300’ barrier

[Mocheez]

THIS!!! This is what I've been needing to hear about since day 1. This sounds exactly right and how to throw far without strong arming. Now if I can just figure out how to do it, haha Thank you so much for this explanation. I haven't read ANYTHING like this the entire time I've been playing and studying the throw, and yet it might be the single most important thing to understand in order to unlock the distance with ease! :clap:

Here is a follow up post from the same person (JHern) and a link to the thread...
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/...&t=16139&sid=ada2e0428bb08bcfb9d6a272cab0af3e

I've been trying to find an image or something that would illustrate this, but no luck. Here is a fictional story to illustrate what I had in mind: Imagine somebody badly broke their shoulder joint somehow, on their throwing arm. To heal it properly, the doctor decided to immobilize the shoulder by making a plaster cast which keeps the elbow held out to the side. The plaster cast covers the entire chest and shoulders front and back (kind of like the shoulder pad rig worn by football players, but plaster), and the cast also extends down the upper arm all the way to the elbow. The person is then forced to walk around with their elbow pointed out sideways. They can't move their elbow up, down, forward, backwards, or anywhere at all. It is held firm by the one-piece cast that is rigidly attached to their upper torso. Their lower arm and hand hangs down from the elbow, and is free to move about the elbow joint.

OK, got that picture? Now, here is my claim: this person could throw a disc farther than 300' fairly easily. And here's why: all they have to do is swivel their hips back, and with power starting from the ground up through firmly planted legs, they rotate their hips/torso/shoulders back open quickly, and their lower arm will whip around and zoom forward very fast. Put a disc in their hand and have them release it when the arm is near full extension, and that disc will be flying very quickly. It will be moving much more quickly than they could have achieved by keeping their body fixed and trying to whip their arm forward with their triceps strength alone. This is the whip.

BUT DON'T TRY THIS CAST AT HOME! Unfortunately, this person will only get to throw the disc like this once, because they'll break their elbow joint backwards since the cast is fixed in place and the arm can't follow through. The upper arm's momentum will carry through and the biceps will be unable to arrest the motion. This would be extremely painful.

What you want to do is pretend as if you had this cast on, but that the cast suddenly disappeared just after the disc leaves your hand, and then your arm can relax and follow through so that you don't, in fact, break your elbow backwards. But just a split second before the disc rips out, you should still try to stop your arm from swinging open with all your might as if it would break if you failed to stop it. Grip and clamp down as hard as you possibly can on the disc with all your might during this moment, and feel the disc fling off your fingers with a rapid spin.

Does all that make sense?

 

[sidewinder22]

When you do this in slow motion you can't tilt forward over the toes because you will be off balance. Stand upright in neutral joint alignment so you could stand on the leg effortless forever.

In the backswing you will notice your rear hip never turns back behind the ankle a la Hogan Power Move/Butt Wipe/Hip Depth. You still have a lot of weight pressure on your front toes as your rear leg is resisting shifting balance to the back leg and not allowing the hip to turn.

Shifting back forward to the front leg you might feel tilted backwards slightly being stacked upright on the front leg.

 

[sidewinder22]

THIS!!! This is what I've been needing to hear about since day 1. This sounds exactly right and how to throw far without strong arming. Now if I can just figure out how to do it, haha Thank you so much for this explanation. I haven't read ANYTHING like this the entire time I've been playing and studying the throw, and yet it might be the single most important thing to understand in order to unlock the distance with ease! :clap:

That is basically what I'm demonstrating in my Stop Hugging Yourself/Rounding and Reciprocating Dingle Arm video.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133733

 

[Jet57]

Mannnnnn I know I've been slacking when I'm bumped from page 1 :\

I am still leaving a massive amount of mph somewhere because although I'm hitting pretty consistent lines, I'm not seeing 350'+ distance.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your left arm/elbow out is killing your weightshift and rotational speed/balance on front leg, and stopping your follow thru/deceleration of right arm/shoulder short.

Bring left elbow back to front linearly into the body, not rotationally around the body. Keep your left palm facing your body like holding a cup/beverage, your palm is facing out pouring the beverage out in the backswing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=9m42s

And drag your rear foot forward with the elbow to get upright on front leg.

 

[slowplastic]

Looks to me like you are pushing the torso/sternum with the rear leg rather than really landing closed with your butt/lower spine moved from the left leg and landing on the right leg before swinging. Because your rear foot is on the ground late, and the rear knee/femur stay static in space during the swing.

In the behind view your plant leg stride looks to slightly arc from left to right like ( shape, which I believe means that you are opening up or losing hip load as you are striding forward. Rather than more of a ) feel over your left foot and under your body which would make you rotate/load internally naturally as you are striding.

 

[Jet57]

Good stuff, thanks fellas. I see what you're both saying, SPI have some more time to get some work in this evening, so I'll be back.

 

[Jet57]

Posting without much review. Just goofing around in the garage while the baby naps. Goal is obviously not pushing my body into rotation.

 

[slowplastic]

Back is super hunched, when you land you'd just fold over chest to front knee. I'm guessing if camera was behind teepad perspective, your butt would be behind your plant heel and chest would be over foot. Likely not enough knee bend so that you can have your body over your foot more centered. You then swing down/forward through to your left, the rear leg doesn't counterweight you.

Should feel more upright on the plant leg balanced when you land. Then as you swing you should feel that your chest opens forward and upward almost, not down and squished. If the chest opens forward more then hopefully you'll feel the rear leg will want to counterweight it away from you a bit. By chest opening I'm not just meaning rotating targetward, but your arms kind of opening outward so your chest feels like it sticks forward too.

 

[Jet57]

SP you're the man. Read your notes a couple times, and this is my attempt at applying. Quick glance shows I'm more upright, with some rear leg counter. But hips don't look/feel right.

 

[deyo7]

SP you're the man. Read your notes a couple times, and this is my attempt at applying. Quick glance shows I'm more upright, with some rear leg counter. But hips don't look/feel right.

Hey Jet, just commenting because I know this issue well, and something to maybe try.
First, looks better more upright. Maybe try to drop the water bottle (I know, don't spill the beverage thing) and put hand at your left hip or even slightly behind it and almost think about pushing it forward and also think about using legs more, which probably goes back to slows comment above. I think getting the off arm in tighter and more umph from your legs (I know it's probably hard from that position your in... think about it everting rear leg to right side of teepad if it helps) will get you better on top of the front leg and counterbalance better. At least might be worth trying. Good luck

 

[slowplastic]

Cool, that's an improvement and I think I know what's going on. You are transitioning backswing to forward swing at the same tempo as if you were on flat ground. This elevated rear foot position is a drill, so the tempo will be different; there will be a pause after you drop. Instead you are transitioning forward but your weight hasn't landed yet.

So you can either pendulum back and forward before the swing as you are doing, or you can start up on the left leg 100%, then backswing while already up there. At the top of the backswing or as you approach the top of the backswing you will let yourself drop down to the plant leg. This is where there will be a much bigger delay than normal. You'll have to hold the top of the backswing position yourself for a bit longer, to give yourself the time to drop that extra couple of inches before catching your weight. Then once you have landed in balance on the front leg, you can THEN start the rotation and forward movement.

The purpose of this drill is to teach you to set up your balance as you land on the front side, which I think you just corrected a lot between the videos. Now you have to wait until after you land before you start the swing. Again the transition delay will be longer than usual.

 

[sidewinder22]

Agree with what they are saying. When you are holding a beverage your palm should be flatter or "cupped" on it, you have tilted finger tip grip on the beverage and your lower arm is pointed downward instead of horizontal and your elbow is still flying out behind your back, so the palm cupped should put the beverage vertical with your spine and your elbow in tighter or more forward toward chest instead of toward your back. The cup should always be in dynamic balance and anticipating your moves.


You are going over the top - rear knee is pushing your femur/hip over instead of swiveling/bending out of way to hang femur under hip to get upright on front leg. You need to tilt back on the front leg slightly to be in dynamic upright standing up on it and be able to take a sip of your beverage, so rear toes are a tiny little kickstand for that slight tilt back on a posted up front leg. You are posted up on the rear leg and using the front leg as a big kickstand. Your balance should feel totally different, note how in the finish you can't take a sip of your beverage when you are over the top.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuvujcEMLxs#t=4m20s

 

[Jet57]

As always, thank you all for that feedback/critiques. More time for can crushing later, for now swinging a hammer during a break. Getting closer I think...

 

[slowplastic]

I'm liking your swing and hit point, lots of things there seem to have really become normal for you now. But I think your balance is still aligned to the rear femur like in SW's marked up images in the last post. Your rear leg is kind of counterbalancing your torso tipping forward, but not also recoiling and counterbalancing the arm's leverage too.

I think your right hip isn't far enough toward the front of the teepad, so it is hitting the right leg as a kickstand instead of getting on top of it and pivoting open easily. Try doing your swing with a hammer from power pocket-ish outward through the hit pretty slowly. Not super slow motion balance drill wise, but maybe 0.25-0.5 speed so that there is still some momentum. Try to feel how your butt/lower body will pull the hammer through that outward arc when your arm is trying to extend away.

If I stand how I think you are with my torso kind of leaning forward/tipping, I feel my right thigh on the top and side engage around the hit. If I am a bit more upright and slightly more forward so that my butt can pivot back and my chest opens more, I feel both my left and right hips/butt together counterweighting the arm/hammer at the hit, but there is less muscle engagement on my plant thigh because I'm not trying to prevent myself from falling forward.

Also maybe try throwing a slightly upward anhyzer angle, it helped me feel it because I had to be so upright/vertical. Not an over the top anhyzer, but just like a slightly upward line drive. That helps me get my hips under my chest, rather than too much of a chest down tilt in a wrong way.

 

[Jet57]

Thank you SP. Gosh I am really struggling with my balance being aligned to the rear leg/femur. I do this in basically every drill and throw. As everyone can see by the side by side videos that I have been posting, I've been working hard to match/mimic SW's positions. But it is quite difficult. Musing a bit...

While all of the drills have an objective (crush a can, toss a hammer), the ultimate goal is about feel. The more I do these drills, the less I believe these drills are for discovering feel, and more about Learning to feel it. Sounds similar; but I think discovering implies more of an "ah ha" moment, whereas learning is about incremental progress (balance, coordination, alignment tempo...etc.) I'm sure some can do a drill once or twice and feel good about it, I find that I fall into the latter category.


Right hip not being far enough forward makes sense. Looking at SW while he is throwing the hammer, he appears to "stay behind the shot" so well. So that is what I was going for. Paying closer attention though, I can see his hip get a bit more further towards the front of the tee pad.

Leaning/Tipping forward was my attempt at keeping a good tilt through the shot. Are you saying that if viewed from behind, my chin/head would be over my toes, instead of just my noes? So I still need a bit of a tilt, just not too far, correct?

Where you feel it in both hips/butt to counter the arm/hammer instead of your thigh is a good mental trigger, I will remember that this evening. Think I recall SW saying it in a video as well.

Much appreciated!

 

[Jet57]

Left the office early, messing around before taking the princess to soccer practice. Trying hard to apply notes from SP and SW. This vid I'm including a couple attempts with some time in between. Hoping someone might spot something dumb/great I'm doing as I prepare to drop down. Hopping the stair height isn't an issue (felt okay doing it), I left my mats at work.

In general I feel more up right and towards the target in the finish.

Going to throw some plastic this evening, so if you see anything in these drills that I should do/don't do/change before I throw in a couple hours, I'm all ears!

 

[slowplastic]

That last swing looked a lot better to me.

Do you have a baseball bat? If so, I found it gave me way better feel than a hammer for counterweighting it with my body. I grabbed it right on the taper before the barrel, so the handle is kind of overlapping with my forearm, but underneath of it so it can swing/pivot freely. I think having the rounded bat helped me mentally not worry about how my hand rolls and just let it feel natural. Plus if you do any weird over-pivoting the handle is a good reminder.

You'll see in the markups SW had in that prior post, his head is farther back than yours and over his plant but his hips are turned farther forward. That green arc is kind of how it feels for the hips to want to come forward and rise you up, which I feel the most on upward slight anny shots.

Also I think you are focusing a lot on the backswing and being turned so far back. You know how to turn back and get your butt over your plant foot now, you won't lose that feel if you don't do it as extremely. So focus on the forward swing through the hit. Try to feel with a bat how your butt can really leverage the bat away. Or try to use your but/hips as a counterweight to swing the bat away like the olympic hammer throw. If you can feel your body behind your plant axis counterweighting the bat at any point, then apply that feel through the hit. Then make sure you keep getting back to that leveraged/anchored feel as you add more and more backswing.

 

[makeboi]

When doing this drop drill I feel more pressure on the outside knee than inside (and butt). Is this the correct feel? Sorry for the thread takeover :>

 

[sidewinder22]

When doing this drop drill I feel more pressure on the outside knee than inside (and butt). Is this the correct feel? Sorry for the thread takeover :>

I don't feel any pressure in the knee, but do feel the butt muscle engaging. Just like standing/squatting upright, falling straight down from dunk. There shouldn't be much turning or swinging or twisting torque in this drill if you do it like I show.

I just did this using the staircase like Jet, and I like that because being higher it forces your weight back forward faster(gravity) making it harder to go over top rear leg away from target, but Jet is fully extending his rear leg/knee and lifting his front toes way off the ground which are no-no's in this drill and making a much larger lateral move and turning a lot more, should only be 1-2 inches of lateral hip movement and just a little turning back of front foot/pelvis into plant.

Front toes need to stay on ground and rear knee needs to remain flexed - push front heel off the ground from front toes, not dragging front foot up/back by extending rear leg. Jet is also setup turned over top his front foot/head is past foot and his rear foot is turning/spinning out instead of staying leveraged forward against the ground like a post and his rear foot slides off the step in the crush. With rear foot higher it should be like 45 turned past perpendicular and not spin or move the rear foot.