and I can't really do it lol.

I seem to naturally 'swim' back but making myself 'not spill the beverage' doesn't feel like it loses much/any power.

I don't think I do it, if I do it, very well when I'm throwing generally. I started trying to incorporate a more well executed "swim move" in 2019 and I felt it distinctly improved my game. It had the odd effect of really expelling air from my lungs violently (think: Serena grunt) when I was executing it well, but I felt more linear power and definitely felt like my throws were generally more on line when I really focused on ensuring that I performed the shot while trying to drive my shoulder through my body toward the target. And then I kinda stopped practicing as much. I'm going to try to remember to incorporate it right away when I start working on form again this year.

 

[RowingBoats]

If you watch Kristian Kuoksa he keeps the off arm bent and moving targetward throughout the forward swing like he's holding a beverage, so he doesn't really have a swim move.

He definitely doesn't have as pronounced of one, but I was watching his "How to Throw REALLY Far!" video and towards the end when he throws hard, you can see at least one frame where his trail arm anchors away from the target. It's not very easy to see unless you literally click through frame by frame but I saw it on all of the throws that captured enough frames.

I don't think the arm being bent matters, but he does seem to do it at least a tiny bit. I think you have to do it.

Edit: If you are all using 'swim move' to ONLY mean a move that aesthetically looks like swimming, I may be over generalizing. I always took the swim move to be any form of leveraging off the trail arm. The way it looks seems completely unimportant function wise to me.

 

[RowingBoats]

I don't think I do it, if I do it, very well when I'm throwing generally. I started trying to incorporate a more well executed "swim move" in 2019 and I felt it distinctly improved my game. It had the odd effect of really expelling air from my lungs violently (think: Serena grunt) when I was executing it well, but I felt more linear power and definitely felt like my throws were generally more on line when I really focused on ensuring that I performed the shot while trying to drive my shoulder through my body toward the target. And then I kinda stopped practicing as much. I'm going to try to remember to incorporate it right away when I start working on form again this year.

This makes sense to me in a way. I don't think it is the 'swim move' that adds power or generates the Serena grunt. But powerful swings that generate the Serena grunt require the move in order to swing that hard.

It feels instinctual, not like something you tack on to the swing in an isolated way. Trying to time it or conceive of it as a separate move doesn't make sense to me personally. I can definitely see possible benefits to emphasizing it if you notice your swing is way off base, but I would wager that the benefits you saw from doing so were from it triggering you to just be more balanced in general.

 

[ChrisWoj]

This makes sense to me in a way. I don't think it is the 'swim move' that adds power or generates the Serena grunt. But powerful swings that generate the Serena grunt require the move in order to swing that hard.

It feels instinctual, not like something you tack on to the swing in an isolated way. Trying to time it or conceive of it as a separate move doesn't make sense to me personally. I can definitely see possible benefits to emphasizing it if you notice your swing is way off base, but I would wager that the benefits you saw from doing so were from it triggering you to just be more balanced in general.

Maybe. I don't necessarily have great form in general. I get most of my power from having really long arms, which helps me get away with a lot of bad habits. It gives me a lot of hope for retaining my power into my 40s if I clean it up. For example - incorporating the swim move in a more conscious manner.

I don't conceive of it as a "separate move" in any case. But it definitely, as an incorporated motion, seems to really enforce a feeling of leverage.

 

[Brychanus]

This makes sense to me in a way. I don't think it is the 'swim move' that adds power or generates the Serena grunt. But powerful swings that generate the Serena grunt require the move in order to swing that hard.

It feels instinctual, not like something you tack on to the swing in an isolated way. Trying to time it or conceive of it as a separate move doesn't make sense to me personally. I can definitely see possible benefits to emphasizing it if you notice your swing is way off base, but I would wager that the benefits you saw from doing so were from it triggering you to just be more balanced in general.

Some of the variability in the "swim" action (like SW mentioning Kuoksa's absence of a strong "swim," or Bradley Williams' off arm comes to mind) seems to show you can get plenty of power without the "swimmiest" action (e.g., strong counter-rotation through the lower arm).

I agree with you that it's possible to try and isolate it yet spoil the powerful action. I personally seemed to get the counterrotation/swimmy part early on, but it wasn't until I got the bigger part of the move working better into the shift in improving posture that I got observable "easy power" improvements. Trying to stay more relaxed like baby McBeth or Williams seemed to let my off arm do the other swim things fairly naturally. That was all related to my longest "randomly natural/easy power" throws before I came here, and is still true now, FWIW.

It seems like the moves that help people commit the swing from the rear side inside their posture generate a lot of the force because they also helps collect the momentum into the plant and brace while committing into the swing. That's a lot of the basic idea of SW's Turbo Encabulator. Hopefully the swim part occurs naturally in that context.

Getting the rear side with the elbow assisting the shift into the plant is very important (~9:42):



Though you can even see high level people like Antilla not fully implementing that full elbow-aids-shift-into-the-plaint mechanic (who also happens to be long, wiry, and coordinated).

Some people don't get the swimmy part naturally and could benefit from focusing on it if enough else is going well. But if it's spoiling their ability to get the big parts of the shift working well together it can also backfire (IMO/experience).

The swimmy part of the lower arm is probably mechanically most efficient just like walking. But even without it, you can also walk functionally enough to get from place to place.

I've been exploring fitness and movement aids this winter. Weckmethod has been legitimately helpful (and fun). I also benefitted from this whole Indian club workout but especially the freestanding swim against weighted clubs:

 

[Brychanus]

2. When you say punching down, I imagine punching down like you are trying to break bricks in martial arts - which is not how I think of the throwing motion. When you swim the elbow is bent and close to the hip and the elbow extends/pushes to exit the water - which might look like a downward punch if were standing up, I think it's more a swinging motion of the lower arm than a directed punch.

Have you tried this with the pool cue stick?

Having done martial arts and some brick/stick breaking, that is often what I think people are trying to do in their BH too.

But if you take it literally trying to use it to throw in the BH motion it just tends to screw up the leverage in the plant. It also tends to yank the shoulders way off axis relative to the swing/throw plane.

 

[sidewinder22]

Hand on thigh - the simplest way to use the rear arm to leverage the swing:

 

[yossarian]

Disclaimer: Still early in my disc golf journey (2 years, 860-rated) so don't put too much weight on anything I say.

I'd seen discussion of off-arm movement, "swim motion", "punching down", etc. but had not put any time or attention into my off arm, and figured it was going to need a bunch of work when I got to it. Then I (finally) filmed myself throwing and discovered that my off arm *does* in fact come down nice and tight to my body as I rotate. My conclusion is that the off arm movement is mostly a natural consequence of and counterbalance to the movement of the rest of the body. It should naturally do the right thing - and if it doesn't then you should probably look elsewhere first and fix your pull / rotation / timing / bracing / etc.

Once you've got timing, bracing and rotation perfectly dialed in perhaps you can fine-tune the off arm movement, but until then, don't worry about it. At least that's my plan.

 

[Sheep]

Disclaimer: Still early in my disc golf journey (2 years, 860-rated) so don't put too much weight on anything I say.

I'd seen discussion of off-arm movement, "swim motion", "punching down", etc. but had not put any time or attention into my off arm, and figured it was going to need a bunch of work when I got to it. Then I (finally) filmed myself throwing and discovered that my off arm *does* in fact come down nice and tight to my body as I rotate. My conclusion is that the off arm movement is mostly a natural consequence of and counterbalance to the movement of the rest of the body. It should naturally do the right thing - and if it doesn't then you should probably look elsewhere first and fix your pull / rotation / timing / bracing / etc.

Once you've got timing, bracing and rotation perfectly dialed in perhaps you can fine-tune the off arm movement, but until then, don't worry about it. At least that's my plan.

If your off arm is in the correct position during the swing, it will naturally do the swim move.

The issue comes to when you try and force movement with the off arm, such as punching down or punching through over rotating the shoulders.

If you watch guys like simon and paul on their short game off arm, they anchor their off arm Super hard.

Equal and opposite stuff.

If you punch down or through, especially if you do it to early, you're just hurting your power vs assisting the power.

We need to think about additive actions in the swing. Everything is about driving the kinetic chain. If you do any action prior to the chain start, you are arresting the chain and starting over.

If you do actions after, you are driving the chain forward and assisting by actively giving your body something to resist against.

I was doing a bunch of shoveling on snow earlier and thinking about bracing while throwing snow.
It's just like that, you don't throw a shovel of anything off the back leg, you brace and push against the brace to drive the load forward.

It's the same with the arm, if you try and accelerate before, you basically destroy the chain by arresting the chain and starting a new reaction.

 

[RowingBoats]

Equal and opposite stuff.

For me, this is pretty much it. If your trail arm is doing super wonky stuff its a way worse problem than just 'doing a swim move' will fix.

I have been trying to conceive of a swing while reading this thread that is otherwise sound and simply needs to actively add an off arm anchor, and it doesn't really compute to me.

I will admit that its possible that a swing so wonky that your trail arm is doing...things...might benefit from emphasizing this concept. But this would only help if it somehow triggered someone to resolve other issues as a biproduct.