2017 Next Generation Disc Golf Top Prize: Car

[loki the trickster]

Okay Lazer,

Brass tacks. . What Latitude is doing is offering a pro payout to Am players. They're using that payout to attract said am players, while essentially excluding pro players who would easily win the payout.

Math - if a pro player needs a new $25,000 car, with taxes and interest let's call it $40,000, how many events does he have to play and win at $3,000 per event? That is the payout here, the equivalent of $40,000. Even if you sell your $25,000 car for $20,000, you've got the richest pro payout in history (to my knowledge).

Why is Latitude doing this? They are trying to hook in new customers and move their product in an ace race type of event with an added qualified event scenario. If Latitude did the right thing and let everyone participate in their tour, well a couple of pros would step in and kick everyone's donkey and take la prize. Can't have that so, none you real pros are allowed, just you low rated pros who might regret having gone pro. I don't need to explain why highly rated pros would be bad for getting ams to think they might win said car do I?

Why no sanctioning? Well, the PDGA isn't interested in Latitude's marketing strategy. They are interested in equity, ams playing ams and pros playing pros. This event breaks the rules by hiding a monetary payout as a caaaarrrrrr.

As I started with, it's great capitalism. Hype a big prize to bring in lots of players and move $500,000 worth of plastic. But in the end, what makes an am an am is the non money thing. If I'm a high rated pro, well I'm annoyed. If I'm looking for something that is going to grow the sport, I'm disappointed. If I'm a Latitude investor, awesome idea!

I understand that ams, some ams, feel neglected. But that isn't handled by offering them what amounts to a pro payout. An am tour without car does that.

This is not adding to your post

I agree 100% with this. Its protecting amateurs or if you will... giving pros that dont want to play against real pros a tournament to get a big reward for not bumping up and playing where they should be. Maybe i am wrong for thinking that way.

Its not my money... but any Lat64 sponsored professional i hope is making a huge stink about this.

 

[Old Dog]

I dont think giving away a new car is good. It sounds good and is good press and it will build hype. But in the end its not a good idea givin that you have to pay for taxes licensing and all that shenanigans.

Someone wants to give me a brand new car I'll gladly pay the tax, tags and registration fees. And if I didn't like the particular car they were giving away I could always sell it or trade it toward something else.

 

[Consult20]

The series was run last year on a much smaller scale, here is the description on the 2016 version in case anyone missed it:

Next Generation Tour 2016
January 16, 2016 - October 21, 2016

About this series

The next Generation tour is a 12 event point series where the top prize is a free plane ticket to Europe to play disc golf in 2017 as well as the entry fee to the event selected by the winner. You will need to compete in 4 of the twelve events to qualify for the overall series. The tour will also be giving away more unique prizes such as entry fees to large events, PDGA memberships and other surprises. Feldberg will be working with companies in an effort to offer sponsorships to the overall top finishers in the series.

So they're expanding it this year with more events, more & better prizes, etc. I really don't see how this can be viewed as anything but positive for the sport overall.

 

[DavidSauls]

So they're expanding it this year with more events, more & better prizes, etc. I really don't see how this can be viewed as anything but positive for the sport overall.

They're certainly attempting more than most of us here.

 

[lyleoross]

Probably should stop giving out cars on Wheel of Fortune to those amateur wordsmiths then.

Good, it doesn't beat your car = golf cart post though. That one was funny and on topic. A disc golf cart is an appropriate payout for an am, a car, not so much unless everyone has a chance at it. That is, a random draw.

 

[discguy42]

Good, it doesn't beat your car = golf cart post though. That one was funny and on topic. A disc golf cart is an appropriate payout for an am, a car, not so much unless everyone has a chance at it. That is, a random draw.

Why does everyone not have a chance? Enter the event, be in the top 12, move on, then to a regional, then the top 12 finishers of each of the regionals battle it out in the finals for the grand prize...not that random to me.

 

[lyleoross]

The series was run last year on a much smaller scale, here is the description on the 2016 version in case anyone missed it:

Next Generation Tour 2016
January 16, 2016 - October 21, 2016

About this series

The next Generation tour is a 12 event point series where the top prize is a free plane ticket to Europe to play disc golf in 2017 as well as the entry fee to the event selected by the winner. You will need to compete in 4 of the twelve events to qualify for the overall series. The tour will also be giving away more unique prizes such as entry fees to large events, PDGA memberships and other surprises. Feldberg will be working with companies in an effort to offer sponsorships to the overall top finishers in the series.

So they're expanding it this year with more events, more & better prizes, etc. I really don't see how this can be viewed as anything but positive for the sport overall.

I'd agree, if they removed the car. But then they'd have to explain again why they aren't working with the PDGA? Yes I know, those greedy PDGA guys charge a 5% fee for sanctioned events, and they use it supporting pro payout, and marketing and in communications and support of the sport, but still....

 

[lyleoross]

Why does everyone not have a chance? Enter the event, be in the top 12, move on, then to a regional, then the top 12 finishers of each of the regionals battle it out in the finals for the grand prize...not that random to me.

The chance is based on skill, not on a random drawing. There are at least two items to consider and probably more. First, pros excluded from the events have zero chance. Second, lesser skilled players have a significantly less chance than higher. You've turned it into a competition for a pro level payout. That is the purview of pros, not ams. And it isn't a few guys having a bet. It has national scope with over 100 events. It's frankly, a skilled attempt to get around the pro am separation but excludes pros.

You can give a car to ams, but it can't be based on skill. That means a random draw or similar.

 

[Consult20]

I'd agree, if they removed the car. But then they'd have to explain again why they aren't working with the PDGA? Yes I know, those greedy PDGA guys charge a 5% fee for sanctioned events, and they use it supporting pro payout, and marketing and in communications and support of the sport, but still....

I think you're missing the big picture point of this series, and the car is just great marketing. I seriously doubt the PDGA has any issue with this at all, in fact I'd guess they're all for it. Throw the true ams a nice bone and bring out more players who may not have participated otherwise. Everything doesn't have to be about the pros.

 

[discguy42]

The chance is based on skill, not on a random drawing. There are at least two items to consider and probably more. First, pros excluded from the events have zero chance. Second, lesser skilled players have a significantly less chance than higher. You've turned it into a competition for a pro level payout. That is the purview of pros, not ams. And it isn't a few guys having a bet. It has national scope with over 100 events. It's frankly, a skilled attempt to get around the pro am separation but excludes pros.

You can give a car to ams, but it can't be based on skill. That means a random draw or similar.

Who cares about the pros...this event is not meant for them. Why is this a big deal?

So, if you are a lesser player and cant win that is bad? Sounds like you have got too many participation awards or something along the way...:\.

I would have no chance in hell to win anything at one of these events, but I still want to play in one for some reason. I would just be there to bag a sweet players pack!

 

[lyleoross]

I think you're missing the big picture point of this series, and the car is just great marketing. I seriously doubt the PDGA has any issue with this at all, in fact I'd guess they're all for it. Throw the true ams a nice bone and bring out more players who may not have participated otherwise. Everything doesn't have to be about the pros.

Then why not have the PDGA sanction the events? Easy way to prove me wrong.

 

[lyleoross]

No one cares about the pros, or at least no one cares about the high rated pros. This is a marketing attempt to pull ams to a product based on a pro payout. That makes at least the winner, no longer an am. Of course that may be the reason why they are including low rated pros? They assume one will win. So, they'll pull in ams who think they have a shot, but the big prize goes to a pro who didn't have to compete against a pro that would have smacked him down, and Latitude gets the larger wishful thinking pool and greater exposure.

I like it. Can I send a copy to the conspiracy theory thread?

 

[Consult20]

Then why not have the PDGA sanction the events? Easy way to prove me wrong.

The better question is, why sanction the events?

 

[DanJon]

Probably should stop giving out cars on Wheel of Fortune to those amateur wordsmiths then.

I think Latitude missed a great opportunity here.

They should have offered the choice between a car and a mystery box.

I mean a car is a car, but a mystery box could be anything.

It could even be a car!

 

[JC17393]

Then why not have the PDGA sanction the events? Easy way to prove me wrong.

Did you miss the part where sanctioning with the PDGA would open up the requirement of allowing pros to play (provided they're rated below 970), and they don't want pros playing? They don't want anyone who has accepted cash in a pro division. Not just in PDGA events, but any other organized regional series events that aren't necessarily PDGA sanctioned (e.g. Southern Nationals, NEFA, etc).

I'm as big a proponent of the PDGA as it gets, but even I can understand that not everything has to be fit under the PDGA umbrella. And that things that don't fall directly under the PDGA umbrella aren't automatically things the PDGA would/should refuse to support given the opportunity.

 

[bnbanbury]

Okay Lazer,

Brass tacks. . What Latitude is doing is offering a pro payout to Am players. They're using that payout to attract said am players, while essentially excluding pro players who would easily win the payout.

Math - if a pro player needs a new $25,000 car, with taxes and interest let's call it $40,000, how many events does he have to play and win at $3,000 per event? That is the payout here, the equivalent of $40,000. Even if you sell your $25,000 car for $20,000, you've got the richest pro payout in history (to my knowledge).

Why is Latitude doing this? They are trying to hook in new customers and move their product in an ace race type of event with an added qualified event scenario. If Latitude did the right thing and let everyone participate in their tour, well a couple of pros would step in and kick everyone's donkey and take la prize. Can't have that so, none you real pros are allowed, just you low rated pros who might regret having gone pro. I don't need to explain why highly rated pros would be bad for getting ams to think they might win said car do I?

Why no sanctioning? Well, the PDGA isn't interested in Latitude's marketing strategy. They are interested in equity, ams playing ams and pros playing pros. This event breaks the rules by hiding a monetary payout as a caaaarrrrrr.

As I started with, it's great capitalism. Hype a big prize to bring in lots of players and move $500,000 worth of plastic. But in the end, what makes an am an am is the non money thing. If I'm a high rated pro, well I'm annoyed. If I'm looking for something that is going to grow the sport, I'm disappointed. If I'm a Latitude investor, awesome idea!

I understand that ams, some ams, feel neglected. But that isn't handled by offering them what amounts to a pro payout. An am tour without car does that.

I understand your point about the "pro" level payout for an amateur event and why it may be an issue for the 2nd tier pros who are scraping out a living and would love to win a new car. What I am not understanding is the comments in several posts about low rated pros stepping in and winning this event.

The way the criteria for participation was explained, anyone who has taken cash in southern nationals or the PDDA will not be able to participate. It has nothing to do with the 970 ratings cap that the PDGA utilizes. By not sanctioning with the PDGA it seems like they will be able to make this series more for true amateurs than any PDGA event with the exception of am majors.

I also don't agree that this would be disappointing from the perspective of growing the sport. I think that investing in amateurs has always been the best way to grow the sport and 119 additional am tournaments is a pretty amazing undertaking.

 

[biscoe]

I am all for the exclusion of cashing pros regardless of rating from am events- wish the PDGA would go back to that model. Very few of the players who compete in this thing are doing so "to win the car". Hopefully the structure is prepared for a 16 year old to win such a huge prize since that seems to be the way major am competitions are trending. Does giving away a car stretch the concept of amateurism in the wrong direction? Hell yes it does imo.

This does not strike me however as a power play with the PDGA like Dodge's little stunt last fall.

 

[DavidSauls]

Does giving away a car stretch the concept of amateurism in the wrong direction? Hell yes it does imo.

Doesn't bother me, though it strikes me a little odd that, at the front end, they're being rather strident on the amateurism, and on the back end, making the biggest payout to an amateur we've seen.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Ams make $. Most pros cost $. Select handful bring an ROI but hello hello hello?

 

[Discslinger12]

Thanks for the kind words folks. We're looking forward to providing a new experience for our amateur competitors. There's a lot to share over the coming weeks, btw no-one has correctly guessed the car yet...... Thank you JC17393 for your comments – one of our goals was to work with the top organizers and TDs around the country.

We wanted to take a moment to provide some perspective on why we chose not to sanction with the PDGA. Dave and Pat are past PDGA board members, Pat's a lifetime eagle member, the regional coordinators and TDs are all experienced PDGA volunteers – we are all very pro-PDGA. Collectively we have volunteered thousands hours to the organization and many more to the sport in general. This effort changes none of that for us, in fact what we're doing embodies and compliments the mission and vision of the organization. Anyone exploring new ideas in the sport could not be doing so with the foundation the PDGA has built year over year. We share nothing but pride and sweat in the organizations' past, current and ongoing success.

We did not take the decision lightly. In the end, economics and efficiency won out.

First, it's worth noting the scale, the PDGA sanctioned approximately 2700 tournaments last year and projects 20% growth for 2017 or 3,240 tournaments next year. We are running 118 – even if somehow we had a direct 1-to-1 impact, the PDGA will still sanction 3,122 tournaments. Based on past growth rates, however, it's hard to imagine the NG tour series having any impact on the PDGA's tournament numbers.

If we were to sanction the qualifiers as c-tiers, regionals as b-tiers and the national championship as an a-tier and we were fortunate enough to sell out the events – the PDGA would be paid via player fees, sanctioning fees, extra insurance fees and disc golf scene registration processing fees about $34K. We're using disc golf scene for our registration (arguably the best!), the PDGA will earn about $10K on the DGS fees in any case. The remaining $24K covers the cost of the car and contributes to the insurance policy already purchased to fully cover the events.


Car or sanctioning? We chose car.


What we are doing is nothing new or novel. A car was given away in 1974. The qualifier/regional/national tournament structure is well known and used in many sports, including Ultimate. To pull it off, we needed to be create it from the ground up. With the volume of qualifiers it was important we started with a clean sheet of paper and designed simple, robust, clear, repeatable processes. This included simplifying the administrative work asked of our TDs, for example, when they upload the scores at the end of a qualifier there are no further reporting requirements or payments due. In our case, the idea of coordinating the completion of 118 PDGA tournament reports with 118 points of distributed responsibility added an additional layers of administration on the team and TDs at a time when we have to simplify to be successful.


If we prove the model works next year, we will be in a much better position to align with the PDGA... we look forward to doing so and we're having conversations with them now.


Will it all work?

We have a great team assembled and we're all going to give it our best shot to find out.

We hope you will too.

On behalf of the entire Next Generation team, thanks again and stay tuned,

Dave, Synthya and Pat