When they won't let you throw a thumber....

[armiller]

As for the overhands, I've probably already said this (maybe even in this thread) -- I throw my fair share when the lines are open, but I like it when designers use trees and or mandos to make tomahawks/thumbers higher risk or impossible. Then again, my overhand game was never big distance, and these days it doesn't get me much more than 220'.

As for the three tee thing, I just have an observation. I like me some good John Houck designs, and I do believe he's started going for 3 tees instead of two like he used to. I like Selah and Trey very much (only long and short tees), and they were some of the first top level courses that I played. But at all four of those, the shorts are too easy, and the longs are a bit too tough. When I played Harmony Bends, one of the strengths was the "goldilocks" middle tee on most of the holes. My point is that Houck now seems to find benefit in designing for the three-tee setup, and it only makes the course better when done right.

That said, not every designer or every course can pull off 3 tees. For every Moraine, Deer Lakes, or Harmony Bends, there are 50 lesser courses out there that probably would NOT benefit from 3 sets of tees. Two is more than enough for most courses, especially if there are decent rotations of basket placements, or even two permanent baskets on each hole, as occurs frequently in VA & WV.

Did this all stem from the guy's bogus review talking about knocking the course because there weren't enough tees? Give me one good set of tees over three bad ones any day.

 

[DavidSauls]

Did this all stem from the guy's bogus review talking about knocking the course because there weren't enough tees? Give me one good set of tees over three bad ones any day.

Specifically, he docked it 1 disc because it didn't have red tees, which would have been a third set. I'm not sure if that means he thinks a course should have 3 tees; or that he just thinks it should have tees to suit that skill level, regardless of number of tees; or that he just likes red.

It started at my amusement over his docking it 1 disc due to the net that prevents an overhand on one hole---partly because that's not exactly what the net's for, and partly because of my affection for that particular net.

 

[ToddL]

Now, I'm a firm believer in the sanctity of opinions...

Absolutely.

[looks at reviewer's other ratings]

Nevermind.

 

[DavidSauls]

Thinking of two guys who built a course with a single set of tees---hey, either you like it, or you don't, but the owners do---and who have been frantically waiting for some trees to grow in and cut off a few overhand routes, because a net is impractical, I can only imagine the kind of review is in store if he ever visits.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I'm trying to figure out if we'd even be having this conversation (or any of the numerous "Can you believe this review of course XYZ?!" threads/posts) if... reviews didn't have any ratings at all?

Say the very same review (ripping the course for it's "anti-overhand" bias, and lack of 3rd (shorter) set of tees) came with a rating of 4.0 or 4.5... are we still having this conversation?

Don't get me wrong - I like the ratings. And people have pointed out many times, once a course reaches a critical mass of reviews, the good calls and the bad calls tend to balance out, and no single rating has a profound impact on the overall score.

 

[Plankeye]

That net on 16 isn't new either. It was there the first time i played the course several years ago.

 

[sjberry2017]

I wonder how the review differs if it's simply a big branch (or a few branches) that obscured the "thumber" line instead of a net? Like would it even occur to the reviewer if it were a natural obstruction as opposed to an obvious man-made one? I mean, it's an easy argument to make that leaving branches in that line is as much a conscious design decision as putting up the net, but it probably doesn't get nearly the notice or the derision.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for someone not being able to throw their preferred or best shot on every hole, whether it's a thumber or a forehand or a backhand. Diversify your arsenal or learn to adapt. Don't blame the course design for your shortcomings.

(What I'm going to argue here is the idea of putting a net up to restrict a shot because you don't like the shot like what you argue above, not the OP issue where it's to keep discs out of a yard).

I would say what you're referring to is a bit different though. In that situation, I may still have the thumber line, it just may not be as optimal due to wherever the branch is; either OI haver to shorten it up a bit to where I'd maybe have, at best, a thirty foot putt, or only be able to hit a landing zone in one particular spot. Compared to messing up a backhand or forehand shot on the hole though, that may be the more preferred high percentage shot. The net, however, completely removes the ability to throw that shot, period. I can't utilize a skill I have in my arsenal to minimize the dangers and risk/reward on a hole because it hurts the course designer's feelings or frustrates them beyond belief that I can avoid their perfect obstacle in the fairway. It's a conscious choice to completely remove that obstacle, rather than make the risk/reward so difficult that I can't take the shot if I choose to. A designer should be setting the hole up so I have to balance the risk/reward and execution of each possible shot off the tee or in the fairway. Using what's there to do it is cool. Artificial obstacles seriously detract from that.

 

[JC17393]

(What I'm going to argue here is the idea of putting a net up to restrict a shot because you don't like the shot like what you argue above, not the OP issue where it's to keep discs out of a yard).

I would say what you're referring to is a bit different though. In that situation, I may still have the thumber line, it just may not be as optimal due to wherever the branch is; either OI haver to shorten it up a bit to where I'd maybe have, at best, a thirty foot putt, or only be able to hit a landing zone in one particular spot. Compared to messing up a backhand or forehand shot on the hole though, that may be the more preferred high percentage shot. The net, however, completely removes the ability to throw that shot, period. I can't utilize a skill I have in my arsenal to minimize the dangers and risk/reward on a hole because it hurts the course designer's feelings or frustrates them beyond belief that I can avoid their perfect obstacle in the fairway. It's a conscious choice to completely remove that obstacle, rather than make the risk/reward so difficult that I can't take the shot if I choose to. A designer should be setting the hole up so I have to balance the risk/reward and execution of each possible shot off the tee or in the fairway. Using what's there to do it is cool. Artificial obstacles seriously detract from that.

Not every hole is supposed to afford the player infinite options nor their preferred options. I'll stand by what I said. If it were a branch or collection of branches that blocked off the overhand...a natural "net" if you will...no one would say boo about it. Which means it's not a design objection, it's an aesthetic objection. I don't agree with that but I can understand the argument.

From a pure course design/play perspective though, I see nothing negative about the net.

 

[DavidSauls]

We've certainly designed some holes and placed some tees where overhands were completely obstructed---by natural means. And wished I had a net for a couple of holes (one of which has just about grown in to preclude overhands, and the other is getting dicey).

As well as left plenty of holes with OH options, for those who want them, as well.

The same course that prompted this discussion, Ashe County, may have a net on one hole, but has another (to the blue basket) which just screams for OH on the second and third throw, as you have to clear two separate walls of vegetation.

 

[Casey 1988]

As for the overhands, I've probably already said this (maybe even in this thread) -- I throw my fair share when the lines are open, but I like it when designers use trees and or mandos to make tomahawks/thumbers higher risk or impossible. Then again, my overhand game was never big distance, and these days it doesn't get me much more than 220'.

As for the three tee thing, I just have an observation. I like me some good John Houck designs, and I do believe he's started going for 3 tees instead of two like he used to. I like Selah and Trey very much (only long and short tees), and they were some of the first top level courses that I played. But at all four of those, the shorts are too easy, and the longs are a bit too tough. When I played Harmony Bends, one of the strengths was the "goldilocks" middle tee on most of the holes. My point is that Houck now seems to find benefit in designing for the three-tee setup, and it only makes the course better when done right.

That said, not every designer or every course can pull off 3 tees. For every Moraine, Deer Lakes, or Harmony Bends, there are 50 lesser courses out there that probably would NOT benefit from 3 sets of tees. Two is more than enough for most courses, especially if there are decent rotations of basket placements, or even two permanent baskets on each hole, as occurs frequently in VA & WV.

Did this all stem from the guy's bogus review talking about knocking the course because there weren't enough tees? Give me one good set of tees over three bad ones any day.

I agree as our local good just out of town course has 2 tee pads and two pin locations so it makes for about 4 locations though they only have one set of baskets.

 

[Beable]

Pretty lame that that review now has 1 of 30 helpful after this thread. Well 2 now that I went and hit it. It's clear that the guy played the course and has an opinion. Seems reasonable to me that maybe he decided that a course has to have tees for beginners to garner a high rating in his personal rating system. Everyone has different standards for how they decide how many disks the course gets.

 

[DavidSauls]

Pretty lame that that review now has 1 of 30 helpful after this thread. Well 2 now that I went and hit it. It's clear that the guy played the course and has an opinion. Seems reasonable to me that maybe he decided that a course has to have tees for beginners to garner a high rating in his personal rating system. Everyone has different standards for how they decide how many disks the course gets.

Just as reviewers have their own standards, review readers have theirs, including what they consider "helpful". This isn't a much different result than all of his other reviews, except in quantity, from the attention garnered.

When I instigated this particular thread, I stated that I'm fine with his review and rating. I just found humor in the reasoning.

But it doesn't say much to be helpful. I guess you can read between the lines and think that, if he docked it 1 for the net and 1 for the lack of short tees, then the course is otherwise a 5 to him, and take that as a recommendation if the net and short tees don't matter to you.

 

[ejvogie]

Pretty lame that a reviewer can have an opinion about a course, but readers aren't allowed an opinion on that review.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Pretty lame that a reviewer can have an opinion about a course, but readers aren't allowed an opinion on that review.

Pretty lame that readers can have an opinion about a review, but you're still ejvogie.

 

[ejvogie]

Pretty lame that readers can have an opinion about a review, but you're still ejvogie.

You're not wrong






:sigh:

 

[ChrisWoj]

You're not wrong






:sigh:

Its okay, I love you Eric you're my buddy! You run the best Vibram events Toledo has ever seen!

 

[ejvogie]

I win by default



Do you still own the dog-chewed Roc?

-edit- The reverse CTP Race might be my best DG idea ever

 

[pmay5]

The same course that prompted this discussion, Ashe County, may have a net on one hole, but has another (to the blue basket) which just screams for OH on the second and third throw, as you have to clear two separate walls of vegetation.

Good point, I rarely through Thumbers, usually only when I'm in the woods and that's the only line. Ashe County actually has a hole that about the only way to play it is with a thumber. How many holes have you played where you have to throw a thumber? The OP should appreciate that hole.