WORLD FIASCO

[biscoe]

Third. Perhaps it's time that the Majors are taken away from individual TDs and placed more under the control of the PDGA director. This streamlines the events under one canopy and keeps mistakes like those seen on the National Tour from happening in the future.

Horrible idea- the ORG isn't capable of doing it. At least the way it is now a sizable portion of the events are competently run.

 

[Loomis]

Horrible idea- the ORG isn't capable of doing it. At least the way it is now a sizable portion of the events are competently run.

The ORG had better learn pretty quickly how to do it then. And a sizable portion of the events is not all of the events. It needs to be all of the events.

 

[AndyJB]

I love how the fault always falls on the sponsors....what are they supposed to do? They too would have to sit in front of a computer the minute registration opened up just like the other 100's of golfers and register. The issue is this was a popular worlds that had limits and not everyone was aware until it was too late. There are a lot of good players that got shut out, at least two world champions I know of. The last I heard, Jonny Sias (multiple world titles) and Mike Raley were both on the list. They just didn't expect things to fill up in less than 24 hrs. Is that their fault or their sponsors fault, or the World's staff? It is what it is and it sucks. I agree with others that their needs to be a tiered system to start and then open it up. I love MJ and want to see him play as much as everyone else, but it's hardly Discraft's fault for lack of support. I guess he should have been sitting in front of his computer the minute things opened up and registered just like everyone else. As someone who has been supported by Discraft for years, I can tell you that your claims are BS. I guess it depends on what you are expecting them to do for you?

Carry on........

I don't expect Discraft to anything for me. I suck at disc golf.

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

45 masters aged ladies have earned points in pdga events this year- 8 spots were reserved for them at worlds- this is 17.7%

720 masters aged men have earned points in pdga events this year- 72 spots were reserved for them at worlds- this is 10%.

how is FPM underserved?


i do agree that the method for registration needs to move to a tiered system of some sort, i also wouldn't mind seeing separate worlds for age protected divisions. we have outgrown the idea of worlds being the annual disc golf convention for everyone.

respond to this Loomis

 

[JC17393]

I'm convinced now that Loomis doesn't understand what "logistics" means.

As for the suggestion that the PDGA comp the players that they "failed"...bull ****. The PDGA didn't fail these players. The players failed themselves. But why stop at them? Why not just comp every member who didn't get in to Worlds? I didn't get in, I want free membership next year. Granted, I didn't earn enough points to qualify so I wasn't invited, but hell, I still want free membership. Gimmegimmegimme.

I get that the system needs tweaking. I'm not against instituting changes across the board. But the idea that how things were done this year, which weren't any different than past years, is somehow to blame for players not getting into Worlds is lunacy. NOTHING was sprung on the players out of the blue here. The limited number of places in the event sold out. Same as happens at tournaments across the country and probably across the globe. Do the shut out players in those cases get to demand some kind of recompense from the TD for their disappointment?

Because let's face it, the only trauma inflicted here is some people don't get to play Worlds. Oh, the humanity. They haven't incurred any extra expenses not getting in, have they? So I don't see why they need to be compensated monetarily (via free membership next year).

 

[Loomis]

respond to this Loomis

Simple: If more than 8 women want to play at Worlds, then they should be allowed to play. That's pretty simple, right? Is it crazy to say let in 12 more women? This isn't a stats game. Don't tell me you're missing a course. If you're missing a course, build one or use another course in the area. The Portland area has many great courses and not all of them are being used. Hell, build a temp hole or two out at Milo. Isn't that how it works there anyway?

If 72 players want to play Masters. That's a pretty sizable field. If they could fit another twenty in there, I bet that would make twenty more PDGA fee paying people happy. And a good number of those Masters players traditionally play OPEN so their dance across those lines is tricky to read in regards to your numbers. Climo, BS, Arthur, Brown, Baldwin, Convers, McCray. They all play OPEN. Or should be.

The same is true of the Masters Women WHO for the most part, play OPEN at smaller events but in this case, it's not because they feel they can be competitive (though it may be true for Des and Barrett) but because you rarely see a large field at a smaller event. There aren't that many opportunities for Masters Women to play in Masters groups. So when they can, they love it. They look forward to it. And Worlds is one of their few opportunities. It keeps these women coming out to events and supporting smaller tournaments. This year, more than 8 women wanted to play and that would have been wonderful to see, instead, because we marginalize them as cash donors who don't count, we gave them 8 places when it should be open to more.

If we are going to do this only by the numbers then disc golf should shut down. The problem with praying at the altar of numbers and only sticking to formulas is that it locks out the potential for variable. This is a year when the Worlds got it wrong and the numbers failed. That's why you don't go by the numbers.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I sorta get this, but this was an issue already for 2011 World's and even I knew about the issue with BSF filling in lightning-fast time. The PDGA should have know this was going to be an issue the minute they announced the location. That they chose to do nothing is on them; anybody with just a little bit of vision could have predicted what was going to happen and taken some proactive steps.

It eventually filled up in 2011 but it wasn't as fast. The real issue this year was the speed it happened that kept out some World Champs. The capacity wouldn't have been any higher than it is nor the division sizes much different if registration occurred at the same pace as 2011. Note that the Am Worlds filled even faster than Pro Worlds this year and it's not on the west coast.

There are 72 players per course with two rounds per day per course and everyone gets six rounds in the prelims over the four days. That's going to remain a set format no matter how big the sport gets. The only factor that can increase event capacity is whether there are more quality courses that can be used at venue than another and that the local staff wishes to manage. There are 6 for pros and 8 for ams this year which matches the 14 used for Pro-Am Worlds in Charlotte, the largest field ever.

 

[Loomis]

I'm convinced now that Loomis doesn't understand what "logistics" means.

As for the suggestion that the PDGA comp the players that they "failed"...bull ****. The PDGA didn't fail these players. The players failed themselves. But why stop at them? Why not just comp every member who didn't get in to Worlds? I didn't get in, I want free membership next year. Granted, I didn't earn enough points to qualify so I wasn't invited, but hell, I still want free membership. Gimmegimmegimme.

I get that the system needs tweaking. I'm not against instituting changes across the board. But the idea that how things were done this year, which weren't any different than past years, is somehow to blame for players not getting into Worlds is lunacy. NOTHING was sprung on the players out of the blue here. The limited number of places in the event sold out. Same as happens at tournaments across the country and probably across the globe. Do the shut out players in those cases get to demand some kind of recompense from the TD for their disappointment?

Because let's face it, the only trauma inflicted here is some people don't get to play Worlds. Oh, the humanity. They haven't incurred any extra expenses not getting in, have they? So I don't see why they need to be compensated monetarily (via free membership next year).

You assume incorrectly that I don't get it. What you mean to say is that "Loomis doesn't agree with me and I don't agree with Loomis." I understand the numbers BS completely and don't feel it should be the determining factor for growing our sport as the saying goes.

Outside of that, your logic doesn't follow in the case I presented about what the PDGA can do to make up for this slight. You've trivialized it down to cheap banter and you've insulted those who feel marginalized. And that is pretty classy of you.

Now if you have an issue, make it known, otherwise, demeaning someone's complaint isn't going to do much to assuage the situation.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind posting your name and number so I can give it out to those people who disagree with you.

 

[Jukeshoe]

When you old folk are done arguing can we...like, go throw some frisbees in the woods....and have fun....n stuff? :\

 

[The Hammer]

45 masters aged ladies have earned points in pdga events this year- 8 spots were reserved for them at worlds- this is 17.7%

720 masters aged men have earned points in pdga events this year- 72 spots were reserved for them at worlds- this is 10%.

how is FPM underserved?


i do agree that the method for registration needs to move to a tiered system of some sort, i also wouldn't mind seeing separate worlds for age protected divisions. we have outgrown the idea of worlds being the annual disc golf convention for everyone.

Based on this, your argument of the Masters Women being marginalized is unfounded. If anything, they were overly accommodated for. The nice thing about numbers is that they don't lie.

 

[jeverett]

I understand the numbers BS completely and don't feel it should be the determining factor for growing our sport as the saying goes.

Hi Loomis,

I really do wish you'd speak more to the numbers, though. I see 72 spots, and giving 10 more to FPM means taking 10 away from some other division (that is filled too). But you aren't talking about that math, and I don't understand why not.

Sure, a TD might 'fudge' things a little, and add an extra player per card, but with this level of demand very quickly it simply isn't possible to increase pool sizes any more.

How exactly do you propose to add those 10 FPM players, plus the hundreds of MPO players that still want in, plus all of the players that want into all of the other divisions too?

 

[Mando]

When you old folk are done arguing can we...like, go throw some frisbees in the woods....and have fun....n stuff? :\

And not keep score ?

 

[dbanderson]

You assume incorrectly that I don't get it. What you mean to say is that "Loomis doesn't agree with me and I don't agree with Loomis." I understand the numbers BS completely and don't feel it should be the determining factor for growing our sport as the saying goes.

Outside of that, your logic doesn't follow in the case I presented about what the PDGA can do to make up for this slight. You've trivialized it down to cheap banter and you've insulted those who feel marginalized. And that is pretty classy of you.

Now if you have an issue, make it known, otherwise, demeaning someone's complaint isn't going to do much to assuage the situation.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind posting your name and number so I can give it out to those people who disagree with you.

JC is right, you really don't get it.

 

[JC17393]

Why don't the "trivialized" speak for themselves? This forum is open for anyone to sign up and post, is it not? My screen name here is my initials and PDGA#. I'm not hard to find.

And I'm not demeaning your point. I'm trying to understand it. All I'm reading though, is butt hurt whining without any real solution that makes sense. Your solution has been to suggest a free-for-all of registration allowing anyone in who wants to play, but even with that there are logistics involved in getting that event off the ground that you have not addressed. Logistics = organization. Events need structure or they fall apart. It is far far far FAR easier to create the structure then fill it in with participants than the other way around, which is what you seem to be suggesting. You seem to want to find all the players willing to play, then go about finding the courses, working out a schedule, and finding the staff to make it happen. Good luck getting that to work.

Also, instead of engaging in actual conversation, you're now resorting to playing the victim card (using words like trivialized and marginalized as if these players didn't have some power in this situation). You're arguing the method of the discussion instead of arguing anything of substance. Say something substantive. Lay out a detailed plan that will blow the doors off anything the PDGA has been doing for the last 10-20-30 years. Say something other than "it's broken, they have to fix it". Offer a way to fix it.

 

[Matt B.]

Hi Loomis,

I really do wish you'd speak more to the numbers, though. I see 72 spots, and giving 10 more to FPM means taking 10 away from some other division (that is filled too). But you aren't talking about that math, and I don't understand why not.

Sure, a TD might 'fudge' things a little, and add an extra player per card, but with this level of demand very quickly it simply isn't possible to increase pool sizes any more.

How exactly do you propose to add those 10 FPM players, plus the hundreds of MPO players that still want in, plus all of the players that want into all of the other divisions too?

Dude, if they want to play, let them in. Just let them in, there ain't no logistics about it, just let them in. No one should have to fill out a waitlist entry, that's crap! Just let them play.

 

[Moonshine]

There are paid employees working for the PDGA. Paid very well, I might point out. And the organization has money.

Just in case anyone ever cares to look. Here is the latest Form 990 filed by the PDGA. As you can see, no board members are paid. Employee salaries are equal to close to 400,000 for the year 2012.

Nothing. It's a board that only gets together occasionally (usually by video conference or emails) so there is rarely a chance for a quick response.

There are employees that answer the phone. It's not hard to talk to someone at the PDGA. I've done it...

 

[Anon]

It eventually filled up in 2011 but it wasn't as fast. The real issue this year was the speed it happened that kept out some World Champs.

The rest of this nonsensical discussion aside...

I know World's isn't an invitational but shouldn't previous World Champs get some sort of 'lifetime' automatic registration? Similar to The Masters in golf.

 

[HiFi]

Yeah I guess I'm not seeing the point of having an 8 person division at the "World" championship. Fish or cut bait. Accommodate for a real division or just get rid of it if it's that much of an afterthought.

 

[Cgkdisc]

The rest of this nonsensical discussion aside...

I know World's isn't an invitational but shouldn't previous World Champs get some sort of 'lifetime' automatic registration? Similar to The Masters in golf.

I agree and would like to see some automatic qualifiers that have first shot to register for maybe a week before invitees or they are pre-registered and have up to a month to pay up if they plan to play. Then, their spots are released if they're not coming.

With regard to the small divisions, you going to kick Steady Ed from Worlds You're essentially kicking him out when you consider eliminating the smaller older or younger divisions. He trail-blazed each of the older age divisions until he passed in 2002. Having the older divisions supports the idea that we're a lifetime support where players can aspire to world class achievements.

 

[Chines]

i think you should have to accumulate a certain amount of points in open to play in an event as big as worlds. it's kind of a joke that MJ is on the wait list while some 920 guy can be playing.

this is another place where should take a page from golf. average golfers aren't playing in the us open. to get there you had to do well on tour or go through insane qualifying.

Something similar to this is the answer. I would say if you win a national tour event then you are in for the worlds. Then the remaining spots should be filled by points accumulated throughout the rest of the year. You have to qualify to play. This isn't some backwoods disc golf tournament. This is the Worlds.