mike3216
Bogey Member
A lot of things I am seeing now as random may look differently once I play for awhile, I will admit.
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Why So Much OB?
- Thread starter mike3216
- Start date
A lot of things I am seeing now as random may look differently once I play for awhile, I will admit.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
For sure, an OB line for you and me is a different thing for a pro, and a 1,000 rated pro. If you look through the thread bowels you'll find many discussions on course development and par. I'm an advocate that our top events should be on courses that challenge top level pros, but many are quite comfortable with knock them down with ease courses. Their measurement of difficult is based on their own skill set, or the skill sets lower rated players. OB that seems capricious to you and me is a fair challenge for a 1020 rated player.
David Saul's requote of, " a player should look at a hole with a mix of excitement and fear," came from the guy who developed the Gold at Winthrop. Watch USDGC footage. It is the course that defines the use of OB. They work it every year trying to find a mix that challenges without being random. Sometimes it feels like they fail, but I won't deny the effort is good for the sport.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
BTW, cgkdisc is Chuck Kennedy. He knows more about course development and ratings than most of us forget. He is Mr. PDGA ratings. He gets plenty of grief here, but he spends a lot of time thinking about the issue you've raised.
It tells me that the increasingly prevalent attitude that says we should pay the pros more to grow the game is cart-before-horse in its logic. Nobody wants to host the pros because it's a losing proposition. You don't make money, and you get constantly shat on for not meeting all of the expectations.
On the other hand, hosting Am Worlds? Waaay more competition in the bid process.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Not sure this is accurate. I believe the PDGA was planning to run the first MPO/FPO Worlds in 2017 to establish the new format. The 2018 event has already been bid on and established for Vermont. But "Yes", these pro only events are typically not money makers (versus Am events) and may only break-even at this point with PDGA support.
jtencer
Eagle Member
That was a very interesting read and I thought the comments were constructive as well. I especially liked the idea of adding river rocks or other unstable footing to add difficulty to the subsequent shot without a stroke penalty as a way to increase granularity. Of course, that's potentially an expensive modification.
What were the results of the working group? It's been a little over a year. Have any of the experiments happened?
PBokor
Eagle Member
Come to WA and play White River DGC, more river rocks than you could count in a lifetime. Just don't bring white discs...
jtencer
Eagle Member
Is that near Seattle? I'm actually going to be up that way in July.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Yes, we've had at least four tests with a few more pending. Working on the web page that will make it easier for TDs to sign up to run tests and a place to post the results. The tests run so far are connected with the skinny chains (like Marksman), elevated baskets and using re-throws as an option in place of taking an OB penalty.
Just to clarify this for you as a new player, in case other people touching upon it haven't quite done so:
These tournaments aren't put on by the PDGA. They are run by local clubs, who bid for the right to do so. Or, frequently, don't.
So having a great course isn't enough. You need multiple courses that are suitable, or can be made suitable---until this year's changes, you needed a lot of them in a relatively small area. You need a local club willing and able to do the enormous amount of work involved. Not everyone can, and many who can, won't.
Which is why you can look at the Top 10 on this site, or stories of par-70 pro-level courses, and wonder why those aren't being used for our biggest pro events. It's a compromise involving a lot of factors, and it doesn't always result in great natural-hazard-only courses being used.
PBokor
Eagle Member
25 or so miles S/SE of Seattle. Great course, though a couple of WA places might be better. Mostly wooded with a few open 'bomb 'em out' holes. Decent elevation, some tough greens and fairways. July is a great time to play it. PM with details if you want to meet up.
All of those things are attributes to playing disc golf, not watching it. Participation is what has been driving growth. Most of us got into this game to play it, not watch someone else play it.
I am in the minority but I actually enjoy watching Pros tear up a course that the regular Joe has issues with. It just shows how darn good these guys truly are. Watching a Pro throw a 500' drive is great, making a 35-50' putt uphill look routine is fun.
Of course adding difficulty is fine but just enjoy it for what it's worth. The best in the world showing why they are the best.
Of course adding difficulty is fine but just enjoy it for what it's worth. The best in the world showing why they are the best.
We were just discussing this very issue yesterday during our post-round safety break. The youngster of us [25, and he just won a tourney Saturday at a new course in Alabama] says he watches Smashboxx religiously.
Meanwhile the two oldest of us don't care to watch at all. Not only would we rather play, but we're both in the process of designing/installing 3 new courses in the area.
And all our time is voluntary.
Meanwhile the two oldest of us don't care to watch at all. Not only would we rather play, but we're both in the process of designing/installing 3 new courses in the area.
And all our time is voluntary.
Nick Pacific
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2013
- Messages
- 988
One of the most beautiful courses I've ever played
I generally like OB to be very obvious things that make sense. You're in the middle of the creek, OB. You've thrown your disc off the property, OB. You're inside the baseball field, OB. Basically places you either can't physically play from, or places that you're not supposed to go (off the property, sports fields). Maybe other things, like areas that are the fairway for another hole.
Now, there are holes that can be fun, like island greens and the like. i don't usually like them as permanent things, but good for an event here or there.
Now, there are holes that can be fun, like island greens and the like. i don't usually like them as permanent things, but good for an event here or there.
LetsPlayGolf
Par Member
As usual, lots of good talk here. Someone way back on page 1 or 2 brought up the idea of the pros playing courses designed for pros. And someone else rightfully stated there are not very many.
Disc Side of Heaven Championship Course is one that was, I hope, designed to challenge the pros. There will be rope OB, but only along the creek bed to define it better and make it wider. All other OB is property lines around the course. I know the course is still not well known, but come April 13-16 we will see how it stacks up. There is constant elevation change of +/- 60' and trees that have 5' diameter trunks and others with a 120' canopy.
Jonesboro, Arkansas is located close to the very center of the USA so if you are reading this, chances are you are closer than you might think (There is a reason FedEx is located in Memphis, geographical centered). I am very hopeful the course holds its own, but I know the best of the best will show its weaknesses. And who knows, after this year I may go looking for a few miles of rope
If you are close, come play, come watch or come do both. It should be fun!
Disc Side of Heaven Championship Course is one that was, I hope, designed to challenge the pros. There will be rope OB, but only along the creek bed to define it better and make it wider. All other OB is property lines around the course. I know the course is still not well known, but come April 13-16 we will see how it stacks up. There is constant elevation change of +/- 60' and trees that have 5' diameter trunks and others with a 120' canopy.
Jonesboro, Arkansas is located close to the very center of the USA so if you are reading this, chances are you are closer than you might think (There is a reason FedEx is located in Memphis, geographical centered). I am very hopeful the course holds its own, but I know the best of the best will show its weaknesses. And who knows, after this year I may go looking for a few miles of rope
If you are close, come play, come watch or come do both. It should be fun!
That sounds awesome.
I think the issue may be less that there aren't many courses designed for pros, than that not all top-level events are on them. For reasons outlined earlier.
I think the issue may be less that there aren't many courses designed for pros, than that not all top-level events are on them. For reasons outlined earlier.
I'll spell it out for you then.
The course has little to do with where Worlds is played out. It's not like Emporia was chosen due to the quality of their courses.
There are many courses that challenge the pro field in the US. Once again, literally no one wants to host the event.
PBokor
Eagle Member
Agreed. Did you play the summer course, winter course, or both?
