She doesn't need to promote herself, her job is to help promote others and the brand. I have no idea who she is, but she must be good at social media promotion to land that job.
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Val drops Innova?
- Thread starter corin_brown
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She doesn't need to promote herself, her job is to help promote others and the brand. I have no idea who she is, but she must be good at social media promotion to land that job.
Not to get too far off topic, but Paul and Kona together have about 40k followers on Instagram, Fluffy has about 1.3 MILLION -- which is why Paul was so stoked about him and Kona doing that video shoot. Hopefully it will still happen at some point, just bad timing for rain in SoCal.
In other unique sports (skateboarding, bmx, etc) the most successful pros are those who take the small support a manufacturer can give them, and use that to promote themselves and find other forms of sponsorship.
They end up making more money from the third party contracts.
Skate pros who get a deal from a skateboard manufacturer, don't make much off of that.
They leverage that deal and exposure, with their own self-promotion, in order to get more lucrative deals from shoe or energy drink companies.
Shouldn't our pros be working towards a similar model?
Why do we expect the manufacturer's in our sport to fully support everything in the pro disc golf world?
They end up making more money from the third party contracts.
Skate pros who get a deal from a skateboard manufacturer, don't make much off of that.
They leverage that deal and exposure, with their own self-promotion, in order to get more lucrative deals from shoe or energy drink companies.
Shouldn't our pros be working towards a similar model?
Why do we expect the manufacturer's in our sport to fully support everything in the pro disc golf world?
corin_brown
Eagle Member
Yeah, Kona's dad is definitely doing it right with her. She seems like an ideal role model for new female players.
I just hope for Innova's sake, that if he keeps letting established pros like Val bounce, he has a few more daughters w/10k IG followers who also like to play disc golf lined up to pick up the endorsement & marketing slack losing players like the best woman pro ever would create.
Fair point, and we don't know the specifics on why Val chose to leave, but maybe Innova learned something and is making changes to improve in that area. It looks that way anyway.
As my post said, I didn't search specifically for her... as you did. Your point is valid, I don't search for "disc golf for women" either. As a 56 year old guy, I look mostly for equipment reviews and tips on form.
loki the trickster
Birdie Member
Having something and promoting something are 2 diffrent things.
Mulligan
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2011
- Messages
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So, I just Goggled "disc golf women" and "women disc golf":
Her website is top of the search results list, followed by a PDGA page for info for women that would obviously be under the umbrella of the Committee Val Chairs, followed by a page from innova completely outling the best practices for increasing women's participation in DG.
Considering she has (or had) either direct control or heavy influence of the top 3 resources, I have to say it seems she has attempted to market things a lot. Walking away from innova in that position may have not been the best move... though "having these things and promoting them" while also touring can't be easy.
Last edited:
Mulligan
Double Eagle Member
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http://www.innovadiscs.com/home/disc-golf-for-women/
Covers a lot of topics discussed in this thread head on. Great stuff in here.
Covers a lot of topics discussed in this thread head on. Great stuff in here.
StevenSeagal
Par Member
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I don't know to me it seems really unlikely that the game of disc golf in itself could be so unappealing to women. Ball golf doesn't seem to suffer this same problem so how could spinning plastic discs produce such a mystical effect on women? Maybe it's a amalgamate of a lot of different issues that forms a perfect storm of unappealing?
The bathroom issue is pretty valid and so is the simple fact that at the local level women are almost nonexistent besides girlfriends and first timers. I wouldn't blame someone for feeling out of place. Then you get dudes who crowd new players and overwhelm them with advice. You got other dudes who get visibility irritated at less skilled players and rush them.
This isn't the easiest sport to be introduced to and even if you're lucky enough to be exposed to the game you still have to acclimate to a style of gameplay where confidence is essential. I stuck with disc golf in part because I was introduced to the game by my brother. I was totally inspired by what seemed at the time superhero feats. The best part was he was my brother so it wasn't such a stretch of the imagination to assume I could learn to be as good as him.
Without even trying in my first couple years of playing the sport I met Mcbeast several times, played with his pop's tag group, played a weekly with Lizotte without even knowing who he was, met Philo, KJ, Musick, Super, Dunipace and countless other pros. Every encounter was a treat and an inspiration. Women in this sport don't really get the same experience. There simply is not that many female inspirations for new players to meet and play with and take lessons from.
For those reasons I completely agree with Val that we need some organization whose sole function is to bolster the female presence in this sport.
joecoin
* Ace Member *
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Oh, guess I'll stop googling for it. Wondered why I wasn't getting any hits.
Excellent post StevenSeagal. I particularly agree with the first half as quoted above.
Maybe bowling.
Lazerface
Eagle Member
This thread was an interesting read.
Firstly, I have no comment on Val's situation as I have no facts.
Some posters seem to make no differentiation between fairness of "opportunity" vs fairness of "outcomes". Generally speaking, saying something like, "Women don't get as much in prize money or sponsorship, therefore the sport is unfair to women" is a fairness of outcomes statement. It's backward logic. We can only hold manufacturers, tournament organizers, and the participants in our sport accountable for actions that are discriminatory or in which a system, which I suppose in our case is the PDGA can be recognized as not providing equal opportunity. In order for me to point fingers at any company, group of people, or disc golf culture in general and say they are in some way "oppressive" or "discriminatory" toward women I would need direct evidence of such. I'm not saying it does not or has not happened, but outside of bathroom facilities being available, there is not one bit of evidence presented in the 30 or so pages I just read.
We can start with payout. Hypothetically speaking, if the PDGA our tournament organizers allocated cash, including added cash any other way than by division size, just to benefit a specific demographic (women in this case) that would actually be the opposite of fair. That is not equal opportunity. If you have an issue with this logic, just flip the script and imagine our sport was invented and dominated my women, then men came along and started demanding equal treatment, via sponsorship, or payout (This is for affect I don't really think women are demanding anything in disc golf). Our culture has had a long history of oppressing women, so it's hard to find examples of this, but the modeling example given by someone prior pretty much sums it up. Equality should be measured in opportunity.
The point I'm making above is I do not believe the very young sport of disc golf, it's governing body, participants, or even the companies that supply our equipment/apparel have been limiting or discriminative toward women, and in my experience it's quite the opposite. If that's not the case, then please present actual evidence. Making sure restroom facilities are available at any event is crucial, but unless this is a major and chronic problem I don't think we can chalk this up as evidence of an overall oppressive environment.
Why anyone is expecting private companies to be the catalyst to women's involvement in the sport does not make sense to me. To clarify, if your position is that Innova, or any other company have some sort of social duty to make sure more women play disc golf I don't agree with you. If you think it makes financial sense for a company to strategize in a way that they specifically markets toward women, which could include taking good care of their sponsored women player base, then I have no issue with that. Maybe there is a good case to be made from a revenue perspective for a company to get a strong foot hold on this "future" market. Future is the key word there. Speculating on when an actual viable market (from a company's perspective) of disc golfing women will exist is a separate conversation. As it stands today this move for a company would almost certainly not realize an ROI for quite some time. I'm not saying a company should not do this, but for people to expect it or hold them accountable for not making this type of financial decision is ludicrous.
Growth on the women's side needs to come from within. It makes perfect sense that women are less then comfortable in some scenarios out on the course, or at a tournament for various reasons. For a touring woman, it would certainly suck to put in equal time, equal practice, and equal travel all to cash a check less than half the amount of your male counterpart in their respective division. As much as that sucks, it's not unfair. If both divisions had equal participants and there were still a pay disparity, then we have a problem. This is a reiteration of the fairness of "outcomes" VS "opportunity" argument.
So what can we do? Val is maybe the best example we have of this. She is working to bring women together for more inclusive events. She started an organization dedicated to growing the number of women in disc golf. EDGE is not geared specifically toward young girls, but it does not have to be. Outside of private religious schools there is no real segregation of boys and girls, so they do a great job to exposing the sport to young women, which is crucial for growth.
One idea that comes to mind could be controversial, but is worth discussing. Would anyone have an issue with a representative going out into the community and specially raising added cash sponsorship dollars for the women participating. If the sponsors knew that is what the money is for - if the message was - "we are trying to draw women into the competitive side of our wonderful sport..." and sponsors were willing to sink $ into that message, would that be OK? I think so. If this were done separate from the regular added cash the TD is working on and as long as that TD allocated his/her cash as the PDGA requires (do they have rules on this?) then I see no issue. If someone hit the streets and gathered up some cash for the women's payouts then maybe we could see a smaller disparity in payout even with the much larger relative disparity in participation. After all, we are a long time away from there being equal or even comparable participation. Would men revolt???
To summarize, I have no comment on Val's post regarding Innova as I have 0 facts. It has been said both directly and indirectly on this thread that women are not being treated equally in our sport, and I have always felt the exact opposite, but could be wrong. Until I'm presented with evidence of actual discrimination, systemic limitations, or outright mistreatment I'm going to wish all women in our sport the best. To answer the question, "why is it so important we have more women playing disc golf?" From my perspective, because it means more humans playing disc golf. I want this thing to grow, and involving half our population in the game seems to be pretty important in achieving that. I also have a young daughter who I can only hope takes interest when she is grown, and the more women involved the better the odds.
I will close with saying that Val, to me, is the type of person I would want my brand behind, and if there was unfair treatment, it would seem to me like a bad move. The issue seems to be what people define as "unfair" and this thread shows that is a matter of perspective.
Firstly, I have no comment on Val's situation as I have no facts.
Some posters seem to make no differentiation between fairness of "opportunity" vs fairness of "outcomes". Generally speaking, saying something like, "Women don't get as much in prize money or sponsorship, therefore the sport is unfair to women" is a fairness of outcomes statement. It's backward logic. We can only hold manufacturers, tournament organizers, and the participants in our sport accountable for actions that are discriminatory or in which a system, which I suppose in our case is the PDGA can be recognized as not providing equal opportunity. In order for me to point fingers at any company, group of people, or disc golf culture in general and say they are in some way "oppressive" or "discriminatory" toward women I would need direct evidence of such. I'm not saying it does not or has not happened, but outside of bathroom facilities being available, there is not one bit of evidence presented in the 30 or so pages I just read.
We can start with payout. Hypothetically speaking, if the PDGA our tournament organizers allocated cash, including added cash any other way than by division size, just to benefit a specific demographic (women in this case) that would actually be the opposite of fair. That is not equal opportunity. If you have an issue with this logic, just flip the script and imagine our sport was invented and dominated my women, then men came along and started demanding equal treatment, via sponsorship, or payout (This is for affect I don't really think women are demanding anything in disc golf). Our culture has had a long history of oppressing women, so it's hard to find examples of this, but the modeling example given by someone prior pretty much sums it up. Equality should be measured in opportunity.
The point I'm making above is I do not believe the very young sport of disc golf, it's governing body, participants, or even the companies that supply our equipment/apparel have been limiting or discriminative toward women, and in my experience it's quite the opposite. If that's not the case, then please present actual evidence. Making sure restroom facilities are available at any event is crucial, but unless this is a major and chronic problem I don't think we can chalk this up as evidence of an overall oppressive environment.
Why anyone is expecting private companies to be the catalyst to women's involvement in the sport does not make sense to me. To clarify, if your position is that Innova, or any other company have some sort of social duty to make sure more women play disc golf I don't agree with you. If you think it makes financial sense for a company to strategize in a way that they specifically markets toward women, which could include taking good care of their sponsored women player base, then I have no issue with that. Maybe there is a good case to be made from a revenue perspective for a company to get a strong foot hold on this "future" market. Future is the key word there. Speculating on when an actual viable market (from a company's perspective) of disc golfing women will exist is a separate conversation. As it stands today this move for a company would almost certainly not realize an ROI for quite some time. I'm not saying a company should not do this, but for people to expect it or hold them accountable for not making this type of financial decision is ludicrous.
Growth on the women's side needs to come from within. It makes perfect sense that women are less then comfortable in some scenarios out on the course, or at a tournament for various reasons. For a touring woman, it would certainly suck to put in equal time, equal practice, and equal travel all to cash a check less than half the amount of your male counterpart in their respective division. As much as that sucks, it's not unfair. If both divisions had equal participants and there were still a pay disparity, then we have a problem. This is a reiteration of the fairness of "outcomes" VS "opportunity" argument.
So what can we do? Val is maybe the best example we have of this. She is working to bring women together for more inclusive events. She started an organization dedicated to growing the number of women in disc golf. EDGE is not geared specifically toward young girls, but it does not have to be. Outside of private religious schools there is no real segregation of boys and girls, so they do a great job to exposing the sport to young women, which is crucial for growth.
One idea that comes to mind could be controversial, but is worth discussing. Would anyone have an issue with a representative going out into the community and specially raising added cash sponsorship dollars for the women participating. If the sponsors knew that is what the money is for - if the message was - "we are trying to draw women into the competitive side of our wonderful sport..." and sponsors were willing to sink $ into that message, would that be OK? I think so. If this were done separate from the regular added cash the TD is working on and as long as that TD allocated his/her cash as the PDGA requires (do they have rules on this?) then I see no issue. If someone hit the streets and gathered up some cash for the women's payouts then maybe we could see a smaller disparity in payout even with the much larger relative disparity in participation. After all, we are a long time away from there being equal or even comparable participation. Would men revolt???
To summarize, I have no comment on Val's post regarding Innova as I have 0 facts. It has been said both directly and indirectly on this thread that women are not being treated equally in our sport, and I have always felt the exact opposite, but could be wrong. Until I'm presented with evidence of actual discrimination, systemic limitations, or outright mistreatment I'm going to wish all women in our sport the best. To answer the question, "why is it so important we have more women playing disc golf?" From my perspective, because it means more humans playing disc golf. I want this thing to grow, and involving half our population in the game seems to be pretty important in achieving that. I also have a young daughter who I can only hope takes interest when she is grown, and the more women involved the better the odds.
I will close with saying that Val, to me, is the type of person I would want my brand behind, and if there was unfair treatment, it would seem to me like a bad move. The issue seems to be what people define as "unfair" and this thread shows that is a matter of perspective.
loki the trickster
Birdie Member
Wow some nice points made.
Thank you for taking the time to thank him for taking the time.
disctildeath
Eagle Member
It helps if your actually a decent person like MJ.
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