notroman
* Ace Member *
I had a feeling they'd be beefy. Their PLH is a hair higher than the recent SDS-like pop tops.
(Wiggins on left)
(Wiggins on left)
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[Innova] Wiggins Tour Series Destroyer in ProShop
- Thread starter Anon
- Start date
I work in a machining and fabrication facility, spending a lot of my time doing costing and estimation. I don't know a ton about plastic injection (though we have machined molds for injection shops before) but I do know quite a bit about cost to manufacture.
First thing we need to understand is that the there isn't anyone making their fortune selling disc golf discs. We have to assume that whatever their costs are to operate (purchase a new mold, inject and cure with new processes (and the scrap product they inevitably produce) run their shop, pay their workforce, ship and distribute, market, finance pros, etc.) is higher than you'd think. There's simply too many competing brands in modern disc golf to believe we're somehow being fleeced. There aren't any DG disc makers coming out with premium line discs at $6 a piece. They're all right about the same price. So their margins and costs much be pretty well matured and understood.
The second thing we need to understand is that it's not as easy to produce a super consistent DG disc as you you'd assume. The aerodynamics of what is actually taking place in the flight of a disc are complex. So many things come into play when something is spinning at high RPM, flying through the air, hundreds and hundreds of times during the product's life. And when we're talking about consistency from one run of discs to another, the word we're looking for is not "accuracy", but "repeatability". And as I'm sure natedg could tell you, injection molding is a difficult process to do with high repeatability. It's possible, but there are real costs involved. Don't misunderstand. The costs to improve repeatability aren't only in their cost to replace a 10k mold every couple years. It's in developing a quality control program (a good QC manager will cost you $75k salary easily), manufacturing metrics (the softwares involved are very expensive...getting your ISO cert for example is $80k just in the fees and records), implementing better processes and hiring more qualified personnel, etc. Oh and that new quality team put you over 50 employees, now you have to provide health insurance -- there goes $500,000 annually, etc.
The third thing we need to understand is that disc golfers are generally very cheap, even among avid players. Let's attempt some quick math here:
How many discs can an injection machine (that's not super modern tech) produce in an hour? Let's get aggressive and say they're consistently producing 2 per minute, so 120 discs per hour.
Base plastic discs go for what, $8 a piece? And that's with the store/website taking their $ off the top. So they're probably buying them at, what, $5 a piece?
So every hour, a DG manufacturer is producing enough product to generate $600 in revenue. Add the cost of personnel, overhead, marketing, freight, etc. They're probably making 10% on that $600 gross. So as a DG injection shop, you're charging $60 or less per hour to make discs.
NateDG, what does your company charge per hour to injection mold? I bet it's more than $120 per hour. We charge that for machining on most jobs.
So that means that if a DG manufacturer wanted to produce consistent discs, they have to use manufacturing principles that would literally double their costs. You guys willing to pay $35 for a Champ Teebird? What if every one you got flew exactly like the last one? What about the once-per-year 3-discer player that constitutes the vast majority of their customer base? Hell-to-the-no they're not paying that.
That's what I thought. And that's what the DG molders know. Until the customer's desire for consistency outweighs the cost to achieve it, they're never going to make that jump.
Lastly, keep in mind the point I just illustrated, and remember that the vast majority of the product that Innova/Discraft sells is at MC Sports to a dad and two young kids. It's not like you can implement a high level QA program and only have it affect the costs of the discs you're selling to premium-disc-desiring players. Your costs go up uniformly for all of your products. So if Innova/Discraft wanted to release a premium super consistent line of discs, they have to either jack up the prices for the MC Sports shoppers, or attempt to absorb that increased cost solely through the sale of their premium super consistent discs. Which means you're now paying $70+ per disc.
Golf balls are super consistent. Golf clubs are super consistent. Golf courses are super nicely manicured. But golfers are willing to shell out the dough to experience that. Until disc golfers are ready to do the same, the quality of the equipment (discs) will match the the costs people are willing to pay...which is very little.
First thing we need to understand is that the there isn't anyone making their fortune selling disc golf discs. We have to assume that whatever their costs are to operate (purchase a new mold, inject and cure with new processes (and the scrap product they inevitably produce) run their shop, pay their workforce, ship and distribute, market, finance pros, etc.) is higher than you'd think. There's simply too many competing brands in modern disc golf to believe we're somehow being fleeced. There aren't any DG disc makers coming out with premium line discs at $6 a piece. They're all right about the same price. So their margins and costs much be pretty well matured and understood.
The second thing we need to understand is that it's not as easy to produce a super consistent DG disc as you you'd assume. The aerodynamics of what is actually taking place in the flight of a disc are complex. So many things come into play when something is spinning at high RPM, flying through the air, hundreds and hundreds of times during the product's life. And when we're talking about consistency from one run of discs to another, the word we're looking for is not "accuracy", but "repeatability". And as I'm sure natedg could tell you, injection molding is a difficult process to do with high repeatability. It's possible, but there are real costs involved. Don't misunderstand. The costs to improve repeatability aren't only in their cost to replace a 10k mold every couple years. It's in developing a quality control program (a good QC manager will cost you $75k salary easily), manufacturing metrics (the softwares involved are very expensive...getting your ISO cert for example is $80k just in the fees and records), implementing better processes and hiring more qualified personnel, etc. Oh and that new quality team put you over 50 employees, now you have to provide health insurance -- there goes $500,000 annually, etc.
The third thing we need to understand is that disc golfers are generally very cheap, even among avid players. Let's attempt some quick math here:
How many discs can an injection machine (that's not super modern tech) produce in an hour? Let's get aggressive and say they're consistently producing 2 per minute, so 120 discs per hour.
Base plastic discs go for what, $8 a piece? And that's with the store/website taking their $ off the top. So they're probably buying them at, what, $5 a piece?
So every hour, a DG manufacturer is producing enough product to generate $600 in revenue. Add the cost of personnel, overhead, marketing, freight, etc. They're probably making 10% on that $600 gross. So as a DG injection shop, you're charging $60 or less per hour to make discs.
NateDG, what does your company charge per hour to injection mold? I bet it's more than $120 per hour. We charge that for machining on most jobs.
So that means that if a DG manufacturer wanted to produce consistent discs, they have to use manufacturing principles that would literally double their costs. You guys willing to pay $35 for a Champ Teebird? What if every one you got flew exactly like the last one? What about the once-per-year 3-discer player that constitutes the vast majority of their customer base? Hell-to-the-no they're not paying that.
That's what I thought. And that's what the DG molders know. Until the customer's desire for consistency outweighs the cost to achieve it, they're never going to make that jump.
Lastly, keep in mind the point I just illustrated, and remember that the vast majority of the product that Innova/Discraft sells is at MC Sports to a dad and two young kids. It's not like you can implement a high level QA program and only have it affect the costs of the discs you're selling to premium-disc-desiring players. Your costs go up uniformly for all of your products. So if Innova/Discraft wanted to release a premium super consistent line of discs, they have to either jack up the prices for the MC Sports shoppers, or attempt to absorb that increased cost solely through the sale of their premium super consistent discs. Which means you're now paying $70+ per disc.
Golf balls are super consistent. Golf clubs are super consistent. Golf courses are super nicely manicured. But golfers are willing to shell out the dough to experience that. Until disc golfers are ready to do the same, the quality of the equipment (discs) will match the the costs people are willing to pay...which is very little.
delaveagabeast
Birdie Member
If the colors all looked like that I would totally buy some.. I just seem to get f'd from the proshop even when I request colors~
Romans 5-8
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2013
- Messages
- 855
DannyThunders
Double Eagle Member
Enjoy your wiggins Teedevil's , my wait for real Destroyers continues
Someone is going to have to break the sad news to David that Danny has revealed his discs as forgeries.
Poor kid.
I want to thank everyone that has helped support my tour by purchasing a tour series Destroyer! It means a lot and I couldn't be on the road without your support. I also want to give a shout out to Les White for designing the artwork, he is an awesome guy and an amazing artist!
Romans 5-8
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2013
- Messages
- 855
Is that really you David? If so, what do you think about all this teedevil talk above?
opcorn:
If the colors all looked like that I would totally buy some.. I just seem to get f'd from the proshop even when I request colors~
sick!
Columbia gorge
Par Member
^^^^^ I can vouch for this being Wiggins. I have traded with him in the past on DGCR.
:::LSWT:::
Destroyer 3.0
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 536
thanks david for checking in!
i'm sure one of the moderators will be in touch with you to verify it's really you - then you get a snazzy icon thing attatched to your name, or something to that effect,
:::LSWT:::
Destroyer 3.0
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 536
three runs so far, all sellouts! :thmbup:
:::LSWT:::
Destroyer 3.0
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 536
spiffy.
Romans 5-8
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2013
- Messages
- 855
That one looks nice^^^^^^ everyone on FB is still calling these things vulcan topped.....getting really annoying.
Swisher Streets
Double Eagle Member
Mine is definitely not Vulcan topped.
natedg1976
Double Eagle Member
Thank the lord, someone understands. Our company charges bare min. 200 an hour to mold. We also charge set-up and change-over fees.
Our customers charge upwards of 3-500 dolaars a piece for finished product. These are scientifically molded medical devices.
As much as I hate to say it MVP is about the most consistent disc molding company out there and even they have had their screw ups.
I am going to get one of the Wiggins discs just to photo it next to a Teedevil and a Vulcan to show the idiots the difference.
