~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

Haha that clip was awesome. I saw some guy preseason last year with a super stylish front board, the kind you know looks awesome in pictures, and started wondering why everyone was so good so early in the year. Then I realized it was Sage Kotsenburg.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've always found it interesting that skate boarders seem to pick up disc golf really quick. I suppose it's much easier transition than snowboarding since their feet aren't strapped in to a heavy board and they push the board with the rear foot.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah there's definitely a balance difference...skateboarding is harder because there is little margin for error. If you get outside your stance you're done, instantly. Like hip or elbow to ground before you can think. On a snowboard you have all that nose/tail to flex and balance you or absorb impacts. You depend on landing a bit on the extra board or leaning into it for different style on tricks, but on a skateboard there's nothing there and the trucks are only like 15" or so apart for typical wheelbase I think...my feet are mounted 23" middle to middle bindings on a snowboard to start with and then you can lean on the board from there. So a pretty huge difference.

The one foot balance thing while pushing definitely helps being centered, but you learn to do weird micro adjustments over your whole foot. You'll have it down the middle of the board but slightly not straight forward...and you can kind of pressure it one way or the other while on one foot to get the slightest turn while pushing. So again you get really comfortable with being flat footed but in weird ways that you can manipulate different parts of the board with different parts of your feet.

 

[sidewinder22]

That would also explain your tendency for a too wide width of stance, and skateboarders being used to a more narrow upright stance throwing and better dynamics.

 

[Hoeschel]

That make me think .. are you wearing skate shoes for throwing? Kinda looks like it. Maybe something with softer sole would help with being flat-footed. I imagine sidesteps in running shoos would feel horribly unless you are on the balls. The high heel might be detrimental in other ways however, so idk.

 

[Hoeschel]

Or just put something soft, like a thick sock under the heels

 

[billyjacko]

I've always found it interesting that skate boarders seem to pick up disc golf really quick. I suppose it's much easier transition than snowboarding since their feet aren't strapped in to a heavy board and they push the board with the rear foot.

My friend is a really good skateboarder and I'll take him out and he crushes forehands. We'll nerd out together where I talk about disc golf form and he talks about Skatebarding. He always talks about the the shoulders and how the weight fallows the shoulders. You just have to have impeccable balance to pull off some of the crazy stuff they do. Also, when they fall it's pavement and steel rather than snow, so you really have to be balanced and nimble even when falling. It's just such an athletic sport.

 

[slowplastic]

That make me think .. are you wearing skate shoes for throwing? Kinda looks like it. Maybe something with softer sole would help with being flat-footed. I imagine sidesteps in running shoos would feel horribly unless you are on the balls. The high heel might be detrimental in other ways however, so idk.

Unfortunately I think my problems are more ingrained than that would fix, but I'm feeling more new balance points and continual leverage so I'm feeling pretty confident it will get worked out. But it's also showing me just how important balance is at all points, there's no magic "get your arm like this" fix to disc golf.

 

[slowplastic]

He always talks about the the shoulders and how the weight fallows the shoulders.

This is what has been the biggest problem for me mentally. It's the exact opposite logic or goal. Instead of planting your feet like in disc golf to leverage the shoulders back and then launch forward...you try to wind up and lead the shoulders, then release the feet off the ground. When it's in sync you get easy and connected rotation once the lower body catches up after the first 90 degrees or so. So I'm used to leading the upper body with a leverage point on the ground that is kind of left behind...then it snaps/pops and releases, then everything stays together.

It's just so interesting to realize that opposite goal but similar balance. If I just stand on normal ground/shoes and think front board with opposite/pretzel style loading for spin out, then imagine I'm holding a disc with my trailing hand...that's my backswing since I'm left foot forward so right hand has disc. I'm so leveraged and centered. In contrast if I think the stupid overemphasized backswing with my back shoulder blade or elbow way pointed at target, then suddenly think I need to get out of a front board...it'd be bad. I'd have nothing left in my body to spin against...so I guess that means I have nothing to start a throw with.

 

[slowplastic]

You just have to have impeccable balance to pull off some of the crazy stuff they do. Also, when they fall it's pavement and steel rather than snow, so you really have to be balanced and nimble even when falling. It's just such an athletic sport.

I have no idea how pro's can jump down the same stair set repeatedly and just roll out of it, no impact directly to anything. It's really impressive, I'd have a rolled ankle/bruised heel/busted up arm after the first try. They seem to be more likely to get hurt when they expect to land and something goes wrong like the board snaps. Until then they decide halfway through the trick when it's going wrong to kick the board away from them and take a smooth roll out.

On snow you just keep your arms in so you don't bust a wrist or collar bone, and make your surface area kind of big to let the body and board flex absorb it. That would not work on pavement...yikes. Not bracing your body and letting yourself take the hit or go with a tumble instead of fight it is an instinct you have to learn over time, but it's a whole different level on pavement.

 

[slowplastic]

Partially posted because of terrible Paint work, but this is honestly making my backswing/load feel extremely compact. There's just likely a very small % of disc golfers that this would be an effective teaching tool for haha

 

[slowplastic]

So yeah...that actually worked for me to improve my balance, I got some throwing in.

I feel like it's way more natural now to wait until I'm inside my rear foot stride to turn back. Instead of feeling like I have to learn to pitch/setup lefty, this regular footed frontboard feeling makes me feel leveraged and swivelly over my rear leg with tons of balance potential just in how my torso/butt move and balance. I can actually now go through a lefty baseball windup with WAY more balance now...just don't ask me to throw lefty. Funny how you just need something to click and then it makes way more sense after from all perspectives.

Anyways, backswing feels way more compact and intuitive, but arm is still allowed to do its thing. Going to take practice and repetition but this is again definitely the right direction. Could throw at like 70% and with a compact feeling load/backswing and get all the power I would expect otherwise with way less effort and strain. My shoulder socket feels nothing compared to what I was doing even a few months ago.

I can't believe how many times I've felt like my effort/strain has reduced along this journey.

 

[slowplastic]

This was my second time out throwing with this form, and it's definitely a way better feel than any I've had. The main things I'm feeling are that I wait until I'm supported inside my rear foot to load back, in that "regular stance frontboard" balance point, and I'm allowing my throwing arm to have its own weight/momentum. The best way I can describe it, is a "connected lag" through the arm...it's not limp but I'm not telling it where to go. I let my weight drop before the arm comes forward, but I'm not letting it get disconnected at my shoulder. I think this is way more correct than anything I'd felt before.

For the good things, my velocity is good as I was never trying more than 70% and I was getting stable-overstable stuff to carry as far on push hyzers as they normally would on flat to fade lines. I was hitting lines as good as I ever have. And I felt like I just had to concentrate on overall feel and balance while on the tee, rather than micro adjustments or disc angles or anything.

I feel like I need to keep at this to let itself settle in a bit and become my normal feel, but I can see my back arm is still doing the same thing that it always has and my front leg stride and absence of plantar flexion are still a problem. When drilling, I can feel the Hershyzer balance better than ever when starting in a front board position or lefty pitching movement, I'm just going to have to figure out how to incorporate that in my X-step and throws. Again I think I just need to get this ingrained a bit more before/so that I can mess with it.

https://vimeo.com/302169650

 

[sidewinder22]

Somewhat closer - still a couple fundamental issues. In the finish you can tell you were off balance behind your front leg as your left foot and left hand finish going to the target folding/collapsing past the left hip, instead of your left hip extended upright and CoG going to the target with left arm wrapping around your taking a sip of a beverage.

1. Note your shoulders are open and both arms pump together instead of the pump separating the arms wider and your right upper arm is not fully extended from body and/or right foot. So you are aiming your swing with your shoulders open/collapsed upper arm with I think is what really causes your elbow to drop during the swing and get off plane.

Hershyzer - I think you took the pretzel too literal with open shoulders, shoulders technically should be closed as the arm swing is fully extended, but haven't rotated back yet. Actual release should be with closed shoulders(GG = max extension) or what still feels like closed shoulder for the rest of us mortals. You are going to have a hard time maintaining balance and fully extending/releasing the swing with both arms pumping and swinging together. Note my one-arm swing/pump is fully extended with closed shoulders and arm separated and counter balanced/weighted. So my disc is extended targetward as far away as possible from my right foot and there is a nice 90 degree angle between my whole right leg/body and arm/disc. It will probably feel ridiculously wide to you.

2. Note your right knee never fully extends into x-step, your left foot is stepping in the way toward left I think. Note my right leg is fully extended with fully extended right arm/thumb pointed at apex, and left foot stepping out of the way toward the right. This might feel like striding in the wrong direction toward the right/open on the x-step. You can't really stride open on the step before the plant. This will also open up the backswing, or make more room for the arm/disc to swing straight back through.

 

[slowplastic]

Interesting. Yeah that two armed pump is my instinct, which you pointed out to me in the one leg throws. That's why I was kind of asking about the difference between arms separating there compared to when I thought it was ok in an X-step to have them battering ram together since your butt counter weights. But that was just me not getting it.

I think you're right with my feet too...I always feel like I want to drift left or my step wants to drift left, and that's why I'm always slightly behind the plant heel. I'll try to get that initial stride popped up more, I haven't extended off my right leg like that before.

Comparing the two arm pump in an X-step with the separate arms there's a pretty huge feel difference. With the two arms together, I feel like my torso opens at the waist and then turns back. With the single arm, my upper body feels turned back like 10 degrees and consistently more balanced, and my arm feels like it wants to shoot out more on its own. I think that's my torso/shoulders staying closed while the arm releases, and my left arm counters. It automatically feels different, from a slower torso opening/pivot to a faster upper arm opening feel.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yep, sounds about right.

Interesting I'm just noticing my x-step there looks just like One Leg Drill to me with the legs/feet. Fully extended upright on right leg, and left leg bent behind out of the way. Just like fully countered finish:

 

[slowplastic]

I've played like 3 rounds in the last couple of months and lots of snow on the ground now...but with all of this talk in the kinetic sequence thread I want to see if I'm in a better direction here.

I can see that I'm spinning out my front side as I'm coming down into the plant. I think it's partly because I'm afraid to do some damage indoors. I know last round I played I tried to just drop straight down from toe to heel while staying closed, and it let me throw at 65% in poor conditions and hit my summertime distances on my local course...or even overshoot a lot of mids without trying and at the low power. So I think I can correct that spinning out a bit.

But mostly I'm interested in my rear leg movement, this feels way sooner forward with the rear leg and like I can unload the arm differently with this counterweight action.

https://vimeo.com/316202173

https://vimeo.com/316202173^^^^^LINK

 

[sidewinder22]

Hmmm, you need to be bringing in a lot more momentum into the plant from a stride for the rear foot to jump forward off the ground like that. You are still kind of squishing the bug in a way instead of squashing it. Your heel spins out to the left in behind view while my heel goes to the right.

Below is my pump swing before the backswing, my rear foot is deweighted although it might not look like it, but note the forward spine tilt chest toward knee, and the full extension of the arm, the swing weight of the hammer is pulling the arm out taut through the shoulder and pulling my center of gravity through into the upright finish. It looks like you are trying to pull the arm into your body and keeping it tight and manipulating the hammer instead of letting the arm/hammer go more and using your body to guide it more. Your backswing/transition also appear abbreviated/tight and not letting the arm/hammer go more away from your body.

Make sure your right shoulder and elbow get out forward of the hip before the whip. You appear to be more in the classic "reverse C" golf position and kicking yourself in the butt to counter balance it, instead of the arm/hammer from a more forward position on the front leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BUOAZrbMGs#t=12m15s

 

[slowplastic]

Excellent, I can feel that already. I feel like my rear foot is just gripping into the ground for longer if I try to direct it to counter my body, rather than wanting to kick upward immediately. Basically I was trying to feel like getting my knee/femur forward to the plant under me as a shift, but if I instead think of getting my weight off that rear leg at the same time but directing it behind the plant, the foot stays leveraging the ground longer and the leg swings behind me. Looks more normal for that swing pace, and I think I can keep the front side closed as I plant more naturally since I'm not pushing toward the plant or even open of it.

I can also feel having a longer arm out front of me. I'll play around with this and get another video at some point once I see where I'm at, but that was very helpful.

 

[slowplastic]

Make sure your right shoulder and elbow get out forward of the hip before the whip.

Oh. I think I feel the active hit point...

Duh...same mechanics as forehand and I know I've been told. Just it's easier for me to get shoulder/elbow in front in FH. Suddenly I feel the disc pull through. I feel like I can have my arm straight out in front of my chest and just pop the disc and it would go 150'+ so easily, just like I can pop my wrist and forearm and get a FH shot out like that.

First two swings are how my shoulder/arm/hit has been. The rest are me experimenting with getting the shoulder in front of the hip and the disc has way more power behind it. Obviously I'm keeping it REALLY reigned in so I don't obliterate something.

https://vimeo.com/316218640

https://vimeo.com/316218640^^^^LINK