Were PROs content before Paul got his disc line?

[seedlings]

Paul already had his own Discraft molds before I started playing. Seems like lots of pros now are telling their sponsors what kind of molds they want, and are getting them with regularity.

You think PROs were more content with molds available before Paul got his own line of discs? Or were they always wishing they could get certain flights on a disc, and now they can?

 

[ray1970]

I think the manufacturers have always kind of listened to their pros and made or retooled discs to cater to them.

They didn't have their own line of discs but they definitely had discs that were made to suit their game and they usually stuck their signature on them.

 

[flatflip]

It's not a new thing. Here's Brinster talking about how Innova modified the Teebird for him back in 2013: (go to 6:30; time stamp not working apparently)



What is maybe new is the fact that he could get an entire line with his name on them so he gets royalties on every disc sold. But KC kinda had that going already -- he may not have been there when the roc and aviar molds came out, but I think he had a lot of input on their development (see the difference between the 10x aviar and all previous, the difference between the rancho roc that got used for the KCs and the previous san marinos and ontarios).

McBeth kinda put all that together into one contract. I don't see a lot of other players getting that treatment without world championships -- Pierce, Allen, Conrad...are there others?

 

[seedlings]

It's not a new thing. Here's Brinster talking about how Innova modified the Teebird for him back in 2013: (go to 6:30; time stamp not working apparently)



What is maybe new is the fact that he could get an entire line with his name on them so he gets royalties on every disc sold. But KC kinda had that going already -- he may not have been there when the roc and aviar molds came out, but I think he had a lot of input on their development (see the difference between the 10x aviar and all previous, the difference between the rancho roc that got used for the KCs and the previous san marinos and ontarios).

McBeth kinda put all that together into one contract. I don't see a lot of other players getting that treatment without world championships -- Pierce, Allen, Conrad...are there others?

Add KJ, Cale Leiviska, Simon, Eagle, and in a different way, Drew Gibson. Maybe you're onto something, it's about royalties rather than flights.

 

[dehaas]

Paul was smart enough to understand that he could make a lot of money in disc golf after his playing days are over.

Same principal as MJ making more from the Jordan line than what he ever did playing.

He was the guy who had the pull getting that kind of deal from a sponsor and it just opened the door for everybody else.

I'm sure somebody could find the thread, but he stated here on the forums that he asked Innova for a flat champ roc and the roc3 was born. Like others said, companies have listened to pro feedback in the past, but his own line with DC is more about long term financial impact.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Pros were complaining about inconsistent stock even as far back as the Viper. Stokely talked about this in his book, how everybody was trying to hunt down the "metalhead" Viper which was more stable and reliable but they were hard to find. Complaints from the good players were taken seriously and a few innovations followed. First you had Cyclones and soon after X-Clones that all flew the same out of the box (but they still got flippy after a good tree hit or two). Not long after this, KC Pro Plastic and the Discraft plastic they used to make XL's hit the market, and you now had reliable Discs that flew consistently AND survived more than a few tree incursions. It seems logical that feedback from the good players helped sway the manufacturers to innovate thusly.

I sure loved my Cyclones and X-Clones, 8x and 9x KC Pro and especially the wonderful SE Plastic back in the day. Ooooh, and Discraft had special editions using nice tacky plastic for tour editions of Cyclones, Comets, Stratuseseseses (whatever the correct plural version of Stratus is) with Ron Russell, Scott Stokely and Juliana Bower on the cover. Good stuff, Maynard.

 

[gammaxgoblin]

The answer is Yes. It was normal for the World and USDGC champs only to have signature discs for a long time. It was something very special. Then it started to shift when PMB was supposedly denied additional signature models at Innova (plus some supposed shady black box sales figures something.) There began an increase in sort of rando players getting signature discs, tour series discs, etc. Discraft welcomed PMB and the signature LINE of discs for a player began and more and more players were getting their own signature models not based on achievement or threshold. Then more players got their own LINE of discs, and we are about where we are at now.
(This is the narrative centered around PMB and there have been other players who moved the needle a smidge at times, Doss, etc..) Plus I just ran out of energy when others started coming into my mind.

 

[DanJon]

Didn't Discraft make some popular molds for Cam Todd when he switched from Innova?

 

[biscoe]

Didn't Discraft make some popular molds for Cam Todd when he switched from Innova?

Challengers but I don't recall any others. I wasn't a big Discraft thrower at the time though so maybe there were more.

 

[wims]

It's all about money and has nothing to do with flights

 

[flatflip]

Didn't Discraft make some popular molds for Cam Todd when he switched from Innova?

Challengers but I don't recall any others. I wasn't a big Discraft thrower at the time though so maybe there were more.

Buzz/Wasp came out then as well.

 

[biscoe]

Buzz/Wasp came out then as well.

I don't recall them being Cam Todd sponsorship discs though. The Challenger was already out and they made CT Challengers when they signed Cam as I remember it (which can admittedly be a bit muddy).

 

[chris deitzel]

When Cam left Innova, Discraft had the APX and Magnet as their main putters.

Cam said he would join but only if they made a disc similar in shape to the aviar. The challenger was made for him somewhat imitating the shape of an aviar. Both happened in 2003. But the challenger did not exist until he joined the team.

 

[Three Putt]

Pros were complaining about inconsistent stock even as far back as the Viper. Stokely talked about this in his book, how everybody was trying to hunt down the "metalhead" Viper which was more stable and reliable but they were hard to find. Complaints from the good players were taken seriously and a few innovations followed. First you had Cyclones and soon after X-Clones that all flew the same out of the box (but they still got flippy after a good tree hit or two). Not long after this, KC Pro Plastic and the Discraft plastic they used to make XL's hit the market, and you now had reliable Discs that flew consistently AND survived more than a few tree incursions. It seems logical that feedback from the good players helped sway the manufacturers to innovate thusly.

I sure loved my Cyclones and X-Clones, 8x and 9x KC Pro and especially the wonderful SE Plastic back in the day. Ooooh, and Discraft had special editions using nice tacky plastic for tour editions of Cyclones, Comets, Stratuseseseses (whatever the correct plural version of Stratus is) with Ron Russell, Scott Stokely and Juliana Bower on the cover. Good stuff, Maynard.

There are a lot of factors in these decisions, Pro players being one of them. You have to be careful giving them too much credit, though.

When Millennium started it was generally known that Innova had figured out Pro plastic and some runs of DX actually got really close to Pro plastic as they were tinkering with it. The reason Pro plastic wasn't a thing was because Innova genuinely felt in the mid 90's that there was no market for expensive golf discs. Discraft obviously felt the same since Tournament Pro plastic was sold as a baseline plastic; it was considered an upgrade from Competition plastic by most players but they sold for the same amount. $7 for a golf disc was the ceiling.

Harold Duvall didn't think that was true and he partnered with John Houck to start a separate company specifically to prove that disc golfers would pay more for a more durable plastic. Millennium was basically a guinea pig for $10 golf discs. Once it was clear that Millennium discs were selling, Innova jumped in with the KC Pro line of discs and Discraft was right behind with Elite Pro.

That was 100% a market thing. Innova wasn't going to make specialty runs of Pro plastic discs for sponsored players, they made pro plastic discs once they realized the market was there for them.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

There are a lot of factors in these decisions, Pro players being one of them. You have to be careful giving them too much credit, though.

When Millennium started it was generally known that Innova had figured out Pro plastic and some runs of DX actually got really close to Pro plastic as they were tinkering with it. The reason Pro plastic wasn't a thing was because Innova genuinely felt in the mid 90's that there was no market for expensive golf discs. Discraft obviously felt the same since Tournament Pro plastic was sold as a baseline plastic; it was considered an upgrade from Competition plastic by most players but they sold for the same amount. $7 for a golf disc was the ceiling.

Harold Duvall didn't think that was true and he partnered with John Houck to start a separate company specifically to prove that disc golfers would pay more for a more durable plastic. Millennium was basically a guinea pig for $10 golf discs. Once it was clear that Millennium discs were selling, Innova jumped in with the KC Pro line of discs and Discraft was right behind with Elite Pro.

That was 100% a market thing. Innova wasn't going to make specialty runs of Pro plastic discs for sponsored players, they made pro plastic discs once they realized the market was there for them.

I also remember reading in Stokely's book that he didn't think it would be a good idea at the time for manufacturers to produce Discs that were durable because players wouldn't have to replace as many. He then fessed up to being way wrong about that.

 

[BillFleming]

The pros are so good now that they can 'feel' differences in discs. So, I think it is about flight and royalties....

The pros have a disc they depend on, then they get sponsored by a new company and the new discs don't have a match for one they were used to....so they ask the new company to make them one. That's what happened with Drew Gibson when he first started with Infinite Discs, he was 'co-sponsored' by Legacy and needed an overstable 7 speed that he could forehand (I think those were the details)....so Legacy made the Phantom Warrior....a Rival made flatter and in a different plastic. That gave Drew the disc he wanted. But if it was ONLY about the flight, the disc wouldn't have his name on it.

Furthermore with Drew, he's started his own disc company so that he definitely has the discs/flights he wants and the money from them.

 

[Tomphoolery]

James Conrad would not have gotten his own line if Mcbeth hadn't blazed that trail. MVP wanted to give Conrad superstar treatment, and I feel like player signature lines are becoming part of the deal for being a brand's marquee player. Wysocki is getting his own line too, for example.

Manufacturers had consulted their players and you even had things like the Sexton Firebird and the Emac Truth, which were modified versions of existing molds to suit the namesake players. I'm not sure of any molds that were made entirely new for a certain player before the Mcbeth Discraft line.