~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

Great pictures, thanks.

I think a lot of this is caused/rooted in my right shoulder not being forward enough. I think it still rotates a bit over the foot, so that is why my head and left shoulder orbit left a bit vs. shoulders trading places. That's also why the right shoulder goes up and the arm goes down near the power pocket. I'm getting the shoulder slightly ahead of my right hip now so I'm not getting the disc jamming upwards like I always had been....but I'm just not forward enough with shoulder below. Does that make sense?

Now that I'm confirmed to be on the right track with how my right arm is releasing and how my head/spine feels during this point, I'll play around with this and see how to get my shoulders working better.

I really am not understanding as a concept what my back arm should do. I realize there are a few different options that are good, but I feel like every time I try to do a different one I am doing it wrong after feedback but I don't know what to aim for. When I try to do a swim move my arm is dragging behind me, when I try to have the arm come through with me with some counter action then it's not swimming? Like in these pictures it looks to me that I bring my arm in to help with a weight shift in frames 1 and 2, in frame 3 it does a swim move counter to help the release, and in frame 4 it's just following through after release...it looks good to me because I don't know any better. I do realize that my left arm and shoulder will fundamentally change when I get a bit more forward so they aren't orbiting to the left.

Compared to Evelina, she is just beginning the countering action at the hit point, and the left arm has fully "swum" as the right arm has completely released and decelerated. I think it's similar to how before I thought that the disc release was near the end of the wrist extension...whereas now I'm realizing it's near the beginning of these arcs and the rest of the arcs happen after release and are just completed during follow through.

So conceptually I think I've been thinking the swim move should be completed too early, and fundamentally my shoulders/spine still aren't quite where they need to be.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think it's rooted in a lack of pendulum of the shoulder leveraged from the inside of your posture. Your front shoulder isn't coming back(or forward) low underneath the rear shoulder. The issue is probably actually in your hips/balance not moving in a way to allow that pendulum action(harder to see this action, easier to see it's manifestation in the shoulders). I think you will feel how you have to move your hips differently in Inside Swing Drill to pendulum the shoulder back.

Eveliina did the swim move between the first 2 frames. I highly recommend finding a pool and going through the swing with the rear arm forward like PP or Avery. I think your left arm move is hampered because of the lack of pendulum.

Watching Markus and Avery sequence the left arm with the plant here really helped me, arm forward into plant and then push/swim away after heel plant bringing the disc forward:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhQzVIX4cVs&t=42s

 

[RFrance]

Not sure on embed with vimeo, but here is my vimeo response:

https://vimeo.com/318297217

I had been keeping my left hand/arm on the top of my thigh but when I moved the position to more of the back side of the thigh the throw felt more balanced. I just looked at my video from practicing this on the patio and I can see that I'm getting the rear leg deweighted a lot better and with more tilted spiral. I'm sure this is due to changing the COG. I think SC said the arm weighs about 40 lbs so moving it a little can cause a big shift in the COG. This is great HUB!

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

I think SC said the arm weighs about 40 lbs so moving it a little can cause a big shift in the COG. This is great HUB!

You'd have to be an absolute monster to have 40 pound arms, but still I think it very much helps with balance and cues to a better lateral move.

 

[RFrance]

You'd have to be an absolute monster to have 40 pound arms, but still I think it very much helps with balance and cues to a better lateral move.

I just did a quick search. It's more like around 8 lbs to maybe 12 lbs for small person to large. (Could have swore SC said around 40 in one of his vids. )

 

[slowplastic]

So I can feel how to leverage the front shoulder underneath in the backswing, and it changes how that sets up the hips slightly. And you are right, that does make the inside swing drill feel much better and more natural. The strange thing is that having the backswing with more right shoulder underneath makes the arm slot coming forward higher...so unexpected to me. But I guess it just keeps the arm leveraged from the shoulders so they move together rather than get disconnected?

So this is an improvement for sure, the best my swing plane has looked. I'm resembling lots of video I see of people I want to copy. I can tell my head still moves a bit left in the behind view, but it is improved and my arm slot is improved.

In the side view shots, the 3rd one at 0:18 felt the best of those 3.

My left arm is coming through a bit later than the video from yesterday. I think it will keep looking better as I keep getting balanced better, rather than orbiting left/around during the swing.

So where is my balance off? Again I can see and feel improvement, but the direct feedback is extremely helpful in speeding up this process.

https://vimeo.com/318596123

https://vimeo.com/318596123^^^^^LINK

 

[Mocheez]

So I can feel how to leverage the front shoulder underneath in the backswing, and it changes how that sets up the hips slightly. And you are right, that does make the inside swing drill feel much better and more natural. The strange thing is that having the backswing with more right shoulder underneath makes the arm slot coming forward higher...so unexpected to me. But I guess it just keeps the arm leveraged from the shoulders so they move together rather than get disconnected?

That's what I was trying to get you to do when I posted this...

Try swinging your elbow really, really high. It will probably feel awkward at first but should allow you to get better power transfer between your shoulder and elbow.

Then you will know what you need to do with your shoulder to get into a lower swing plane.

 

[slowplastic]

That's what I was trying to get you to do when I posted this...

Different things click I guess...to me this difference actually feels like loading the shoulder down/under in the backswing, then I can move it more laterally forward when I plant. I think I just wasn't in the right position in the backswing to be able to get my "elbow up" in the forward swing without getting complete disconnection.

Is that looking decent to you now?

 

[Mocheez]

Different things click I guess...to me this difference actually feels like loading the shoulder down/under in the backswing, then I can move it more laterally forward when I plant. I think I just wasn't in the right position in the backswing to be able to get my "elbow up" in the forward swing without getting complete disconnection.

Is that looking decent to you now?

Yeah, I didn't explain it very well. I was trying to get you to feel a better connection with your elbow swinging higher and in line with the shoulder. Then in order to lower the swing plane, you have to drop your shoulder to maintain the same feeling. And yes, it looks way better than it did in September.

For the record, my form is horrible and I am sure you will be helping me quite a bit when I post a video in a few weeks.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah, I didn't explain it very well. I was trying to get you to feel a better connection with your elbow swinging higher and in line with the shoulder. Then in order to lower the swing plane, you have to drop your shoulder to maintain the same feeling. And yes, it looks way better than it did in September.

Ohh I see, working backwards. I can feel that now if I pendulum back underneath then swing/pendulum forward with high elbow, then can pendulum back underneath again, etc.

It's how it always is...can take any of 10-100 different ways for it to click the first time, but then when it does every other description or drill makes perfect sense.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

It's better today, but I think you're setup in your posture like you're throwing anhyzer and your head is tilting instead of lagging.

I think it's easier to exaggerate to be throwing a steep hyzer and get into the backwards telemark position, where you're way out over the knee. Then tilt the spine up a bit, feel the knee position need to change, then get to flat shot and the knee position changes again.

Right now you're so upright over the knee that you're limited in the amount of pressure you can resist. If I stood behind you and pushed forward on your back hip, I'd knock you over. In my pic, you could shove all you want - I'm going to resist your forward push.

I'll beat this drum again, visualize and recreate what you have to do in order to ski backwards and come into a hockey stop. The LAST thing to come through is your head in that action, as you're resisting in order:
1. toe down, heel down, instep, calf + thigh
2. then the upper body / arm / head come through.

I still think that you should do this on carpet, as you should be really resisting some momentum in your foot - and I'd probably slip on wood floors even in shoes if I was doing this move.

 

[sidewinder22]

I had been keeping my left hand/arm on the top of my thigh but when I moved the position to more of the back side of the thigh the throw felt more balanced. I just looked at my video from practicing this on the patio and I can see that I'm getting the rear leg deweighted a lot better and with more tilted spiral. I'm sure this is due to changing the COG. I think SC said the arm weighs about 40 lbs so moving it a little can cause a big shift in the COG. This is great HUB!

You'd have to be an absolute monster to have 40 pound arms, but still I think it very much helps with balance and cues to a better lateral move.

I just did a quick search. It's more like around 8 lbs to maybe 12 lbs for small person to large. (Could have swore SC said around 40 in one of his vids. )

25-40lbs for both arms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-douOneC40&t=1m50s

 

[sidewinder22]

I agree with HUB on the head tilted over and so it comes down over top the front side instead of the head tilted back and gliding upright on to the front leg and giving yourself more space and swing lag(head anchors the swing from the top of the spine, the head doesn't really lag). You can see in the finish you kind of jump upward from jamming over the top.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW-vWZgnNSk#t=1m
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D4_tDZjX1w&t=450s

 

[slowplastic]

This all makes a lot of sense. I was definitely pre-setting my head to where it would be paused in location during the swing...makes sense that happened off the left leg and it's so interesting that of course it's then aligned to the left leg during the swing.

I took a lot of swings, video, repeat, and made some changes. I could get my head aligned to the right leg, and eventually I started to feel my left shoulder swing to my plant foot, and the the left shoulder kind of go through where my right shoulder was. In the behind view it actually looks like that too, so I think this is a significant improvement.

I'm not sure if my leg is too vertical as HUB pointed out...if that messes with things. These shoes on the floor are fine I feel like for this swing pace...I trust them more than some local teepads.

I just included a couple of forehand swings to see how they looked in comparison, because they feel so much more compact and in constant leverage to me. But I can feel that same easy head balance and torso control.

https://vimeo.com/318644360

https://vimeo.com/318644360^^^^LINK

 

[sidewinder22]

Let your front shoulder swing back over the rear foot, and then over the front foot. Your swing center is still between your feet, instead of centering the backswing on the rear foot and forward swing on front foot.

 

[slowplastic]

Makes sense, and I definitely got away from that and have not had that feeling with this new leverage yet. I can see how you move laterally from backswing to forward swing.

Just want to double check...I can 100% see and feel my backswing is not over the left foot, but isn't my forward swing over the front foot? I realize this will also be a bit different when I load correctly then move laterally, swing, etc.

I can feel like that bow/archer markup that you post now much better than before. Like how you pull the string and then the bow moves to your front foot...makes sense much more obviously now with how it feels. The right shoulder underneath/load feeling helped, rather than how I'd been keeping my spine more vertical and turning more upright trying to maintain some plane.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think your trying to squat too much. If you watch my front leg in that vid it's much quieter and more stable.

 

[slowplastic]

I had to try this out so I went out to throw today. It's hard to stay narrow and reigned in compared to just swinging indoors, so I know what to keep working on...don't stride too far, load shoulder then laterally move shoulder, land with head aligned, etc.

But it's definitely an improvement. It was freezing out and winds 10-15MPH, not very nice. I definitely had a velocity bump, when throwing mids and fairways I was about a disc class farther than I should have been, compared to throwing mid season/summer. For example when I wanted to throw a Felon on a 315'ish flat to fade/skip line it went 350' instead. Mids were going 30' long regularly. I was able to easily throw putters standstill 290-310', lots of leverage on the disc and it gets out there FAST. When putters and mids hit the ground they were still moving.

The velocity is the big thing I noticed, when I was throwing in a tailwind I was able to flip my neutral/understable high speed stuff more than I normally would in calm, and in headwind I was flipping my Felon and Force all the way over instead of them drifting. So I definitely got a few more MPH and I can feel how to trust that shoulder load. It'll take some repetition but it's great to see a difference in flights.

It does feel weird how my head stays kind of sideways and the arm unloads, feels more closed than before. On video it still doesn't look crazy closed though, so I guess it'll just keep being an adjustment.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Yes! Very glad to hear the positive results. It's mostly noticeable in my back foot. I got pretty good at half shifting onto my front side, which works better than nothing - but it left so much of my momentum on the table (only catching it effectively AFTER the disc was gone).

This feeling started clicking hardest once I started doing the perpetual motion drill, then the down shift from the windmill helped alignment and back toes, and then the battering ram pulled it together with the direction of shifting.

Truthfully, the best thing for me mentally was thinking of the backwards telemark ski stop. If you think in that framework- speed of the turn is terrible for your ability to bury your downhill ski and dig into the snow. It's all about loading in behind the ski so that you can bury the inside edge once it's perpdicular to the slope below you. Once I see the throw through this lens, I see it so vividly in Langstrom, Eagle, Simon and Nybo.

Once you can get the disc loaded at center chest with that back knee under your hip: that momentum is coming out the arm on the disc. It feels like a much slower throw with your body, and a crazy amount of arm unloading.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Yes! Very glad to hear the positive results. It's mostly noticeable in my back foot. I got pretty good at half shifting onto my front side, which works better than nothing - but it left so much of my momentum on the table (only catching it effectively AFTER the disc was gone).

This feeling started clicking hardest once I started doing the perpetual motion drill, then the down shift from the windmill helped alignment and back toes, and then the battering ram pulled it together with the direction of shifting.

Truthfully, the best thing for me mentally was thinking of the backwards telemark ski stop. If you think in that framework- speed of the turn is terrible for your ability to bury your downhill ski and dig into the snow. It's all about loading in behind the ski so that you can bury the inside edge once it's perpdicular to the slope below you. Once I see the throw through this lens, I see it so vividly in Langstrom, Eagle, Simon and Nybo.

Once you can get the disc loaded at center chest with that back knee under your hip: that momentum is coming out the arm on the disc. It feels like a much slower throw with your body, and a crazy amount of arm unloading.

Any similar analogies for us southern folk who never saw snow until age 24?
BTW I agree, the battering ram is awesome.