When can you change par?

[KniceZ]

This thread confirms that DG hasn't settled on a common understanding of par. Is it the pro score, the score for the skill level the course was designed for, the average of everybody that submits scores?

I like having a standard when I go to other courses but generally I'm disappointed that it's too easy. Using different standards (Gold, Blue, etc) is confusing and complicates course comparison.

I've not played enough tournaments to have a solid rating but I'd consider myself in the 850-maybe 900 range. Personally I don't think I should be getting par. Not everyone should get a trophy.

Until we get a standard definition we might as well not have "par".

 

[DavidSauls]

The standard definition is easier than universal application.

 

[scarpfish]

I don't think that's the best way to do it. It doesn't matter whether the second level of difficulty is created by extra tees or extra targets. If the entire set is designed for a different skill level, it's like a second course that shares the same fairways. I think it's entirely appropriate to assign a different color to those tee/target combos. Even to have multiple colors assigned for the purpose of showing pars for different skill levels.

Steve, you missed my point entirely. You're going on about ideals and I'm trying to tell people how the hole info page is supposed to work as Timg designed it. The color bars at the top are for tees and the radio buttons on the left side are for pins. Reversing these functions screws up scorebook entries, and makes entering correct info for mixed configurations (which are a common occurrence in my circles) impossible. I admit the interface could be better, and have made suggestions to Timg on improving it, but it is what it is at the moment.

But since you've opened this can of worms on alternate tees, pins and difficulty colors, I might remind everyone that an alternate tee or alternate pin, is just that, an alternate, not necessarily an entity that is significantly more or less difficult than it's counterpart.

In many cases, these alternates are retrofitted into existing courses years after the original layout was designed and there's only so much you can do to lengthen things. So you go left or right instead of long, and in many cases this doesn't make the alternate route really any harder or easier than the original, just different, and not really worthy of a different skill level color.

 

[MikeK]

Scarp, both you and Steve are technically correct. I hate to break this to you though but this color scheme works perfectly.

Have you seen a course with two sets of permanent baskets? Like world-famous Pyramids of Marshall Street? It's much easier to list the distances using the color of the baskets rather than using the same tee and an uncolored pin placement. So this color scheme works just the same, for this reason: Pelican Park only places its baskets in either all short or all long. So there's no guessing what placement a certain hole is, you know they're all gold or all blue instead of all A or B. It's less clicks here at DGCReview to do it this way.

 

[Steve West]

Scarp, both you and Steve are technically correct. I hate to break this to you though but this color scheme works perfectly.

Have you seen a course with two sets of permanent baskets? Like world-famous Pyramids of Marshall Street? It's much easier to list the distances using the color of the baskets rather than using the same tee and an uncolored pin placement. So this color scheme works just the same, for this reason: Pelican Park only places its baskets in either all short or all long. So there's no guessing what placement a certain hole is, you know they're all gold or all blue instead of all A or B. It's less clicks here at DGCReview to do it this way.

It may be more accurate to say we're both wrong: we're both trying to fit too much information into a system that wasn't built to handle it. There's no perfect way to do that.

 

[johnrhouck]

And, there aren't any 340ish woods holes that I see in the data that haven't been deuced. And yes, there is a risky route on one of these holes over an OB soccer/football fenced field. Houck or Chuck would point to it as an example of risk/reward in the design. And yes there's a lot of walking in between holes but that's the land that we were given and you can't just squeeze in holes anywhere around the dog park or fields without risking an accidental injury from an errant disc.

Guys, let me just say this about that:

1. I hate to see these discussions getting too personal, but you're all big boys.
2. I don't know the course, and I don't like to offer opinions on other people's designs unless they ask for it. Once Parc des Familles opens, you can send me all the questions you want about it, and I'll discuss it all day.
3. I ain't going anywhere near any discussion of holes that throw over OB soccer/football/baseball fields. Nope. Not gonna do it.

Thanks.

 

[MikeK]

I agree it's wise not to comment on a course you haven't played.

Is Parc Des Familles going to open and if so when?

 

[johnrhouck]

Mike, to the best of my knowledge, nothing has changed since your conversation with Dee last week: the Parish is excited about a grand opening May 19th.

 

[MikeK]

Glad to hear the proposed date is still on schedule John! Fingers crossed.

 

[d11rok]

Pertaining to the initial question, why wouldn't par in disc golf be similar to ball golf? That is, the number of strokes a scratch (ie: 1000 rated) disc golfer would on average require to hole out.

It turns out that even golfers with handicaps in the teens can hit par on a fairly decent basis. Although the par assumes a scratch golfer, there is a lot of room to encompass amateur level play. For example, on a par three 400 feet, what is the difference between a 330 foot drive followed by a 70foot upshot and then drop in versus two 200 foot shots followed by a drop in?

 

[scarpfish]

Scarp, both you and Steve are technically correct. I hate to break this to you though but this color scheme works perfectly.

Have you seen a course with two sets of permanent baskets? Like world-famous Pyramids of Marshall Street? It's much easier to list the distances using the color of the baskets rather than using the same tee and an uncolored pin placement

If we're talking about two actual baskets, then yes, that changes things.

Courses like that tend to be the exception rather than the norm though. I do wish that we could get the features on here changed to distinguish such courses from one where a single basket is moved.

 

[NegaSnapples]

Pertaining to the initial question, why wouldn't par in disc golf be similar to ball golf? That is, the number of strokes a scratch (ie: 1000 rated) disc golfer would on average require to hole out.

It turns out that even golfers with handicaps in the teens can hit par on a fairly decent basis. Although the par assumes a scratch golfer, there is a lot of room to encompass amateur level play. For example, on a par three 400 feet, what is the difference between a 330 foot drive followed by a 70foot upshot and then drop in versus two 200 foot shots followed by a drop in?

Golf courses have the same problem though. That's why there's a slope rating for golf courses when it comes to measuring handicap. Disc golf courses have SSA (Scratch Scoring Average) which is similar I believe.

 

[Three Putt]

Who cares. It's just an imaginary standard that means nothing.

Willie Nelson, asked what par is on a golf course he had recently bought near Austin, Texas: "Anything I want it to be. For instance, this hole right here is a par-47—and yesterday I birdied the sucker."

 

[Steve West]

Pertaining to the initial question, why wouldn't par in disc golf be similar to ball golf? That is, the number of strokes a scratch (ie: 1000 rated) disc golfer would on average require to hole out.

See the Par Talk thread. Or the Rule Book.

But, essentially, that's what par actually is on disc golf - almost. Not exactly average, but the expected score with errorless play. A bunch of random OB penalties that could be avoided shouldn't be included when figuring par.

 

[KniceZ]

I'm just an average DG player and not a well respected course designer or Par expert but for me I'd prefer par to be set on a consistent basis regardless of whether the course was designed for Rec, Intermediate, Advanced or Pro. Sometimes I play all the layouts. I'd like to know how I'd stack up against a Pro (i.e. 1000 rated player) regardless of which layout I play.