Where does all the am money go in tournments

[Script]

Amen.

Amen that Amen

 

[Cgkdisc]

If TDs actually made much money running events, Park Depts everywhere would be running events by now and following the classic amateur non-payout model with mainly trophies, ribbons and some CTP prizes. But they're not...

 

[Improbably]

if the players all leave happy why would you care if the TD made a boatload of money?

The players all leaving happy is a good thing. If a TD can make a boatload of money and devote a boatload of money to the course that would be great, but its unlikely there is enough money to do that.

I'm not sure why, its a matter of personal taste really, but I do care. If I play an event for fundraising or charity I feel good about it. I simply would not play an event being run for the profit of the TD. Even a good event at a good course with good payouts. I'm just not interested. If money is made, I want a significant portion of it to go back into disc golf courses.

 

[1978]

1. For TDs/etc who hate DGers, why do you do it? Why bother?

2. For AMs who hate tournaments/TDs, why do it? Why bother?

For AM players, you can spend the money on discs directly, if bang for buck is your concern, and compete against yourself for free, or your fellows who don't believe competition means somebody has to lose, and stop getting an ulcer about your ROI. The fact that you play a tournament even though you're worried you're not "getting your money's worth" means you're getting some value beyond that, even if you don't realize it. Think about it.

DG is a sport/activity that has deep counterculture roots, and since DG is barely 40 yrs old, how far do we expect it to have evolved from that? It's one thing not to like the fact. It's another to hate it, despise it, and spit vitriol at the demographic that makes up most of where this game came from and currently is. It makes me wonder, why? Maybe there's a better hobby for you? Like neighborhood watch, or church social committee.

Anyways, on balance I'd prefer lower registration costs and no player pack, and I don't feel like I need to get "paid" for finishing in the middle of the pack in INT. I also agree that "bad" TDs likely don't last long, and that TDs don't have to feel like they need to be NGOs.

We are on different sides. Am tournaments with payout provided by a company that has discs from multiple manufacturers (DD, Strange Discs, LS, Sunking, etc) is the single best/cost effective way for smaller companies to grow and provide competition for the larger companies. Everyone has an Aviar, not everyone has a Spike most people will only get the Spike because they have funny money to spend. Additionally, this exchange encourages the DD's of the world to run tournaments.

The arguements involving other sports are irrelevant. They do not have as many fledgling companies trying to grow. Adidias, Nike, Penn, Champion, etc have plenty of money to push their new products to Am's through advertising. Westside does not. So a local trophy only Tennis tournament does not compare, becuase no one is trying to sell 10 fancy tennis bags or has recently entered the Tennis ball market. This is done by major brands that have the money to expand and compete. disc golf is not this way, to compare them means you havent thought the arguement through.

If you kill Am payouts, you will kill start ups. Innova and Discraft would salavate to have trophy only. It kills their competition. Charlotte is moving towards that and it is the wrong thing to do for the sport...but the right thing for Charlotte who is 99.9% innova payout anyway.

It is a simple fact that if you get $100 in merch you spend it on discs. If you get a trophy, players pack, and lower entry. You will keep your $10, put your trophy in a closet and the players pack will be an Innova or MAYBE a discraft disc. And dont give me some BS about getting a DD disc in a payout ONCE. A majority of players packs are Innova discs. And it is a disc you dont care about.

To keep on topic. Am trophy events only encourage TD's to push actual cash over to the pro's. That means start ups dont get their discs trialed AND local Am's/quasi pro's have more of their funds transferred to a traveling disc golfer. Its better for disc golf for the local plaeyrs to be sporting a wide variety of discs to their peers who might purchase them with winnings or order them than to have Nikko show up for 2 days. If the PDGA went to trophy only across the board you would see 3-4 companies close shop in a few years...

 

[Harrishabitat]

The players all leaving happy is a good thing. If a TD can make a boatload of money and devote a boatload of money to the course that would be great, but its unlikely there is enough money to do that.

I'm not sure why, its a matter of personal taste really, but I do care. If I play an event for fundraising or charity I feel good about it. I simply would not play an event being run for the profit of the TD. Even a good event at a good course with good payouts. I'm just not interested. If money is made, I want a significant portion of it to go back into disc golf courses.

That's totally a fair opinion...Obviously we have very different feelings but I can respect your opinion... I was just curious. Myself, I want as much profit to be in the sport, that way corporations will be enticed to participate and the sport will grow which means there will be much more money for courses in the long run.

 

[sidewinder22]

We are on different sides. Am tournaments with payout provided by a company that has discs from multiple manufacturers (DD, Strange Discs, LS, Sunking, etc) is the single best/cost effective way for smaller companies to grow and provide competition for the larger companies. Everyone has an Aviar, not everyone has a Spike most people will only get the Spike because they have funny money to spend. Additionally, this exchange encourages the DD's of the world to run tournaments.

The arguements involving other sports are irrelevant. They do not have as many fledgling companies trying to grow. Adidias, Nike, Penn, Champion, etc have plenty of money to push their new products to Am's through advertising. Westside does not. So a local trophy only Tennis tournament does not compare, becuase no one is trying to sell 10 fancy tennis bags or has recently entered the Tennis ball market. This is done by major brands that have the money to expand and compete. disc golf is not this way, to compare them means you havent thought the arguement through.

If you kill Am payouts, you will kill start ups. Innova and Discraft would salavate to have trophy only. It kills their competition. Charlotte is moving towards that and it is the wrong thing to do for the sport...but the right thing for Charlotte who is 99.9% innova payout anyway.

It is a simple fact that if you get $100 in merch you spend it on discs. If you get a trophy, players pack, and lower entry. You will keep your $10, put your trophy in a closet and the players pack will be an Innova or MAYBE a discraft disc. And dont give me some BS about getting a DD disc in a payout ONCE. A majority of players packs are Innova discs. And it is a disc you dont care about.

To keep on topic. Am trophy events only encourage TD's to push actual cash over to the pro's. That means start ups dont get their discs trialed AND local Am's/quasi pro's have more of their funds transferred to a traveling disc golfer. Its better for disc golf for the local plaeyrs to be sporting a wide variety of discs to their peers who might purchase them with winnings or order them than to have Nikko show up for 2 days. If the PDGA went to trophy only across the board you would see 3-4 companies close shop in a few years...

I think Ace Races and Birdie Bashes have their own place in the grand scheme of things which accomplish what you are saying, but they don't do much to promote high level competition which is what PDGA events should be doing instead of creating "AM payouts" which really undermines competition and the motive to move up. Really there should be separate organizations for Pros and Ams and Recs/Juniors.

 

[chainedwraith]

In our club, we like to make the tournaments all about the players. We raise money all year round ($1 per player at weekly leagues, plus fundraisers) and we keep our tourney budget separate from basic club general fund.

Club general fund goes back into the course. Tourney fund goes into the tourney. Our club and supporting members pay for lunch both days, players packs, sick looking laser engraved glass trophies for most divisions, city fees, PDGA sanctioning app fee, printing materials, etc etc etc.. We don't take a dime from players entry to cover those things. The money we raised all year (via leagues and unsanctioned fundraisers) to pay for these things is FOR THE PLAYERS and PLAYERS ONLY.

Am entries minus small PDGA player fee + 10% added cash = what we consider to be 110% Am payout (online store vouchers from title/lead sponsor who put in added pro cash and provides/handles online registration for our event). We're trying for 115% am payout next year. All Ams that attended our event last year LOVED their payout and everything we worked hard to provide for them. As TD's, my co-TD and myself took NOTHING, expected NOTHING, but a few thank you's and the joy of seeing all of our friends have a great time on a course that we worked very hard to bring to the level that it is today.

Pro entries minus PDGA player fee + $500+ added cash from title sponsor = pro payout.. We also give pros a players pack, something not every tourney does. Next year, our goal is $1000 added cash to pros..

We also raised an extra $250 for pro gorilla skins finale after Sunday's 3rd round. Looking to do that again this year too since everyone seemed to have a great time watching the top pro's drop massive bomb shots all over the property.

There was also a separate $10 CTP fund.. Pros/Ams played from same tee pads during 2nd round and each of the 10 CTP's were worth $1 for every player that entered.. so Am players had a chance to win some side cash (about $83 each CTP flag this past year). Everybody loved this.. it was borrowed from another neighboring club that does this at their event. I wish more tourneys would do this!

Sure, our title/lead sponsor who puts up the extra cash to pros and discounts the Am payout vouchers still makes a decent amount at the end of the day, but this only assures that there remains an incentive for them to want to help us out the next year. Also, said sponsor has donated baskets and tee signs, etc to our course so we are extremely grateful to have their continued support. Other than that, there is no individual profiteering on behalf of our club leadership or TD's.

A good tourney, IMO, is all about the players and what you can do to ensure that they have a good time and want to come back next year. Having played in over 40 sanctioned events from all over my state before attempting to TD one, we took the best of what we experienced at all the tourneys we played and tried to apply those things to our tourney. For a couple of rookie TD's, I think we did everything exactly how we would have liked it to be and next year we only look to make it even bigger and better.

Support your local clubs and thank your local TD's if you like coming to their events. For some TD's, those thank you's are all they expect!

 

[Improbably]

That's totally a fair opinion...Obviously we have very different feelings but I can respect your opinion... I was just curious.

Thank you. I respect yours, and respect your civility.

Myself, I want as much profit to be in the sport, that way corporations will be enticed to participate and the sport will grow which means there will be much more money for courses in the long run.

I dont's see corporations actually adding money to the sport. Will they ever put more money into Disc golf than they are making from disc golf; no. Corporations will be a great way to funnel revenue from spectators, who may or may not ever arrive, into disc golf. Until those spectators come into existence money made off of disc golf is made off of disc golfers. So until the spectators arrive keeping profit out of disc golf, is in my opinion, a better way for disc golf to grow.

 

[cjrogus]

So Far after 4 tournaments I've ran I'm right back at even. The first tournament was a fundraiser we made 700$ to help the club and course. With that we have bought discs, concrete, stones, crush-n-run, 2 baskets and food for the other 3 tournaments that have all broken even. In May we'll have our next fundraiser that will help pay for 2014 and the cycle will continue.

As the club President I have also funnel a good amount of my money into the club and course and have no problem cause I get a sense of pride that follows. I'm definitely not making out with anything and tournament money goes right back to the players.

 

[mashnut]

The players all leaving happy is a good thing. If a TD can make a boatload of money and devote a boatload of money to the course that would be great, but its unlikely there is enough money to do that.

I'm not sure why, its a matter of personal taste really, but I do care. If I play an event for fundraising or charity I feel good about it. I simply would not play an event being run for the profit of the TD. Even a good event at a good course with good payouts. I'm just not interested. If money is made, I want a significant portion of it to go back into disc golf courses.

To me that's like saying you're not going to go to Dinsneyland unless all the money is going to building more theme parks and nobody's making any money. If it's not a moneymaking enterprise then there's no incentive for people to put real time and effort into being better TDs and putting on better events. I play tournaments because I really like the organized competition, and I specifically pick events that have other cool side events when possible. I don't play because I need more plastic, and I certainly don't make a decision based on not supporting TDs who manage to not lose money. There's real value in what TDs do for us, and I think it's unfair and self-defeating to continue forcing them to do it at a loss if we actually want our events to grow and be more professional.

 

[sidewinder22]

This is where having monthlies, or other small scale non-sanctioned tournaments help. something like a 1 day 2 round $20 entry event. Makes it alot easier for casuals to start learning about tournament play in an environment where everyone else won't be too serious about rules or etiquette. For a long time in my area there was either weekly league or PDGA tournaments for $40+(for am2/rec) and nothing in between, but this is changing and I think it will help.

This is one of the posts I actually agree with Luke on. Disc golf in MD was strongest when Disc Outfitters was running non-PDGA monthlies.

 

[Improbably]

In our club, we like to make the tournaments all about the players. We raise money all year round ($1 per player at weekly leagues, plus fundraisers) and we keep our tourney budget separate from basic club general fund.

Support your local clubs and thank your local TD's if you like coming to their events. For some TD's, those thank you's are all they expect!

It sounds like you are doing a great job running a great tourney. But your fundraising seems to be very focused on the tourney. How does your club raise money for its general fund?

 

[JC17393]

Thank you. I respect yours, and respect your civility.



I dont's see corporations actually adding money to the sport. Will they ever put more money into Disc golf than they are making from disc golf; no. Corporations will be a great way to funnel revenue from spectators, who may or may not ever arrive, into disc golf. Until those spectators come into existence money made off of disc golf is made off of disc golfers. So until the spectators arrive keeping profit out of disc golf, is in my opinion, a better way for disc golf to grow.

If you aim to keep profit out of disc golf, doesn't that discourage the corporations already in the sport (disc companies, bag companies, retail outlets, etc) from investing back into it? Or is profit for them okay, but you draw the line at tournament organizers?

We talk a lot about how we aren't going to find corporate sponsorship until we provide them an audience to sell to. Well, we already have some corporate sponsors whose only audience is disc golfers in disc golf companies. I think we're only scratching the surface of what they can provide to continue to build tournaments.

We need to grow more disc golf oriented businesses, which would be difficult if this "profit is bad" mentality prevails. One disc golf oriented business in particular that we lack at the moment but could greatly benefit from is professional event organizers. Dynamic is taking a step in that direction with their tour. Other areas have set-ups similar (Mr. Disc Golf in the Mid-Atlantic, for example). If these kinds of ventures could grow to a point where an individual TD or even a tournament staff could be sustained by running a series of events, there really isn't a downside for the long term growth of the game IMO. Such established entities would probably go a long way toward legitimizing our game in the eyes of potential outside sponsors. It takes a much bigger leap of faith, even on a small scale, for companies to hand free money to one individual or a group/club at one course than it would be to hand free money to another business.

 

[youdidwell]

If you aim to keep profit out of disc golf, doesn't that discourage the corporations already in the sport (disc companies, bag companies, retail outlets, etc) from investing back into it? Or is profit for them okay, but you draw the line at tournament organizers?

We talk a lot about how we aren't going to find corporate sponsorship until we provide them an audience to sell to. Well, we already have some corporate sponsors whose only audience is disc golfers in disc golf companies. I think we're only scratching the surface of what they can provide to continue to build tournaments.

We need to grow more disc golf oriented businesses, which would be difficult if this "profit is bad" mentality prevails. One disc golf oriented business in particular that we lack at the moment but could greatly benefit from is professional event organizers. Dynamic is taking a step in that direction with their tour. Other areas have set-ups similar (Mr. Disc Golf in the Mid-Atlantic, for example). If these kinds of ventures could grow to a point where an individual TD or even a tournament staff could be sustained by running a series of events, there really isn't a downside for the long term growth of the game IMO. Such established entities would probably go a long way toward legitimizing our game in the eyes of potential outside sponsors. It takes a much bigger leap of faith, even on a small scale, for companies to hand free money to one individual or a group/club at one course than it would be to hand free money to another business.

I think his point was you aren't going get to corporate participation unless they are making money. Right now, the only businesses that can make money by supporting disc golf is from disc golfers. So only disc makers, bag makers, etc. would see a return on their investment but other businesses would not. I don't think he was totally against profits as you state it. I think he was saying reinvesting into disc golf any potential tourney profits would be a greater benefit to the sport at this time then the TD themselves making money.

 

[Harrishabitat]

I think his point was you aren't going get to corporate participation unless they are making money. Right now, the only businesses that can make money by supporting disc golf is from disc golfers. So disc makers, bag makers, etc. would see a return on their investment. I don't think he was totally against profits as you state it. I think he was saying reinvesting into disc golf any potential tourney profits would be a greater benefit to the sport at this time then the TD themselves making money.

Ok but that is a short sighted mentality in my opinion... Events are the critical element for profits and growth in any sport. In our sport TD's are the front line when it comes to more events. If there is profits for the TD (individual or business) then we will see more events which means more players, more marketing, etc... Incentive is the key factor in everything in life

 

[Improbably]

I think his point was you aren't going get to corporate participation unless they are making money. Right now, the only businesses that can make money by supporting disc golf is from disc golfers. So only disc makers, bag makers, etc. would see a return on their investment but other businesses would not. I don't think he was totally against profits as you state it. I think he was saying reinvesting into disc golf any potential tourney profits would be a greater benefit to the sport at this time then the TD themselves making money.

Yes, very well said.

 

[Improbably]

Ok but that is a short sighted mentality in my opinion... Events are the critical element for profits and growth in any sport. In our sport TD's are the front line when it comes to more events. If there is profits for the TD (individual or business) then we will see more events which means more players, more marketing, etc... Incentive is the key factor in everything in life

Incentive is not necessarily monetary, or not necessarily monetary self interest. I had the incentive to raise money for my dilapidated home course. In 2012 I ran one event. In 2013 I ran two and a weekly doubles. This year I have 4 planned, might do a fifth, and will be doing a weekly tag league and doubles. My incentive is contribution to the disc golf courses I love.

 

[JC17393]

I think his point was you aren't going get to corporate participation unless they are making money. Right now, the only businesses that can make money by supporting disc golf is from disc golfers. So only disc makers, bag makers, etc. would see a return on their investment but other businesses would not. I don't think he was totally against profits as you state it. I think he was saying reinvesting into disc golf any potential tourney profits would be a greater benefit to the sport at this time then the TD themselves making money.

And my point was that I think an under-utilized and potential growth-oriented disc golf "business" would be professional TDs. TDs that run events for a profit that then roll that profit back into bigger, better, and more visible events down the road.

But if TDs aren't allowed to make money themselves, that whole idea is cut off as an option.

 

[Improbably]

And my point was that I think an under-utilized and potential growth-oriented disc golf "business" would be professional TDs. TDs that run events for a profit that then roll that profit back into bigger, better, and more visible events down the road.

But if TDs aren't allowed to make money themselves, that whole idea is cut off as an option.

That would be great and similar to the very well run event chainedwraith described above, but if the professional TD is feeding the profit back into disc golf it's not really profit for the TD. A TD that would do this sounds great as far as my sensibilities toward the sport are concerned, but they would not be running a successful business.

 

[Harrishabitat]

And my point was that I think an under-utilized and potential growth-oriented disc golf "business" would be professional TDs. TDs that run events for a profit that then roll that profit back into bigger, better, and more visible events down the road.

But if TDs aren't allowed to make money themselves, that whole idea is cut off as an option.

I wish there was a emoticon for a bigger :clap: Exactly!!!!