Bradley Williams suspension reduced

[bnbanbury]

Here is the original letter inviting folks to the PDGA:

 

[dashiellx]

Like has been apparent in these discussions before there is an obvious difference in opinion on the severity BW received among this board and its posters. What pertains to this new discussion is the notion of transparency and consistency in regard for the few who make their living disc golfing. By arbitrarily dropping part of the sentence, the BOD's stance looks even less defensible IMO.

Severity of the discipline received is irrelevant really. Earlier you stated that it was the loss of BW's ability to compete at all was what you found to be irritating.

 

[pearlybakerbest]

Severity of the discipline received is irrelevant really. Earlier you stated that it was the loss of BW's ability to compete at all was what you found to be irritating.

It is irritating to me that the loss of such a solid competitor would be the result of process that is nontransparent and inconsistent.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Amateur play started before 1985. Here are a few quotes from Ted Smethers, PDGA Commish in his Fall 1984 report to the Board from the January 1985 Disc Golf News.

• "There will never be a "professional" group of disc golfers if there is not a much larger group of amateur disc golfers."
• "I think we can all recognize that it with tongue in cheek that we call ourselves 'professionals'. I am not advocating we change our name or our mission."
• "We have organized into a professionally oriented group to do the things necessary to raise the stature of disc golf."

 

[lyleoross]

Here is the original letter inviting folks to the PDGA:

I'm trying to figure out if your name is Lyle too, or if this is one of the best practical jokes I've seen in a long time. Either way kudos. Kudos for the keeping this letter if it's real, or kudos for the effort on the joke!

 

[ru4por]

I speed because I dislike being in a car, I feel like I'm wasting time doing nothing at all but transporting my meat-sack body around. I consistently drive 5-10 miles per hour over the speed limit because of that. Where I know there are cameras I am extremely careful to remain under 11 miles over, since that's where they're set to register and catch you. Same with school zones - less than 5 over because that's where those cameras are set. I know I can get away with it, and I feel like I'm wasting my time.

If there were cameras set more strictly at more corners or all corners - I wouldn't speed.

And when cars get to the point where they are automated to the level that I don't have to pay attention to the road, I'll feel perfectly okay with my car going the speed limit because I will be able to get **** done while I'm sitting there.

On a side note: I've been curious how long it'd take the police to pull me over for expired tags so I have kept my new tags in my glove box. Just yesterday was followed for 1.5 miles, no flash. Been six months in a week.

Given you are using a highway, traveling 80MPH, or ten over. You realize that your destination will be reached about 6 minutes quicker over an hour of travel.

In your life, six minutes is that valuable?

Nevermind, reading the last part of your post, kind of explains quite a bit.

 

[lyleoross]

Like has been apparent in these discussions before there is an obvious difference in opinion on the severity BW received among this board and its posters. What pertains to this new discussion is the notion of transparency and consistency in regard for the few who make their living disc golfing. By arbitrarily dropping part of the sentence, the BOD's stance looks even less defensible IMO.

I'd like to keep the two issues, transparency and BW separate.

Transparency, I think what has been written above is reasonably clear and strongly argues that there needs to be some better communication and documentation, that has nothing to do with BW.

I'm am a semi BW fan. I live in Texas and like to support local players. BW earned what he got, the old fashioned way.

Remember when you were a kid and you acted out and mom said, "alright, knock it off." Sometimes you ignored her and kept at it and she said, "you're really askin' for it bud." If you ignored that warning and kept at it, you typically got, "alright, let's go have a conversation in the bed room," swats included.

The things BW did were stupid, and none of them were onerous or received much punishment. By much punishment, I mean he got six months and by past standards, that was necessary. Today, that probably is onerous, given the nature of where the sport has gone. When the punishments were laid down, and a local area might have two or three events in six months, they really weren't that bad. To have any teeth at all, you had to cover a number of months. A one month ban where there are no events in that month means exactly zero to the recipient. To be clear, when I ran the DC this discussion of length occured and this info was part of it. There were only a few Pros traveling at that time and it was necessary to have enough length to impact the player in a meaningful way. I'd be shocked if someone told me that MTL and the Board aren't revisiting this issue.

But I agree that a body that examines touring pros and their punishments, is necessary. What works for a local pro is too much for a traveling pro in today's touring environment. Punishments based on events registered for or events in a players region or some such is appropriate IMO.

The reason why BWs punishment ended up being over a year is that after he got a telling off, he insisted and repeated his performance. He was allowed off the hook more than once. "Okay, we get you're sincere, well transfer your ban to a probation, but keep your nose clean." Uh, no, he couldn't do that. If you're cut slack twice, and you do a repeat performance, it's a bit much to ask for leniency or to cry foul.

Yes, I want guys of BWs caliber touring. No, he wasn't mistreated. He's shown a remarkable lack of self-control, whether it's his fault or not. It falls on him to figure out a solution and he has shown zero ability to do that, repeatedly acting out at events. I would agree, based on his status as a touring Pro that something less is warranted, but that has been granted, more than once, with probation.

The greater issue of standards that apply to different types of players and clarity in communication is just common sense. It's good business.

That said, everything the PDGA did in terms of BW was above board. He's been given a ton of leniency and everything has been published up front. He has a ton of documentation himself. You'll note, he's not publishing that material. That argues he wants his privacy and agrees with the PDGA that everything should not be put to the public.

 

[pearlybakerbest]

I'd like to keep the two issues, transparency and BW separate.

Transparency, I think what has been written above is reasonably clear and strongly argues that there needs to be some better communication and documentation, that has nothing to do with BW.

I'm am a semi BW fan. I live in Texas and like to support local players. BW earned what he got, the old fashioned way.

Remember when you were a kid and you acted out and mom said, "alright, knock it off." Sometimes you ignored her and kept at it and she said, "you're really askin' for it bud." If you ignored that warning and kept at it, you typically got, "alright, let's go have a conversation in the bed room," swats included.

The things BW did were stupid, and none of them were onerous or received much punishment. By much punishment, I mean he got six months and by past standards, that was necessary. Today, that probably is onerous, given the nature of where the sport has gone. When the punishments were laid down, and a local area might have two or three events in six months, they really weren't that bad. To have any teeth at all, you had to cover a number of months. A one month ban where there are no events in that month means exactly zero to the recipient. To be clear, when I ran the DC this discussion of length occured and this info was part of it. There were only a few Pros traveling at that time and it was necessary to have enough length to impact the player in a meaningful way. I'd be shocked if someone told me that MTL and the Board aren't revisiting this issue.

But I agree that a body that examines touring pros and their punishments, is necessary. What works for a local pro is too much for a traveling pro in today's touring environment. Punishments based on events registered for or events in a players region or some such is appropriate IMO.

The reason why BWs punishment ended up being over a year is that after he got a telling off, he insisted and repeated his performance. He was allowed off the hook more than once. "Okay, we get you're sincere, well transfer your ban to a probation, but keep your nose clean." Uh, no, he couldn't do that. If you're cut slack twice, and you do a repeat performance, it's a bit much to ask for leniency or to cry foul.

Yes, I want guys of BWs caliber touring. No, he wasn't mistreated. He's shown a remarkable lack of self-control, whether it's his fault or not. It falls on him to figure out a solution and he has shown zero ability to do that, repeatedly acting out at events. I would agree, based on his status as a touring Pro that something less is warranted, but that has been granted, more than once, with probation.

The greater issue of standards that apply to different types of players and clarity in communication is just common sense. It's good business.

That said, everything the PDGA did in terms of BW was above board. He's been given a ton of leniency and everything has been published up front. He has a ton of documentation himself. You'll note, he's not publishing that material. That argues he wants his privacy and agrees with the PDGA that everything should not be put to the public.

I agree with all of this. To put my thoughts in context, I will refer to the Cam Todd BHMO instance. Cam had a reputation for the type of behavior that warranted his suspension, from those I've heard from it wasn't a matter of if, but when he would act out. He boils over and takes it too far, but is still allowed back for the USDGC after showing a willingness to work on himself and to donate his winnings. This plays out in a matter of months, and seems like fair recourse leading to reinstatement. IMO something much more akin to this would have better suited the BW incident. Forcing a player out for a year+ seems more retribution than rehabilitation.

 

[lyleoross]

I agree with all of this. To put my thoughts in context, I will refer to the Cam Todd BHMO instance. Cam had a reputation for the type of behavior that warranted his suspension, from those I've heard from it wasn't a matter of if, but when he would act out. He boils over and takes it too far, but is still allowed back for the USDGC after showing a willingness to work on himself and to donate his winnings. This plays out in a matter of months, and seems like fair recourse leading to reinstatement. IMO something much more akin to this would have better suited the BW incident. Forcing a player out for a year+ seems more retribution than rehabilitation.

I'm not as familiar with the Cam Todd as some, I came in after. But it did seem like he pissed someone off based on the punishment. The image that some strove for was unnecessary IMO.

 

[JC17393]

I agree with all of this. To put my thoughts in context, I will refer to the Cam Todd BHMO instance. Cam had a reputation for the type of behavior that warranted his suspension, from those I've heard from it wasn't a matter of if, but when he would act out. He boils over and takes it too far, but is still allowed back for the USDGC after showing a willingness to work on himself and to donate his winnings. This plays out in a matter of months, and seems like fair recourse leading to reinstatement. IMO something much more akin to this would have better suited the BW incident. Forcing a player out for a year+ seems more retribution than rehabilitation.

The trouble with comparing the Todd incident to the Williams incident is that Cam's was the first incident for which he was disciplined. While Cam had the rep as a hot-head, he'd never gone so far as he did with the BHMO incident, which necessitated action by the PDGA. Meanwhile, Williams had been disciplined for various infractions and was on probation when this latest incident occurred.

The biggest thing to come out of the Todd suspension/change of discipline was that the PDGA's initial approach to disciplining players was a tad outdated or inappropriate for this case. (i.e. the assumption that players were playing events every few weeks as a hobby rather than as a full time vocation) A lot of the PDGA discipline procedures and processes were defined and refined as a result of what happened with Cam. It was those procedures and processes that determined Williams' fate.

If Williams had been a first time offender, or even if he'd successfully completed his prior probationary period, I think he'd have been treated differently than he was. But those factors can't be ignored in calling his 18 month (commuted to 12 month) suspension as "too harsh".

 

[biscoe]

. What works for a local pro is too much for a traveling pro in today's touring environment. Punishments based on events registered for or events in a players region or some such is appropriate IMO.

I disagree- the players on tour have made themselves (whether they like it or not) the public face of the game. They have the most to gain from it growing and should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us if anything.

 

[biscoe]

I agree with all of this. To put my thoughts in context, I will refer to the Cam Todd BHMO instance. Cam had a reputation for the type of behavior that warranted his suspension, from those I've heard from it wasn't a matter of if, but when he would act out. He boils over and takes it too far, but is still allowed back for the USDGC after showing a willingness to work on himself and to donate his winnings. This plays out in a matter of months, and seems like fair recourse leading to reinstatement. IMO something much more akin to this would have better suited the BW incident. Forcing a player out for a year+ seems more retribution than rehabilitation.

I know Cam a bit and like him just fine but I was 100% opposed to the mitigation of his punishment. Effectively they let him pay his way out of it whether the money went to a charity or not. I also think that having the Lizard Lawyer threatening the PDGA had more to do with the result than did any desire on the part of the organization to see him better himself.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Given you are using a highway, traveling 80MPH, or ten over. You realize that your destination will be reached about 6 minutes quicker over an hour of travel.

In your life, six minutes is that valuable?

Nevermind, reading the last part of your post, kind of explains quite a bit.

It's six minutes I could be doing something more valuable than sitting on my ass doing nothing but transporting my body around. So... yep. Not like I'm not a cautious driver. I may speed, but considering the quality of the roads: I'm not reckless. And using the highway driving 10 over is 70, not 80.

I could always do as many of my peers seem to enjoy doing: sit there and respond to an eMail while driving, instead of doing that after I finish traversing the distance.

 

[Dr.Smooth]

so we can thank cam todd for the bw outcome? interesting.. will bw ever win a world's is the real question.

 

[lyleoross]

I disagree- the players on tour have made themselves (whether they like it or not) the public face of the game. They have the most to gain from it growing and should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us if anything.

Along with the nice button, there should be a harsh button.

I get your point, but the original six month penalty was assumed to cover approx three events, IIRC. You're now way beyond that with BW. I agree that he's asked for it and giving extra is warranted. Within reason. I'll have to consider the higher standard thing. In the context of image yes, but in the name of equity, not sure your'e on solid ground.

 

[lyleoross]

so we can thank cam todd for the bw outcome? interesting.. will bw ever win a world's is the real question.

Cam Todd was the first time a touring Pro get into big trouble. They made a lot of hay out of the situation.

 

[air show]

It's six minutes I could be doing something more valuable than sitting on my ass doing nothing but transporting my body around. So... yep. Not like I'm not a cautious driver. I may speed, but considering the quality of the roads: I'm not reckless. And using the highway driving 10 over is 70, not 80.

I could always do as many of my peers seem to enjoy doing: sit there and respond to an eMail while driving, instead of doing that after I finish traversing the distance.

Find a vehicle you like to drive and you will be glad to have the extra six minutes.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Find a vehicle you like to drive and you will be glad to have the extra six minutes.

Not everybody enjoys driving. I can not tell you how excited I am to see society transition away from everybody driving to automated vehicles dominating the roads. That decade can't come soon enough for me.

 

[brutalbrutus]

It's six minutes I could be doing something more valuable than sitting on my ass doing nothing but transporting my body around. So... yep. Not like I'm not a cautious driver. I may speed, but considering the quality of the roads: I'm not reckless. And using the highway driving 10 over is 70, not 80.

I could always do as many of my peers seem to enjoy doing: sit there and respond to an eMail while driving, instead of doing that after I finish traversing the distance.

Find a vehicle you like to drive and you will be glad to have the extra six minutes.

Not everybody enjoys driving. I can not tell you how excited I am to see society transition away from everybody driving to automated vehicles dominating the roads. That decade can't come soon enough for me.

Air show, people in Ohio cant drive for ****. So, its also six minutes less you have to worry about the other moro... I mean people:\, driving and their ability to not crash into you...

 

[Lazerface]

I think Brad should be nominated for a spirit award.