Well, this thread certainly had potential. :\
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A TD's solution to litter!
- Thread starter MikePinchico
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 15,864
Personally, I'd support a stroke for littering, but to PhattD's point: rules are rules.
While I understand and agree with the logic of warning players up front during the players' meeting, I'm not sure from a PDGA enforcement point of view, it would or should legitimately count as a 1st warning.
As written, the rules essentially allow for a 1st offense on a courstey violation, with essentially no more harm than a warning and a do over (the foot fault rule, for instance). Strictly speaking, all players are within their right to violate the rule once with what is essentially a warning with no effect on score.
As Martin said: in an unsanctioned event, the TD possesses the One Ring To Rule Them All (so to speak). But if it's a sanctioned event, I think a player stroked for a single ocurrence of littering has a legitmate case for appeal, or whatever remedy they might be able to seek under PDGA guidelines.
Until the PDGA wants to call littering a rules violation where any offense is automatically a stroke, rather than a courtesy violation, where a first offense is a warning, and only subsequent violations are a stroke, then even if everyone is warned up front about littering, I don't think you can stroke someone for a first offense.
Reality is some people make a conscious effort to avoid litter. Others don't. Such a rule would help ensure that everyone playing makes a conscious effort, rather than a passive one (or none at all).
So the question is: How do we get the PDGA to change the rule?
While I understand and agree with the logic of warning players up front during the players' meeting, I'm not sure from a PDGA enforcement point of view, it would or should legitimately count as a 1st warning.
As written, the rules essentially allow for a 1st offense on a courstey violation, with essentially no more harm than a warning and a do over (the foot fault rule, for instance). Strictly speaking, all players are within their right to violate the rule once with what is essentially a warning with no effect on score.
As Martin said: in an unsanctioned event, the TD possesses the One Ring To Rule Them All (so to speak). But if it's a sanctioned event, I think a player stroked for a single ocurrence of littering has a legitmate case for appeal, or whatever remedy they might be able to seek under PDGA guidelines.
Until the PDGA wants to call littering a rules violation where any offense is automatically a stroke, rather than a courtesy violation, where a first offense is a warning, and only subsequent violations are a stroke, then even if everyone is warned up front about littering, I don't think you can stroke someone for a first offense.
Reality is some people make a conscious effort to avoid litter. Others don't. Such a rule would help ensure that everyone playing makes a conscious effort, rather than a passive one (or none at all).
So the question is: How do we get the PDGA to change the rule?
Personally, I think we should all just go with the PDGA rules. I do however appreciate any attempts to enforce and spread awareness about littering. It's really frustrating to see how many people don't care. I'd be happy to see the PDGA ruling changed to disqualification for littering.
Since it's a courtesy violation, yes, they get a warning on the first offense. But then they get stroked for ANY other courtesy violation. Example:
Litter - warning
Swears and yells at people issuing warning - stroke
Litter - warning
Swears and yells at people issuing warning - stroke
MikePinchico
Double Eagle Member
I think the pre warning makes people know that I am serious about keeping the course clean. I'm not trying to be a dick. I spend so much time keeping courses clean and I get compliments from out of town players. I just find it sad that some of you are just cool with the fact that some people litter (or they should get a warning for leaving trash). WEAK! Take pride in your course and hold other people accountable for trashing our sacred spaces!
It was an analogy. :| I was trying to indicate a parallel to the littering infraction, not to make you seem stupid. Just in case, better attack first, eh? How Machiavellian.
Except that the infractions aren't exactly parallel, nowhere in the law is it written that you must have a warning before you can be penalized for speeding. You can and will get fined for the first infraction. On the other hand, it is possible that you recive multiple warnings before actually recieving a ticket. Broken analogy.
I think the type of person that will blatantly litter, isn't going to be the type of person that is going to care about a few extra strokes here and there.
I think the type of person that will blatantly litter, isn't going to be the type of person that is going to care about a few extra strokes here and there.
A TD might contend that littering is also a violation of a local law, ordinance, or park rule, and as such within the TD's discretion to DQ.
The player's defense would be that the closest applicable rule is the specific wording that says littering is a courtesy violation.
I'm not sure how it would play out upon appeal, but for a TD trying to crack down on littering, and willing to follow through, this might be worth a try.
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Personally, I can think of a private course owner who would like to do DNA testing on cigarette butts, then skip the DQ step and move right on to the "banned for life".
The player's defense would be that the closest applicable rule is the specific wording that says littering is a courtesy violation.
I'm not sure how it would play out upon appeal, but for a TD trying to crack down on littering, and willing to follow through, this might be worth a try.
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Personally, I can think of a private course owner who would like to do DNA testing on cigarette butts, then skip the DQ step and move right on to the "banned for life".
It is great that you want to be vigilant about litter, but "pre-warning" is not allowed by PDGA rules.
As stated by others, you will get better results by encouraging the players to pick up trash rather than trying to punish them for littering. Offering a prize(s) to the card or player that brings back the most trash results in a win-win for everyone. This also lets everyone know you are serious about keeping the course clean. This seems to work better during league when players are more willing to carry trash bags.
However, none of this will prevent all the non-tourney players from littering, so there will still be plenty of work needed to keep the course clean.
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2012
- Messages
- 2,861
jeverett
Double Eagle Member
I agree with the above. Switching over to educational psychology for a minute, it has been demonstrated over and over again that 'positive reinforcement' (rewarding a desired behavior) is more effective at changing behavior long-term than 'positive punishment' (applying a penalty to an unwanted behavior).
chain_ape7
Birdie Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2012
- Messages
- 257
I always just pick up litter on whatever course I play.....only takes a second...and makes for some good disc golf Karma. Especially before I place my marker on an upshot or a putt I'll pick up a cigarette butt or bottle top...the guys in my group or on my card will roll their eyes or snicker. Then I'll make some crazy, lucky-ass shot. No real, tangible science to back this up....but it works sometimes and also helps keep a course clean. I get so much enjoyment from disc golf that I feel obligated to balance things somehow. For you doubters out there...try to pick up just a few extra pieces of litter on each round you play. Who doesn't need a little extra luck during a round?
TempleOfDoom
Eagle Member
Is littering against the law? Well, then DQ the SOB.
From the rulebook section 3.3 Player Misconduct.
Activities which are in violation of Federal, State or Local laws or ordinances, park regulation or disc golf course rule. Tournament Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct. An official warning prior to disqualification may be issued by a Tournament Director where appropriate.
From the rulebook section 3.3 Player Misconduct.
Activities which are in violation of Federal, State or Local laws or ordinances, park regulation or disc golf course rule. Tournament Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct. An official warning prior to disqualification may be issued by a Tournament Director where appropriate.
Also, don't categorize or prioritize the litter.
A bottle cap, cigarette butt, pop can, beer bottle, are all equally obtrusive litter
A bottle cap, cigarette butt, pop can, beer bottle, are all equally obtrusive litter
