Why overstable for OH?

[GLong]

Yes there is a lot more torque. And learning to control it (by learning the shot with less stable plastic) will benefit you in the long run. This is directly from Big Jerm's Discraft team member page:

"Try throwing less stable discs to start off with. Great discs to start off with are the Comet, Meteor, Stratus or Avenger SS."

If you can't FH an understable driver at least 200' on a relatively straight line then you got more OAT than Quaker. I'm not saying that you have a terrible forehand, or that you can't throw it for more D than me (I top out around 350' FH). But if you can only throw overstable plastic then you don't really have any shot shaping ability with it.

 

[zenbot]

I apologize. I thought this thread was about overhand shots.

 

[GLong]

I was responding to this:

I'd have to disagree as well. Learning forehand and backhand are different. There's a lot more torque on a sidearm shot where the understable stuff will just flip. Forehand is something you can have a lot of power right away.

sorry for going OT. I just get tired of the constant chorus of 'use overstable for FH/OH' that I hear around here all the time.

 

[bergdawg]

Yes there is a lot more torque. And learning to control it (by learning the shot with less stable plastic) will benefit you in the long run. This is directly from Big Jerm's Discraft team member page:

"Try throwing less stable discs to start off with. Great discs to start off with are the Comet, Meteor, Stratus or Avenger SS."

If you can't FH an understable driver at least 200' on a relatively straight line then you got more OAT than Quaker. I'm not saying that you have a terrible forehand, or that you can't throw it for more D than me (I top out around 350' FH). But if you can only throw overstable plastic then you don't really have any shot shaping ability with it.

Is that quote in regards to forehand shots or any shot in general? I'm not sure what you mean by "shot shaping" with OS discs. A straight anny shot that finishes anny is tough with a OS disc, but certainly not impossible. In fact, I think it's easier and more predictable to throw an S-shot with an overstable disc.

 

[sidewinder22]

quick and easy....

simple answer: Because most people naturally put a lot of snap and power into their forehand and need an overstable disc that they cant "turn over" or flip "sideways into a roller".

more complex answer:
On a more fundamental and philosophical approach... i've determined that instead of adapting one's throw to a FH disc, it's a lot better to find a disc that works for you; albeit understable, stable, overstable.. <whatever> ...as long as you can put it flat and drive it a good distance, it works.

my basic thought for a FH is simple... Walk up, dont think and "throw" (*Maybe 75%*)... not hard, not soft, but the "same every time"...
if the disc flips up (toward the face plate) and turns into a roller, you either have: too much power, not throwing flat (anhyzer - outer edge up), or too much of an understable disc. - Get heavier or more overstable.
if the disc flips down (toward the underside) and turns into a roller, you either have: not enough power, not throwing flat (hyzer - outer edge down), or too much of an overstable disc. - Get a lighter or understable.

The basic thought is that you should be able to throw a disc <table top> flat. Once you get that, discs can (and will) perform exactly like the backhand performance when throw correctly (ie. "s" curves, turnover, hyzer, etc.) The key is finding discs that you can throw flat - the "stability" is not necessarily the key element; finding the disc that works for you is. From there, you can adjust accordingly based on the performance you need.

Do note.... overhand (thumber, tomahawk) and FH throws are very rough on the human body. I try not to do overhand shots, and i use an elbow brace when i play as excessive FH throwing gives me "tennis elbow" like symptoms.

Not sure why the FH discussion came into this...FH and OH are different animals in flight and this just sounds like the recipe for FH OAT. Well I'm flipping my Firebird...I need a different disc like a Max now so I can throw it with the same oat.

 

[GLong]

Is that quote in regards to forehand shots or any shot in general? I'm not sure what you mean by "shot shaping" with OS discs. A straight anny shot that finishes anny is tough with a OS disc, but certainly not impossible. In fact, I think it's easier and more predictable to throw an S-shot with an overstable disc.

It applies to both FH and BH but he is referring to FH. Check the link.

If you throw an anhyzer shot that finishes with that angle, then the disc is not that overstable. A true 'S-shot' would finish with hyzer, otherwise it would be a 'half-S shot' or maybe a 'question mark shot' lol

 

[bergdawg]

It applies to both FH and BH but he is referring to FH. Check the link.

If you throw an anhyzer shot that finishes with that angle, then the disc is not that overstable. A true 'S-shot' would finish with hyzer, otherwise it would be a 'half-S shot' or maybe a 'question mark shot' lol

If you have enough power you can do it with an overstable disc. I've seen it many times, albeit, they were short holes with an Ape or Boss.

I worded that kind of funky I guess. I meant that an s-shot would be a lot easier with an overstable disc rather than an understable disc.

 

[whiz]

Easiest test ever for Forehand OAT. When you finish your throw is your palm facing the sky? If it is not you are torquing the shot. If you want to learn to throw a repeatable FH shot all you have to do is practice throwing a forehand with your palm facing the sky during the whole shot. Easy. Go try it. It is not that hard. All it takes is some practice.

Start throwing FH with understable/neutral discs/putters/midranges. If you start with overstable/fast discs you will have to unconsciously add torque to the shot to get them to fly straight. This will limit your ability to throw a forehand with other discs and limit your growth/ability to play disc golf.

For overhand shots a more understable disc will flip FASTER and fly shorter. It will usually be more predictable for someone just starting to throw overhand shots. A more overstable disc will flip SLOWER and go further but will require more right to left room to shape the shot. With an overstable disc, the shot with the most distance potential has the disc being released vertical over one's head at an angle of about 45 degrees if looking at the thrower from the side (ie. directly to the right or left of the teepad with the angle being created by the trajectory of the disc and a straight (imaginary) line toward the target aimed at). You can, however, control the turn of the disc by throwing the disc closer to parallel to the ground (with the flightplate toward the ground). For tighter holes I will throw my stable firebird with an angle of about 30-45 degrees if you were looking at me from in front of the teepad or behind (angle created by the silhouette/edge of the disc relative to the ground).

 

[whiz]

To Bergdawg,

You are correct in that you can throw a forehand with a stable disc and have it hold the angle all the way to the ground. To do this use the plane of your shoulders and roll your wrist during the shot. To visualize this, imagine how a pitcher leans back before the pitch, raising his left shoulder. Similarly, your left shoulder should start high and finish low while your right shoulder should do the opposite, starting low and behind you and finishing high. Basically just do the opposite of what I wrote in the last post about the palm. Finish a forehand shot with your palm facing the ground and you will have the "power" to flip a firebird or max. Happy golfing!

 

[Smigles]

Different discs for different lines, as with any other throw... Sometimes you want a understable, sometimes you want a overstable disc.

Yes, that was painfully obvious, wasnt it ? The question was equaly painful, thanks alot.

 

[Triflusal]

Do note.... overhand (thumber, tomahawk) and FH throws are very rough on the human body. I try not to do overhand shots, and i use an elbow brace when i play as excessive FH throwing gives me "tennis elbow" like symptoms.

If you throw overhand and forehand wrong, you will hurt yourself. If you do it right, you will be fine.

If you have pain, you are doing it wrong.

 

[Triflusal]

quick and easy....

simple answer: Because most people naturally put a lot of snap and power into their forehand and need an overstable disc that they cant "turn over" or flip "sideways into a roller".

Putting snap on a disc does not make it flip into a roller. Snap stabilizes a disc, by the means of more spin.

OAT, on the other hand, does flip a disc. OAT is very common in sidearm throws, and that is why more overstable plastic is (wrongly) preferred.

 

[djjeremiahj]

Putting snap on a disc does not make it flip into a roller. Snap stabilizes a disc, by the means of more spin.

OAT, on the other hand, does flip a disc. OAT is very common in sidearm throws, and that is why more overstable plastic is (wrongly) preferred.

says the guy with less than 1 year of experience.

i see that you want to be contrarian just to make your words be written online.

re: If you throw wrong it wont hurt?
this is why most of the pro's i know try not to throw sidearm, and all say "i try not to throw sidearm as it will mess up my arm?" - this isnt to say they dont understand the need and necessity of the FH, but choose not to make it their primary method out of darwinism.
and
why all the best sidearm guys i know have elbow problems? (can you throw a disc over 425' FH? i can... can you get a disc to turn over and "s" curve sidearm... i can... i throw (almost) equally BH and FH, and i *advise* anyone that throwing FH isnt good for the arm - this isnt to say "stop" it's just an advsory that doing so, consistently will probably cause pain.

Overstable plastic is "wrongly" preferred? could it be that most people grew up throwing a baseball and learned to (in essence") snap a disc and put torque on it via the repetative motions they learned as a kid?
could it be that the FH throw is natural to most and the sidearm throw is really easy to put torque and snap on?
If you actually read my post, i actually said, "dont adjust your throw to accomodate the disc, find a disc that works for your throw..." and then i went into methods of determining how to pick a disc that works for you, based on the results you are getting.

my words are based on the hundreds of hours i've spent playing, not the few tens of hours i've spent reading this forum. Trial and error beats pure research. My home course is golden gate park... its not a "gimme" park..... i play on a long "very technical" course that requires precision in the 300-375' range on almost every hole and requires both BH and FH skills to be competative. It's always windy and has tons of trees. I live 5 blocks away and i play 4-5 times a week, for up to 48 holes per time. I play for money almost every time i step on the course - I am not the best guy out there, but i can say that my bag tag number never rises above 50 (out of 225+). Unlike many, i do spend my weekends being "disc golf" ambassador teaching lesser skilled guys how to throw, about the course and how to improve.

:wall:

i see that my words are (again) challenged by the "know it alls" of the world and i will recede back into my own world and my own successes as a disc golfer... i guess i dont need to share my wisdom, knowledge and information to those trying to get better.
:doh:

 

[Connor Jones]

I think I'd rather take triflusal's advice over yours any day though .

Must suck that every single post you make on here gets ridiculed because you seem to have no idea what you're talking about.

Also,i'm really tired of people trying to use the "Years playing" as a factor in skill/knowledge.

Because studying,reading and then putting that to USEFUL practice,is how you improve.

That's why forums,videos and anything of that nature are useful,it's a teaching tool to improve the right way.

 

[dlognittam]

Yes, that was painfully obvious, wasnt it ? The question was equaly painful, thanks alot.

I appreciate your sediments .

 

[jtbingster]

says the guy with less than 1 year of experience.

i see that you want to be contrarian just to make your words be written online.

re: If you throw wrong it wont hurt?
this is why most of the pro's i know try not to throw sidearm, and all say "i try not to throw sidearm as it will mess up my arm?" - this isnt to say they dont understand the need and necessity of the FH, but choose not to make it their primary method out of darwinism.
and
why all the best sidearm guys i know have elbow problems? (can you throw a disc over 425' FH? i can... can you get a disc to turn over and "s" curve sidearm... i can... i throw (almost) equally BH and FH, and i *advise* anyone that throwing FH isnt good for the arm - this isnt to say "stop" it's just an advsory that doing so, consistently will probably cause pain.

Overstable plastic is "wrongly" preferred? could it be that most people grew up throwing a baseball and learned to (in essence") snap a disc and put torque on it via the repetative motions they learned as a kid?
could it be that the FH throw is natural to most and the sidearm throw is really easy to put torque and snap on?
If you actually read my post, i actually said, "dont adjust your throw to accomodate the disc, find a disc that works for your throw..." and then i went into methods of determining how to pick a disc that works for you, based on the results you are getting.

my words are based on the hundreds of hours i've spent playing, not the few tens of hours i've spent reading this forum. Trial and error beats pure research. My home course is golden gate park... its not a "gimme" park..... i play on a long "very technical" course that requires precision in the 300-375' range on almost every hole and requires both BH and FH skills to be competative. It's always windy and has tons of trees. I live 5 blocks away and i play 4-5 times a week, for up to 48 holes per time. I play for money almost every time i step on the course - I am not the best guy out there, but i can say that my bag tag number never rises above 50 (out of 225+). Unlike many, i do spend my weekends being "disc golf" ambassador teaching lesser skilled guys how to throw, about the course and how to improve.

:wall:

i see that my words are (again) challenged by the "know it alls" of the world and i will recede back into my own world and my own successes as a disc golfer... i guess i dont need to share my wisdom, knowledge and information to those trying to get better.
:doh:

The only problem is that he was right. :\

 

[bergdawg]

The only problem is that he was right. :\

That's debatable. Why aren't understable discs advertised as great sidearm discs?

 

[Triflusal]

That's debatable. Why aren't understable discs advertised as great sidearm discs?

Not going respond to djjerimiahxjsjzncsiij's post, no flaming in technique.

I would say it is silly that certain discs are advertised as FH discs. All discs were made for throwing, and if you are throwing properly, understable discs will fly fine (also depends on how far you throw)

Overstable discs are probably advertised as FH discs because lots of people are torque monkeys

 

[Triflusal]

Also, the Vulcan and such are advertised as great for new players, but we know that isn't true.

 

[Triflusal]

Trial and error beats pure research.

I'm not gonna flame with you, but this made me laugh very very hard.