~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[HyzerUniBomber]

The swing feels shorter in a way because I have leverage at every point compared to before, and it's extremely intuitive...very simple to repeat the motion. Hopefully this translates to a velocity gain.

Interesting that you'd feel it shorter, but everything you describe and your video all sound and look good.

I'd still argue against a towel, because it's impossible to leverage... towels require a fast/quick snap. When you have leverage at every point, as you eloquently put it, you'll feel that the hand can move slow-ish but have tremendous leverage on the disc.

You'll find the balance with a disc where you go too slow - and miss out on power, and go too fast and lose the leverage. It's super hilarious that I'll regularly have to remind myself to slow down so I can maintain leverage and throw faster. SOOO INTUITIVE!

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah it was interesting that it felt shorter to me too, when I thought it should feel longer...which is why I made sure to write that.

I think what it is, is I am used to getting a long arm in the backswing and have some disconnect. So my arm feels way back there and so far from my body. Instead with constant leverage I feel more in control but my arm doesn't feel so far away. But I do think that the power pocket or something feels longer...like I have leverage from the backswing toward the power pocket and then to the hit point. So I have control for longer.

Yeah I know the towel kind of sucks, but it lets me swing faster so I could see if any of my balance broke down.

Hopefully will get a chance to throw tomorrow and see what this does for me.

 

[Hoeschel]

For me it also feels way shorter than before. I like this throw from seppo because you can see how little the disc has to move when you accelerate it.

 

[axion]

https://vimeo.com/300794336^^^^^^^URL for bigger video link

So, I have had labral repairs on each of my hips. Labrum cut away or pinned down and my femur/pelvis re-shaped. Outside of being unable to continue squatting and doing BJJ, disc golf has never caused me pain. In really trying to do this OLD lately, its causing my severe pain and swelling in my hip, exactly where you are talking about feeling it in your video. So whatever you were doing, I am clearly still doing.

 

[sidewinder22]

So, I have had labral repairs on each of my hips. Labrum cut away or pinned down and my femur/pelvis re-shaped. Outside of being unable to continue squatting and doing BJJ, disc golf has never caused me pain. In really trying to do this OLD lately, its causing my severe pain and swelling in my hip, exactly where you are talking about feeling it in your video. So whatever you were doing, I am clearly still doing.

That doesn't sound good. I would rest until you heal and see a dr if it doesn't get better.

What it looks like to me in your OLD, is that you are too bent over and really trying to force your hips/pelvis to rotate or twist around really fast and then jam up. Just trying to spin your body way too much too fast too soon and not being connected to the arm/disc weight. You only need a small amount of hip movement in the throw in the correct sequence. Force dissipates over distance, so the smaller the turn distance the better, and the slower you go the faster you can accelerate in a short distance. Around 13s-20s you are lining up with your front hip open. Stay neutral on the hip lining up the swing and the momentum of the swing should pull your hips into the backswing and into the finish.

In OLD when you really get balanced upright on top of the front hip/femur your pelvis will rotate with the backswing. Squatting also causes your femurs/hips to internally and externally rotate, but in a normal 2-leg squat your pelvis doesn't turn because you have both feet counter torquing. In a 1-leg squat(One Leg Drill and in normal throw) your pelvis will rotate because the other foot is not there to resist or counter that torque.

Pay attention to Jimmy talking about the difference between twisting on two-legs vs turning on one-leg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BUOAZrbMGs&t=10m

 

[slowplastic]

Definitely a better direction but not all the way there. Seems like everything has to be right for me to break through this.

So it's feeling much more intuitive for the balance. But I think I'm still drifting too far leftward in my steps, although I'm managing to direct my body in more balance toward my foot now that I better understand the goal. But I still need to keep my strides down the momentum line better so I'm not then trying to make my body get to where my stride is.

I was getting a ton of slight nose up releases. It seemed like my shots stayed in the air forever but weren't going farther but it's because of nose up. Lots of really really lazy fairways in the 350 range that would float out there slightly nose up. Distance drivers weren't flipping like I expected and only got like 20' more than fairways often. Nose up was killing me. You can see at the hit point of the standstill how the putter gets angled up...shift <> for frame by frame.

My arm is still doing something weird. It's not as bad as before but it's still not right. I'm not sure if I'm trying to tell myself to throw the disc still and moving it early so it disconnects? It looks not as bad in my standstills but when I have more momentum then the forearm and disc just do their own thing more often. It really seems like I'm not getting my forearm as part of the lever connected to everything and pulled by everything.

But when I did have some shots line up with the disc feeling like it stayed along my forearm, it felt like video of pro's would make me think...like the disc gets rolled off my forearm/palm and like there's infinitely clean pull on it. Like I can feel the plane of the disc get ejected with zero torque. So I know it's closer to right.

https://vimeo.com/301122193

https://vimeo.com/301122303

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah looking better in standstill, but your backswing is still out of sync and end up striding into too wide stance. X-step you never get balanced on the rear leg and are cooked from there or actually before that.

1. Note how your posture is twisted/bent and turned open to the target at address. Note how I'm getting ready to address the target in more upright balanced and athletic posture all centered and squared up laterally to target with my front shoulder is stacked right over front foot, and my rear arm is stacked over rear foot. You could drop 200lbs on my shoulders and I would still be upright and balanced, you would collapse/fall off balance as your core is not all squared up.

2. Note your rear foot has gone completely airborne flat footed with a weak pre-swing, thumb still curled back closed to target. Note how my lower arm/thumb/disc is let go to the top of the pre-swing and pointed at target and my rear foot doesn't move laterally or go completely airborne, but weight has left the rear foot.

3. Note your rear foot, knee, and hip has shifted laterally away from target during the backswing and thumb/disc curled in ahead of body turning like the disc weighs nothing/manipulating the weight and losing tautness to disc. The rear foot moving away from target is cooking your leverage here. Note how I'm braced inside the rear foot and turned much further back or winding up with rear knee and hip going targetward, and my thumb/disc lagged behind the body turning like the disc is a heavy sledgehammer, it's weight is simply doing what it's going to do in a free flowing taut pendulum.

4. Note your front foot/knee strides forward and opens toward target while your rear hip and knee shift away from target. When you look at the series of pics, your weight moves back and forth like the washing machine with the weight all loaded to one side. Note how much further I've turned back inside the rear foot, my front knee has kicked inward/closed/away from target with the body turning back away and striding targetward. My upper arm is much wider because I've turned much further back with the body more centered inside the washing machine and rotating nice and efficient and balanced.

 

[Hoeschel]

I'm seeing a lot in your form i see in my own looking back. I definitely see the disconnect between upper arm and upper body. I also think, and this is related, that you are turning your hips back too far, especially in the standstill. I might be wrong, but i think when the pros turn their hips back like that, they take a huge last step, which automatically opens them again. But with your small shift, you land in the plant still turned back too far. This means you need to bring the hip around, your upper body follows and you end up with too much weight on the left side. For me the timing of the front foot is the telltale sign.

For me, the fix is/was throwing without much reachback. I create a unit of upper body and upper arm using only the muscles in my back (chest muscles are loose) and keep the disc as wide away from my body as possible (sticking the shoulder out helps). Then i only throw using the lower body, addressing the target like sw does in the OLD. The rigid frame eliminates the disconnect. Keeping the disc wide makes it seem pointless to turn around the front leg, because i would feel out of balance immidiately. The lack of reachback means i don't turn back too far and forces me to focus on the important parts. It all feels very similar to seppos throw i posted above, just way exaggerated. You can actually see it in a lot of pros when the don't throw full power. Kevin Jones is a prime example, or Paul throwing a nova. If anyone is interested i can post videos of them doing it when i get home.

As for the nose up. For me it mostly fixes itself when i get the sequence right.

 

[Hoeschel]

For me the timing of the front foot is the telltale sign.

Meant to say timing of the front foot rotation

I also think you could give BWs idea of pushing with the left side a try. I don't know if its the right thing to do in general, but i think you should be in a position where you are able to do it which i don't see in your throw. No need to throw a disc, easy to do in the living room.

 

[slowplastic]

That's another really good set of images and descriptions SW.

I think that Schusterick driving video that came out while I was in the early form stages messed me up with a lot of concepts or focus points that I have to get away from. Thinking too much lateral rather than leveraged rotation.

I think I can feel all of the points you mentioned. I was trying to get too far to/over the front leg in the address as if I was getting to the same one leg position rather than being balanced dynamically in a similar way, while keeping in mind I am now in a two leg/standstill position. I definitely feel what you mean with my thumb position as an indicator of what my wrist is doing...I was not fully releasing the leverage in the pre-swing, and I definitely agree I have been "setting" the wrist/disc in the backswing and almost manipulating or moving the forearm back trying to keep it slightly closed. This is likely the start of my disconnect, rather than having a slight natural lag in the backswing and letting everything move as it should. Easier with a lever and when I'm not trying to throw.

I can also really feel the difference between how I feel like I have been moving/shifting onto the rear leg...rather than using the rear leg as a leverage point to turn back inside the stance more balanced. Again it will be an adjustment to trust that I don't need a big lateral move, and that tight rotation will get me the power.

As for my balance being bad on my rear leg for X-step...I guess just focus on feeling the right thing standstill and then maintain it? A question I have about pro's forward tilt in early X-step though...is the forward tilt like the spine toward target tilt in the kick the can drill? Like you are balanced over the rear leg so you have a tilted spine toward the target as you begin to turn back, then this turns into a spine away from target before you catch the weight on the plant leg? Or is it just a more simple "athletic spine forward" like when running/jogging type of thing to get your momentum to move targetward?

 

[slowplastic]

I'm seeing a lot in your form i see in my own looking back. I definitely see the disconnect between upper arm and upper body. I also think, and this is related, that you are turning your hips back too far, especially in the standstill. I might be wrong, but i think when the pros turn their hips back like that, they take a huge last step, which automatically opens them again. But with your small shift, you land in the plant still turned back too far. This means you need to bring the hip around, your upper body follows and you end up with too much weight on the left side. For me the timing of the front foot is the telltale sign.

For me, the fix is/was throwing without much reachback. I create a unit of upper body and upper arm using only the muscles in my back (chest muscles are loose) and keep the disc as wide away from my body as possible (sticking the shoulder out helps). Then i only throw using the lower body, addressing the target like sw does in the OLD. The rigid frame eliminates the disconnect. Keeping the disc wide makes it seem pointless to turn around the front leg, because i would feel out of balance immidiately. The lack of reachback means i don't turn back too far and forces me to focus on the important parts. It all feels very similar to seppos throw i posted above, just way exaggerated. You can actually see it in a lot of pros when the don't throw full power. Kevin Jones is a prime example, or Paul throwing a nova. If anyone is interested i can post videos of them doing it when i get home.

As for the nose up. For me it mostly fixes itself when i get the sequence right.

Yeah this all makes sense. I have to trust that if it's done correctly I'll get efficient power. Keep things together and in sequence...rather than getting long and sloshy.

Good to hear to stick with it and trust that the balance and sequence will fix the nose up issues. It seems like that's the case but it sucks if I want to play a round...I know I can do other things to band-aid it and get consistent releases with current form, but if I want to make the real changes to a proper form I've got to see these poor releases until it all comes together.

 

[sidewinder22]

As for my balance being bad on my rear leg for X-step...I guess just focus on feeling the right thing standstill and then maintain it? A question I have about pro's forward tilt in early X-step though...is the forward tilt like the spine toward target tilt in the kick the can drill? Like you are balanced over the rear leg so you have a tilted spine toward the target as you begin to turn back, then this turns into a spine away from target before you catch the weight on the plant leg? Or is it just a more simple "athletic spine forward" like when running/jogging type of thing to get your momentum to move targetward?

Right it's simple balance and leverage forward. It looks like you are trying are to shift your weight back in the backswing. Your weight is technically already back at any point in the xstep no matter your balance because you are moving forward or you are already well behind the plant in the xstep and still have to move forward to the plant. So you technically can't really shift any more weight back no matter the position or balance(but your leverage can change via position) it's just automatic back because of the steps. So all you need to worry about is turning back and maintaining balance and leverage and momentum and rhythm forward in xstep.

 

[slowplastic]

Ok that makes sense.

And if I do my righty golf swing I can feel how Shawn Clement has his weight kind of prepared to drop over the plant position...like you rotate/turn in leverage in the backswing and then drop down to start the forward swing. If I try to shift laterally back and then move forward it feels like many separate things. Yet that's my instinct when moving RHBH. I can feel the difference.

 

[slowplastic]

I actually played a round for once compared to just throwing lately, and the last advice really helped. It felt more like my righty golf swing, how I drop down as the club is still on the way into the apex rather than at the apex...my arm is now a weight that I let swing back with a little lag and I go toe-heel and feel it want to engage forward. So that was a new feeling, something that I will need to spend some time with.

But not shifting back so much, trying to be centered in standstills and just maintain loading leverage in X-step helped me end up in better balance and keep the nose down consistently. I was lacing lines even though this form is new to me, I probably missed my line only twice. So I have to remember...all this is really helping the game of golf. The OLD balance focus has also helped me simplify my FH thought process, I felt like I could keep things a bit more compact than my normal and still have all the power I expect.

 

[billyjacko]

The OLD balance focus has also helped me simplify my FH thought process, I felt like I could keep things a bit more compact than my normal and still have all the power I expect.

I can relate to this one quite a bit. Over the last few weeks I've been focusing on keeping my backhand form tight and balanced. It's transitioned super well to my forehand. I went from looking like a flailing unbalanced mess, to something much closer to how Barsby throws (not that I can flick like him). I haven't really tested it outside the course, but accuracy and distance on the forehand have jumped significantly.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that's how it felt to me...more like Barsby style. I'm sure my reachback is still super long and I'm doing weird things a bit, but I definitely could feel a difference already.

Also disc golf has helped my softball game over time, but now it has helped snowboarding. Today was first day for me of the season, and OLD and hershyzer instantly made my front boards super evenly balanced and effortless. I feel like my butt and chest counter perfectly to carry my weight down the feature, I swivel around with chin over front foot on an imaginary axis, and I can turn myself as backwards as I want without worrying about slipping out to my face. It really shows why people who are "naturally athletic" and understand these motions and balance points are just good at everything quickly.

 

[billyjacko]

YOLD and hershyzer instantly made my front boards super evenly balanced and effortless.

Don't remember what thread, but SW posted a 'how to board slide' vid that finally made Hershyzer make sense to me.

 

[sidewinder22]

Don't remember what thread, but SW posted a 'how to board slide' vid that finally made Hershyzer make sense to me.

It was in this thread. Rob is explaining how landing darkside before "the move" is death which is basically the same thing as the backswing being out of sequence or the early backswing when you are turned back before you are leveraged forward of your rear foot.

This is like the Hershyzer.

 

[slowplastic]

It was in this thread. Rob is explaining how landing darkside before "the move" is death which is basically the same thing as the backswing being out of sequence or the early backswing when you are turned back before you are leveraged forward of your rear foot.

Oh that's interesting, I know you posted it earlier but it makes even more sense now. I haven't heard the term "darkside", usually referred to as landing blind, but this makes a lot of sense to me now how it relates to the throw setup. On a snowboard with both feet strapped to the same object, which is a slippery piece of plastic and with it sliding on a slippery metal or plastic obstacle...if your momentum isn't correct and body leverage isn't correct at the start of any move then you're not fixing it at the end.

When people go to throw, they have their feet separate and can push off the ground, so they can start incorrectly and feel like they get their momentum back at the last move, so it feels long and strong but really it's trying to just get them back to somewhere they weren't set up for.

For example when you want to pull the front board back to your forward stance you have to be counter rotated in that balanced hershyzer position. Extreme example is when you do a 270 out that opposite way which is called the pretzel direction since it's so awkward you feel like you twist your body up to force yourself to spin the wrong way out. This is like how you should be set up...you are countered and leveraged through your body all the way from the setup/backswing so that you are ready to unwind at the end of the plant. On the snowboard your arm/upper body stay still and legs rotate...rather than legs planted to ground and unleashing the arm.



The opposite is like when people are turning back before even striding, with knee or hip or shoulder behind back foot and they are already rotated away from the target. This sets you up for just spinning the wrong way. This is how you would take a front board to fakie/switch...as in continue to turn the same direction until you land backwards. You essentially keep shoulders over feet rotating through, when taken to 270 or more it's a "same way" spin out. The initial momentum is to actually turn your upper body past 90 degrees to give yourself leverage to keep turning out of the feature. And you typically feel like you're setting your weight/axis over your rear foot, rather than the front foot as in the pretzel or back to forward move.

My point is...when you are strapped in and along for the ride once your momentum starts, it's very easy to tell what way you're going to be forced to keep turning. But when you're walking through a throw and pre-rotated backwards it feels like you're going to have a really big load up and transfer of weight and rotation...but really you've sloshed your momentum away from the intended direction and you're just fighting yourself to try to get anything back.

It's pretty interesting how this correlates between seemingly unrelated things.

 

[sidewinder22]

...if your momentum isn't correct and body leverage isn't correct at the start of any move then you're not fixing it at the end.

When people go to throw, they have their feet separate and can push off the ground, so they can start incorrectly and feel like they get their momentum back at the last move, so it feels long and strong but really it's trying to just get them back to somewhere they weren't set up for.

My point is...when you are strapped in and along for the ride once your momentum starts, it's very easy to tell what way you're going to be forced to keep turning. But when you're walking through a throw and pre-rotated backwards it feels like you're going to have a really big load up and transfer of weight and rotation...but really you've sloshed your momentum away from the intended direction and you're just fighting yourself to try to get anything back.

It's pretty interesting how this correlates between seemingly unrelated things.

Yep, with two independent feet you can kind of get away with terrible positions(certainly not ideal), like SC says when you go from One Leg Drill back to two feet it opens up a whole can of worms.

So we should be calling the x-step the pretzel.

Relating things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz-jmLrT25k#t=3m

I might be learning some of the lingo