Yep guess you should I am leaned/tilted, not to any extremes thou.
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~400' BH and ~325' FH Help
- Thread starter slowplastic
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Yep guess you should I am leaned/tilted, not to any extremes thou.
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slowplastic
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I realize there are clear issues with arm and front foot rotating super easy indicating my weight is behind heel, etc. But I'm trying to really make things feel different so I'd like to know if any of it is the right direction, since I don't know what right feels like.
I'm trying to have a more tilted spiral feeling, and get to my front leg more. Before it felt like my left shoulder was braced against my instep at hit point, now I'm try to be tilted/rotate shoulder under chin and move my left shoulder to my instep when I brace, which gives me a much farther forward feeling. Less lurch, more tilt.
My arm felt like I was gassing my pec instead of my shoulder on some throws, which was interesting. It looks like I'm too far behind my foot and like my arm isn't fully extended or something. But how it was feeling today:
-turn right shoulder/pendulum under chin, feel leverage of disc back even though thinking of target
-plant toes come down, think rear shoulder to plant
-leave rear foot with leverage, makes the arm come forward
-disc is near chest, feel pec to extend arm outward
I know I could clean up what's in this video, but I'm just trying to make myself jump to something significantly different.
Also, at what point should my throwing arm feel fully extended at all joints? Should I always feel like there is some bend in the shoulder/elbow and they just move with me? Or should the arm feel fully extended at the hit point...after the hit point...never...or 100% of the time?
https://vimeo.com/300411856
I'm trying to have a more tilted spiral feeling, and get to my front leg more. Before it felt like my left shoulder was braced against my instep at hit point, now I'm try to be tilted/rotate shoulder under chin and move my left shoulder to my instep when I brace, which gives me a much farther forward feeling. Less lurch, more tilt.
My arm felt like I was gassing my pec instead of my shoulder on some throws, which was interesting. It looks like I'm too far behind my foot and like my arm isn't fully extended or something. But how it was feeling today:
-turn right shoulder/pendulum under chin, feel leverage of disc back even though thinking of target
-plant toes come down, think rear shoulder to plant
-leave rear foot with leverage, makes the arm come forward
-disc is near chest, feel pec to extend arm outward
I know I could clean up what's in this video, but I'm just trying to make myself jump to something significantly different.
Also, at what point should my throwing arm feel fully extended at all joints? Should I always feel like there is some bend in the shoulder/elbow and they just move with me? Or should the arm feel fully extended at the hit point...after the hit point...never...or 100% of the time?
https://vimeo.com/300411856
slowplastic
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By this I'm meaning instead of going full wet noodle dingle arm from shoulder to hand...should I be making a firmer frame from shoulder to elbow? Like I do in FH shots where I try to keep my upper arm locked to the torso and the forearm/disc lags?
With my slightly improved balance it's feeling like I can keep my shoulder/upper arm locked and my forearm wants to get unloaded with leverage, and my arm doesn't get loose/extended until way out behind my back, say like 45+ degrees right of target line.
Is this something to aim for? I had been trying for a looser overall arm before, and couldn't feel this same arm frame because my spine had been sloshing too much.
For example I had always wondered how Mike C threw so far with his locked upper arm/shoulder/torso looking throw, it looked so slow and round but the disc would fly forever.
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IDT your thinking about the left shoulder is helping. Your left elbow is way out there. Elbow your hips forward without really rotating, this should increase your spine tilt/upper body lag away from the target. Just do that move without throwing, just shift forward elbowing the hips forward and staying closed. That should help instill the proper dynamic spine tilt onto the front leg to then unwind the tilted spiral around nice and balanced and smooth. You are still tilting your head over the top coming into the front leg and jamming into it, then jetting forward.
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My release feels like my arm is extended exactly the same as the One-Arm Olympic Hammer Throw before bending the elbow. Bend the elbow during the swing to bring disc into center and speed up rotation and then brace/stop rotating to let the elbow extend back to release and sling the momentum away from you.
If you let the upper arm lag too much you will lose tautness to the disc/hammer weight, so you do need a certain amount of maintaining upper arm frame when you allow the elbow to bend. Or try not bending the elbow like Feldy.
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slowplastic
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I realize you've linked that rear elbow move a few times recently and I'd thought it was just a "fix the arm" thing rather than important weight shift issue. Definitely paying attention now.
I feel the over the top that you're saying.
Does this description make sense...
So I will shift the hips laterally closed to the plant leg...this is a lower focus than the upper body/over the top I was doing in the video today. The spine will be tilted away from target slightly like how you show with the pool cue/ride the bull. This is the first frame of the pic below.
Then I feel the hips counterweight my torso...this feels more similar to my FH than it has before. Like my butt leads and then it lets my torso swing. This movement gets me to the spine tilted forward position naturally and in balance, rather than me trying to get to the spine tilted forward position by going over the top.
Now that everything is in leverage you can unwind the arm, as shown in the third position.
Essentially the difference from what I had been doing forever, is getting the counterweight/butt all the way to the front leg so that it can clear back rather than be way behind my plant. And the difference from what I had been doing today and more recently, is letting my spine be tilted away from target when I am shifting and trusting that it will tilted spiral/swivel and get to that spine angled forward position but in leverage from the counterweight.
I feel the over the top that you're saying.
Does this description make sense...
So I will shift the hips laterally closed to the plant leg...this is a lower focus than the upper body/over the top I was doing in the video today. The spine will be tilted away from target slightly like how you show with the pool cue/ride the bull. This is the first frame of the pic below.
Then I feel the hips counterweight my torso...this feels more similar to my FH than it has before. Like my butt leads and then it lets my torso swing. This movement gets me to the spine tilted forward position naturally and in balance, rather than me trying to get to the spine tilted forward position by going over the top.
Now that everything is in leverage you can unwind the arm, as shown in the third position.
Essentially the difference from what I had been doing forever, is getting the counterweight/butt all the way to the front leg so that it can clear back rather than be way behind my plant. And the difference from what I had been doing today and more recently, is letting my spine be tilted away from target when I am shifting and trusting that it will tilted spiral/swivel and get to that spine angled forward position but in leverage from the counterweight.
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I think I agree with that.
IMO much easier to see the tilted pool cue spiral in young McBeth than in Raptor Legs. Note how the top and bottom are moving in equal and opposite with the bottom of the stick twirling behind the front foot to the back foot, and the top twirling in front.
IMO much easier to see the tilted pool cue spiral in young McBeth than in Raptor Legs. Note how the top and bottom are moving in equal and opposite with the bottom of the stick twirling behind the front foot to the back foot, and the top twirling in front.
slowplastic
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That's a great markup. Swinging a lever, as long as I do the backswing with my right shoulder under my chin I can really feel that swivel motion and naturally spiraling my spine forward to the hit point.
It's interesting how in backhand I could never figure out how to get my spine to angle forward like that...constantly had the leaned back thing or the slosh forward after impact...but in my FH since all my sports are left foot forward/righty I set up with my spine back and get that counterweight to spine forward throughout. Definitely feels like that image but adjusted accordingly.
Also I just have to remember how little overall speed/length I need to walk into a FH and pop it 300'...doesn't feel like a long arm movement or high speed during the entire motion, just through the end with efficiency from a good set up. This is making me finally see the parallels.
Edit: And in that image I can clearly see how Paul's elbow is still bent and shoulder isn't too open at the hit point, but well into follow through he has a fully extended arm. This further shows what I was asking about, and your hammer throw vids helped too. Getting into better positions helped me feel that more accurately since my spine isn't moving as much...again feels more similar to my FH in ways.
It's interesting how in backhand I could never figure out how to get my spine to angle forward like that...constantly had the leaned back thing or the slosh forward after impact...but in my FH since all my sports are left foot forward/righty I set up with my spine back and get that counterweight to spine forward throughout. Definitely feels like that image but adjusted accordingly.
Also I just have to remember how little overall speed/length I need to walk into a FH and pop it 300'...doesn't feel like a long arm movement or high speed during the entire motion, just through the end with efficiency from a good set up. This is making me finally see the parallels.
Edit: And in that image I can clearly see how Paul's elbow is still bent and shoulder isn't too open at the hit point, but well into follow through he has a fully extended arm. This further shows what I was asking about, and your hammer throw vids helped too. Getting into better positions helped me feel that more accurately since my spine isn't moving as much...again feels more similar to my FH in ways.
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Right, if you watch me in Don't Spill the Beverage you might notice how I transition back and forth from BH to FH like it's nothing. FH swing is the same as my BH backswing and vice versa, everything is mirrored back and forth both ways. In Elephant Walk Drill I could throw FH and BH on each step.
slowplastic
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Yeah, but unfortunately being aware and seeing it is a step or many below understanding and feeling...I've known there's a relation but hadn't been able to make it happen. I've had too many partial "get it" things to get too excited but I'm definitely feeling this and it makes sense correlating to other motions naturally.
This feels kind of slow but very in control of my arm and the outward arc. If I didn't have a solid-ish FH to relate this feeling to and trust that it gets huge ejection speed then it would be pretty weird to think that this is the way to make something light go fast. I think what has taken me time to understand is that the BH and FH ejections happen near the beginning of the wrist arc, with the rest of the wrist movement being in the follow through. The disc doesn't load way back and way forward while in the hand...it loads back somewhat and will get ejected out as the wrist begins any motion.
When you say FH swing is the same as BH backswing, of course there is a different goal/intention so you don't lag the forearm back during backswings, etc., and the focus is on the intended target direction, correct? But you're meaning the body balance is the same in general.
Anyways, that image you marked up with the spiral on Paul is really good and it helps visualize how the spine moves during the throw, which has seemed over complicated to me once I realized that it doesn't simply rotate in place. This is the clearest picture I've seen of it.
This feels kind of slow but very in control of my arm and the outward arc. If I didn't have a solid-ish FH to relate this feeling to and trust that it gets huge ejection speed then it would be pretty weird to think that this is the way to make something light go fast. I think what has taken me time to understand is that the BH and FH ejections happen near the beginning of the wrist arc, with the rest of the wrist movement being in the follow through. The disc doesn't load way back and way forward while in the hand...it loads back somewhat and will get ejected out as the wrist begins any motion.
When you say FH swing is the same as BH backswing, of course there is a different goal/intention so you don't lag the forearm back during backswings, etc., and the focus is on the intended target direction, correct? But you're meaning the body balance is the same in general.
Anyways, that image you marked up with the spiral on Paul is really good and it helps visualize how the spine moves during the throw, which has seemed over complicated to me once I realized that it doesn't simply rotate in place. This is the clearest picture I've seen of it.
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When going slow, it's nearly identical on hyzer back and forth. The arm is turned slightly different for grip and elbow bend. I can still take my FH motion and grip as a BH backswing and switch my grip at the top/transition to BH and then go BH.
slowplastic
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Ok, insanely frustrating while throwing but looking at video once I'm on the computer helps a bit.
Basically I feel like I've read everything kind of understand stuff by now, yet I can't make my body do it right so I don't know how it actually feels. I really, really tried to do all sorts of variety to make changes happen instead of holding on to things...as much as possible anyways. Frustrating because it looks slightly better in some parts, but no huge feel change and also as usual no distance change. Tried to lead with butt/hips, let that turn my spine forward, and also leverage my shoulder back under my chin.
So I think I am just predisposed to going over the top or jamming or whatever...on the one leg drill video I tried to make the screenshot of when I transition to the forward swing and you can see how my knee is turned back with my hip over my foot and knee bowed. Is this the sign of my issue, and it is all the way to the core of my one leg throw?
I also included a hand in pocket standstill throw, trying to do anything to keep my arm in. This was a fairway 325ish. Other standstill shot was a Leo 330ish, was my best feeling throw of the day. At that point it felt like I was trying to turn back and land seated in a chair toward the target, butt first with spine tilt away, and let the clearing turn my spine.
At least now I can see that front knee/hip thing...I think. I need to know what to nuke from my habits, this is madness.
https://vimeo.com/300601477
https://vimeo.com/300601567
https://vimeo.com/300601385
Basically I feel like I've read everything kind of understand stuff by now, yet I can't make my body do it right so I don't know how it actually feels. I really, really tried to do all sorts of variety to make changes happen instead of holding on to things...as much as possible anyways. Frustrating because it looks slightly better in some parts, but no huge feel change and also as usual no distance change. Tried to lead with butt/hips, let that turn my spine forward, and also leverage my shoulder back under my chin.
So I think I am just predisposed to going over the top or jamming or whatever...on the one leg drill video I tried to make the screenshot of when I transition to the forward swing and you can see how my knee is turned back with my hip over my foot and knee bowed. Is this the sign of my issue, and it is all the way to the core of my one leg throw?
I also included a hand in pocket standstill throw, trying to do anything to keep my arm in. This was a fairway 325ish. Other standstill shot was a Leo 330ish, was my best feeling throw of the day. At that point it felt like I was trying to turn back and land seated in a chair toward the target, butt first with spine tilt away, and let the clearing turn my spine.
At least now I can see that front knee/hip thing...I think. I need to know what to nuke from my habits, this is madness.
https://vimeo.com/300601477
https://vimeo.com/300601567
https://vimeo.com/300601385
slowplastic
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Ok, think I have a better idea what's going. Simply put, as always, not getting to front leg in balance...in this case too much to the right of my plant/heel.
I think this is why my knee turns inward, because it is over my heel. I tried band-aiding this over the summer by feeling like I moved my plant knee outward/targetward like 2" as I started to plant, so it wouldn't stay turned in/jammed.
But when I get into my righty baseball stance I clearly see/feel my knees are bent over my toes. Also when I watch SW in the one leg video, at the transition his right knee bends over the toes.
This lets the knee stay over the foot rather than turn inward, and then the leg can extend to clear.
I think this is why my knee turns inward, because it is over my heel. I tried band-aiding this over the summer by feeling like I moved my plant knee outward/targetward like 2" as I started to plant, so it wouldn't stay turned in/jammed.
But when I get into my righty baseball stance I clearly see/feel my knees are bent over my toes. Also when I watch SW in the one leg video, at the transition his right knee bends over the toes.
This lets the knee stay over the foot rather than turn inward, and then the leg can extend to clear.
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Pretty much. SC says the finish position is the tuning fork of your swing, which is my position as well. I don't think I ever really figured out how to properly brace until I figured out OLD because I didn't know what it really feels like. The finish position is the same as the starting position/addressing the target with a full pre-swing. You never get close to the position I setup and address the target from. Your pre-swings are so tiny and weak because you aren't balanced or counterbalanced. I take a full pre-swing to address the target before the backswing and my rear foot/heel simply pivots straight up to maintain balance/post. I think the front foot must be 90 degrees or more turned away from target in OLD, you appear to be less than 90. My friend sets up like 135 degrees turned away, although he still hugs himself, but still throws 400' from it on reconstructed ankles.
Note how your weights are both on the left side of your fulcrum starting the backswing. You should be falling over forward, but you are jammed against that somehow. All your weight is loaded against one-side of the washing machine. Your chest is almost square to target. Note how centered and balanced everything is when I get to the same disc position in backswing, my chest is perpendicular to target and I look just like a balance scale, right? I can freely pivot around without losing balance like the Olympic Hammer Thrower tossing two separate weights.
Take a FULL practice swing at the target all the way to the finish position! You should be on your very tippy toes on the rear foot and note how the disc is now behind the fulcrum and my rear hand is in front of it. It will feel weird at first being this on top the front leg, it's just normal balance to me now. You should be able to hold that ^^ finish position setting up, just stand in your room in that position. You should be able to start the backswing from that position and then finish the actual throw in it/or feels just like it.
Note how your weights are both on the left side of your fulcrum starting the backswing. You should be falling over forward, but you are jammed against that somehow. All your weight is loaded against one-side of the washing machine. Your chest is almost square to target. Note how centered and balanced everything is when I get to the same disc position in backswing, my chest is perpendicular to target and I look just like a balance scale, right? I can freely pivot around without losing balance like the Olympic Hammer Thrower tossing two separate weights.
Take a FULL practice swing at the target all the way to the finish position! You should be on your very tippy toes on the rear foot and note how the disc is now behind the fulcrum and my rear hand is in front of it. It will feel weird at first being this on top the front leg, it's just normal balance to me now. You should be able to hold that ^^ finish position setting up, just stand in your room in that position. You should be able to start the backswing from that position and then finish the actual throw in it/or feels just like it.
Mocheez
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Does OLD stand for one leg drill?
HyzerUniBomber
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slowplastic
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Thanks, that setup change feels quite different. I can feel the rear knee to front knee that HUB talks about, and that hip rise feel that Feldberg had in that backyard video some time ago.
Here's a video explanation to see if I'm getting it, since I want to be sure before I spend more time wasting throws with obvious errors.
One question though...I totally feel the difference in one leg drill setting up with throwing arm forward and counter arm back, it feels more balanced out. But why is this the case in the static one leg drill vs. both arms pumping forward together battering ram style during X-step? I'm guessing it's because you have your butt turning to counterweight during the X-step.
https://vimeo.com/300794336
https://vimeo.com/300794336^^^^^^^URL for bigger video link
Here's a video explanation to see if I'm getting it, since I want to be sure before I spend more time wasting throws with obvious errors.
One question though...I totally feel the difference in one leg drill setting up with throwing arm forward and counter arm back, it feels more balanced out. But why is this the case in the static one leg drill vs. both arms pumping forward together battering ram style during X-step? I'm guessing it's because you have your butt turning to counterweight during the X-step.
https://vimeo.com/300794336
https://vimeo.com/300794336^^^^^^^URL for bigger video link
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Much better. I wouldn't say OLD is static. If you one arm battering ram like I do at the end of the vid, it's the same counter when your arms separate from each other. Rear side must counter front side to fully release/extend throwing arm like I show with Paige Pierce same as GG and Avery in Swedish Badfish.
slowplastic
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Cool, with the ok that this is the right direction I've thought about it a little more. The pictures above and explanations in one leg drill helped me get into those positions and feel this very easily. But I think I know why I had been doing this wrong for so long.
The throw is one arm...lead arm. So I had been stacking what felt like my lead hip over my plant leg. Dynamic balance of right hip to right foot. That's why my body weight would be to the left and it would jam my hip out to the right and I would jerk forward.
Instead I have to balance spine over foot, so during the throw the hip will end up to the right/heel side of the plant. What this feels like is I now balance either my lower spine or belly button to my plant foot. This keeps me very centered.
I realized after making the video above, that this was natural to me in RH baseball or golf because the swing is two handed so I balance the middle of my torso/weight/spine. Or likely it's also from doing those motions since I was very young. However...I then realized to mirror this feeling in my backswing for disc golf. So instead of left hip over left foot in backswing to right hip over right foot...now it feels like a train track between my feet where I directly move the navel between feet. Constant leverage and control, very direct feeling.
The swing feels shorter in a way because I have leverage at every point compared to before, and it's extremely intuitive...very simple to repeat the motion. Hopefully this translates to a velocity gain.
The throw is one arm...lead arm. So I had been stacking what felt like my lead hip over my plant leg. Dynamic balance of right hip to right foot. That's why my body weight would be to the left and it would jam my hip out to the right and I would jerk forward.
Instead I have to balance spine over foot, so during the throw the hip will end up to the right/heel side of the plant. What this feels like is I now balance either my lower spine or belly button to my plant foot. This keeps me very centered.
I realized after making the video above, that this was natural to me in RH baseball or golf because the swing is two handed so I balance the middle of my torso/weight/spine. Or likely it's also from doing those motions since I was very young. However...I then realized to mirror this feeling in my backswing for disc golf. So instead of left hip over left foot in backswing to right hip over right foot...now it feels like a train track between my feet where I directly move the navel between feet. Constant leverage and control, very direct feeling.
The swing feels shorter in a way because I have leverage at every point compared to before, and it's extremely intuitive...very simple to repeat the motion. Hopefully this translates to a velocity gain.
