Why the Beato drill is so important.

[HyzerUniBomber]

Felt good today at least - effortless. Now to try and incorporate the x-step at some point...

I've been throwing a few days of the week with a hop and a step, trying to feel out the difference in all the new mechanics & timing. The throws yesterday were easier to control with the step.

I am going to have to spend some time feeling out this right pec shot for upshots. I was blasting 100'ers way long at chain height. Trying to shorten the back swing to slow it down, but I have been pretty happy with a wider touch shot... nice problem to have, but I like having upshots locked down.

 

[fusan]

... My understanding is that you don't want your shoulders pulling your hand around the disc. If you're opening at the hand/pec position, you're definitely going to be pulling around early, losing that distance that you want to pull around....

This has been my question for a looong time.
I have been trying to slow down/stop the shoulders before and gotten the grip lock feel when I do that. Except it didnt flew way right but straight. At the time I was not using the power from the hips but more sliding with them and rotating the shoulder to perpendicular and stop/slow them down.
This gave some power but not any real good distance.

So what you are saying is to rotate the the hips and guide the disc to the right pec (the shoulder will follow to perpendicular allmost by them self) and from there extend the arm/elbow without much shoulderrotation. It sounds like shoulders arent used much at all during the throw. Is that correct?

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

This has been my question for a looong time.
I have been trying to slow down/stop the shoulders before and gotten the grip lock feel when I do that. Except it didnt flew way right but straight. At the time I was not using the power from the hips but more sliding with them and rotating the shoulder to perpendicular and stop/slow them down.
This gave some power but not any real good distance.

So what you are saying is to rotate the the hips and guide the disc to the right pec (the shoulder will follow to perpendicular allmost by them self) and from there extend the arm/elbow without much shoulderrotation. It sounds like shoulders arent used much at all during the throw. Is that correct?

Shoulders are important and easy to get wrong. I have been more wrong than right for the last year.

The explanation that I have been thinking about is that the shoulders are generating the arm's forward momentum. Until the right pec, it's important to not open the shoulders because if you do, your arm will pull your hand forward every time. Hand & shoulder are connected by the bent double pendulum at this point, so any rotation greatly affects your hand.

From right pec to release happens insanely fast... maybe a hundredth of a second. As long as the shoulder rotation is staying out of the way of your hand pulling around the disc, being open to some degree at the end of the release seems to have no problem.

Paul us open to some extent in the last pic I posted, but his shoulder wouldn't impede the acceleration at that point.

 

[Dat putt]

If you watch the old slo-mo shot of Paul, Will, Jerm and Dave you can see that Paul starts opening his shoulders pretty early. His disc comes nowhere close to his right pec and instead seems to come closest to his left shoulder if anything. Not sure why this is, just thought I'd point it out as a contradictory example on when to ideally open the shoulders. (Disc doesn't even seem to be that close to his left pec for that matter!)

 

[Mocheez]

For me, the pace of the shoulders guides the disc into the chest. Then there is a pause of the shoulders as the forearm flings out. Followed by re-engagement with right shoulder rotation and tug of the hand/fingers to fling the disc out.

 

[Dan Ensor]

If you watch the old slo-mo shot of Paul, Will, Jerm and Dave you can see that Paul starts opening his shoulders pretty early. His disc comes nowhere close to his right pec and instead seems to come closest to his left shoulder if anything. Not sure why this is, just thought I'd point it out as a contradictory example on when to ideally open the shoulders. (Disc doesn't even seem to be that close to his left pec for that matter!)

I think you should watch some more. After the disc passes the left shoulder, it comes close to the body, and stays close as the disc goes from the inside of the left shoulder, across the left pec, and to about the left side of the right pec, where he starts his outward pull.

 

[Dat putt]

Maybe it's a trick of the eye or something but it doesn't look like Paul's disc ever gets close to the center of his chest to me. Seems to have a noticeable bit of shoulder rotation by the time it gets to the left pec as well.

It is also pretty noticeable when you compare it to the other players.
Original Vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfjiaZ9DvXQ

 

[sidewinder22]

If you watch the old slo-mo shot of Paul, Will, Jerm and Dave you can see that Paul starts opening his shoulders pretty early. His disc comes nowhere close to his right pec and instead seems to come closest to his left shoulder if anything. Not sure why this is, just thought I'd point it out as a contradictory example on when to ideally open the shoulders. (Disc doesn't even seem to be that close to his left pec for that matter!)

Speed changes things, the important thing is to keep the shoulder closed as the disc comes into the power zone. It's easier to see this a view from behind the tee. The right pec drill is a drill. It's a point of emphasize that the elbow leads.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Yeah, and Paul seems to change how far he drives out the elbow depending on the shot:

I also pulled these from a video shot a couple years ago, and I'm sure he's adjust things over time.

Seems to be a very fine balance of where you want to leverage the disc from, how much distance you need, the angle of release.

 

[Dat putt]

I've watched a lot of Paul and most of the time he really does seem to be noticably open by the time that the disc gets to his left arm, where most people would still be closed and have the disc come across the front of their bicep. It seems like he rounds his shoulders in a bit and I think that may have something to do with it.

 

[Mocheez]

It seems like he rounds his shoulders in a bit and I think that may have something to do with it.

This is the key... it's not so much keeping your shoulders closed, it's keeping your right shoulder closed.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Just a short little video update of my stand-still. It feels so damn comfortable now that I often use it in rounds.

Throwing flat like this, I still have a few degrees of adjustment to make sometimes. It really is learning a completely new release style and point.

My focus has been much more on a finger/knuckle rotation and I've seen much better results.

I measured the last shot with the Truth up on goolge earth and it was 340-350'.

Measured up an Archon last week that hit ~435-440' with a very minimal x-step. Didn't really throw it with much more on it than the Truth in this video, just a bit higher, more nose down and on an anhyzer line.

 

[Jouni]

Looks effortless. I dropped my only step and started from scratch using your videos as a reference, and made my personal records at two courses last Saturday. On Monday I had lost the feeling and I've been strugling since. I lost the timing and I'm probably strong arming a bit too, my drives with Pure and Emvy are much shorter and tend to turn significantly even when I manage to release them on flat or hyzer (Which has never happened with Envy before). Even if I get nice straight flight the angle of release is not towards the target but often to way right of it.

I think some trigger point list would be nice, like what is the order of movements and when do you know to start reaching back, pause the shoulders etc. I feel that if I focus on pushing with my rear leg too much and try to really get a clear follow through I spin around and release to left on anhyzer.

Can you elaborate that finger/knuckle rotation bit more, what is that?

 

[slowplastic]

^Don't think of it as an order of movements, think of if the feel is right. The main thing I think is to start a bit of forward movement/weight transfer just before starting to pull the disc forward. Try to get the disc towards your armpit...if you do it that far forward then the shoulder should stay closed and that "pause" will happen automatically.

From there it's the uncoiling. It's all tempo...weight shift then start to flow the disc forward. When you feel the disc near your right pec/armpit, then start to use your elbow and shoulder and focus on that grip. If one of those things doesn't feel right, focus on the part before it that should naturally flow into that feeling.

Don't focus on the body positions too much...get that feeling right and get it to happen 100% of the time, then start thinking about things that add to power like back foot/leg push, etc.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I have been trying to figure out what (if any) true advantage there is to guiding right pec vs. center pec for a while.

Please forgive me, because I really don't know the proper names for these things, but I think of my arm as a big series of hinges connected by rigid bones.

Upper arm -> elbow hinge
Forearm -> wrist hinge
Hand -> knuckle pinching thumb hinge

The advantage of going right pec is that the weight of the entire arm gets added to the force on the last hinge.

If you start pulling earlier (left pec or center) the whip uncoils before you can take advantage of the full weight of your arm, which is now moving faster (further out front) so you get more force on that very last knuckle leverage.

So I shot some video to try to show what the hell I'm talking about:



And I wanted to point out that I'm hitting these without any big amount of x-step. It's really just taking advantage of leveraging the disc out front.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

And yes, SW22, I know I screwed up my driving foot (toes up)! Nobody's perfect.

 

[ELItheICEman]

Great revelation. I recently had the same one, as chance would have it. The more incidental wrist bend you get while loading the "power zone," the more leverage you have on the disc and bigger your snap. However, the wrist bend must be incidental, or you lose much of the snap.

I'd keep typing, but dinner is on my lap, and I'm not able to balance my laptop anymore.

 

[rhatton1]

"Just lost the F%%%ing disc" Brilliant - just laughed very hard at that

Dude, you're going to start needing a bigger practice field very soon - those poor cars won't know what hit them!

 

[sloppydisc]

Nice thread guys. Best one on DGCR in a long time. Now I just gotta get home so I can actually view the videos! :thmbup:

 

[sidewinder22]

And yes, SW22, I know I screwed up my driving foot (toes up)! Nobody's perfect.

It's ok in some certain situations like downhill tees, long strides, and some anhyzers, your foot rolls to the inside so your ankle/heel still leads the toes.