Bradley Williams suspension reduced

[bwgort]

But that's what the rule book is. It lays out what you can and can't do. Beyond that it's the law. When I ran the DC all the infractions but one were in the rule book. The one that wasn't, a player shot another player with a high power air gun. I don't think that is covered in the rule book.

Paul was playing politics. Quite well thank you. But it isn't hard. Don't break the rules, don't break the law. BW broke the rules. More than once. He drank, he abused equipment and he took a chunk out of another player during a round. Other players saw it and reported it. He did it on probation. So they reinstated the old punishment and added on the new. It's just math.

It lays out what you can and can't do on the course. It does not lay out what you can and cant do off the course. Since the PDGA has suspended people for off the course infractions, it seems logical that it would be necessary to officially clarify when that situation can occur so that players can understand.

 

[_MTL_]

Even worse, for people whose livelihoods depend on whether they can play tournaments, they need to be able to understand what they can and can't do off the course.

Follow the law. Follow the rules.

It's honestly that simple.

 

[bwgort]

Follow the law. Follow the rules.

It's honestly that simple.

You're skirting the issue. When two people break the law and only one is suspended by the PDGA, we need the PDGA to clarify why that happens.

 

[_MTL_]

You're skirting the issue. When two people break the law and only one is suspended by the PDGA, we need the PDGA to clarify why that happens.

I'm not skirting the issue at all - rather I'm saying my committee only deals directly with infractions that happen at PDGA events.

And the best way to avoid dealing with any discipline is follow the law and follow the rules.

 

[bwgort]

I'm not skirting the issue at all - rather I'm saying my committee only deals directly with infractions that happen at PDGA events.

And the best way to avoid dealing with any discipline is follow the law and follow the rules.

Ok, so I guess I should assume that since the PDGA suspends people off the course for "behavior inconsistent with PDGA image," if you are arrested and the PDGA does not suspend you, then that behavior was consistent with PDGA image?


And sometimes players that get arrested have notes in the BOD meeting minutes that say "Indefinite suspension until legal matters are finalized." And sometimes players that get arrested don't have those same notes in the BOD meeting minutes.

I'm just trying to get clarity and the further I look the more unfair this process seems.

 

[93EXCivic]

I thought people sped to get to the donut shop before they ran out?

People speed because they won't get caught comes at it from the wrong angle. People speed cause they're in a hurry, or because they aren't paying attention, or they're fighting with their spouse.

Cheating here is the same. They don't think about the consequence, they think about the out come, or they don't think at all cause they're mad. Rarely do people think, okay, I shouldn't do this cause the consequences are bad.

Or cause they are on a fun twisty road in a fun car. I mean I would never speed....

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

 

[_MTL_]

Ok, so I guess I should assume that since the PDGA suspends people off the course for "behavior inconsistent with PDGA image," if you are arrested and the PDGA does not suspend you, then that behavior was consistent with PDGA image?


And sometimes players that get arrested have notes in the BOD meeting minutes that say "Indefinite suspension until legal matters are finalized." And sometimes players that get arrested don't have those same notes in the BOD meeting minutes.

I'm just trying to get clarity and the further I look the more unfair this process seems.

You are obviously talking about Layland and Anthon.

I'm not in any way trying to sound like I'm avoiding the issue, rather it's just not something I can speak about. I had nothing to do with either situation.

 

[bwgort]

You are obviously talking about Layland and Anthon.

I'm not in any way trying to sound like I'm avoiding the issue, rather it's just not something I can speak about. I had nothing to do with either situation.

I didn't try and hide it. Didn't think you had anything to do with either situation but can you see why clarity is needed?

Also, I'm 100% sure anthon isn't the only touring pro to be arrested and not have his name appear in the BOD meeting minutes/not get suspended pending outcome of legal matters.

 

[lyleoross]

I don't know what happened in the non event sanctions, but I would agree, typically the PDGA has no discretion there. It is easy enough though. Add a rule:. In the case where a player is charged with a felony they are suspended from the PDGA until that charge is resolved. Assuming of course that we agree that being charged with a felony is worthy of temporary suspension?

Is there anyone here who actually has a problem with the PDGA suspending a player charged with a felony?

 

[zj1002]

I don't know whether it is the DC or just the "PDGA" but there have been people that were suspended from the PDGA for off-course infractions. There have been people that have committed off the course infractions that have not been suspended by the PDGA. The rulebook does not make it clear when the PDGA will suspend people based on their off-course actions.

I appreciate your responses but I think you can see that for the people without "inside knowledge" of the DC, this vagueness is confusing. Even worse, for people whose livelihoods depend on whether they can play tournaments, they need to be able to understand what they can and can't do off the course.

I think they know if they published something for off-course infractions then a lot of their previous big names like Climo and Nikko would be suspended for drug arrests. And then they would have to theoretically require testing to some degree. To me its another reason there should be a separate pro tour body from the PDGA because the PDGA as a "volunteer organization" can't handle testing 20-30k active players at a time.

 

[bwgort]

I don't know what happened in the non event sanctions, but I would agree, typically the PDGA has no discretion there. It is easy enough though. Add a rule:. In the case where a player is charged with a felony they are suspended from the PDGA until that charge is resolved. Assuming of course that we agree that being charged with a felony is worthy of temporary suspension?

Is there anyone here who actually has a problem with the PDGA suspending a player charged with a felony?

No, but I do have a problem with the PDGA cherrypicking felony suspensions and choosing to single certain players out over other players.

 

[lyleoross]

BTW, I happen to agree with those suspensions. Doing harm to someone through assault, lethal or not shouldn't be an issue. Having a player charged with such play in an event makes us look bad. However, I'm reasonably sure that wasn't Paul's concern.

 

[lyleoross]

No, but I do have a problem with the PDGA cherrypicking felony suspensions and choosing to single certain players out over other players.

Your gonna have to give me examples. My impression is that they've been pretty consistent. I find it hard to think that someone on the DC took out a grudge and the Board and Director let that slide. That's why it isn't a one person process.

 

[bwgort]

Your gonna have to give me examples. My impression is that they've been pretty consistent. I find it hard to think that someone on the DC took out a grudge and the Board and Director let that slide. That's why it isn't a one person process.

MTL and ZJ named the names I was thinking of. I'm not going to speculate about what offenses were committed. You should be able to figure everything out with some google searches.

 

[JC17393]

Ok, so I guess I should assume that since the PDGA suspends people off the course for "behavior inconsistent with PDGA image," if you are arrested and the PDGA does not suspend you, then that behavior was consistent with PDGA image?

Of course it's not. But if the PDGA isn't involved with the behavior, why do they need to get involved?

If I'm arrested tomorrow for DUI, I'm not making headlines. And even if I were (locally, presumably), they're not going to identify me as a pro disc golfer or reference the PDGA in any way. So what need would the PDGA have to get involved with it? It may not be behavior "consistent with PDGA image" but it also is behavior that in no way involved the PDGA image at all.

However, if I'm arrested on Saturday evening for DUI while on my way home from a PDGA tournament, and I'm identified as a PDGA player in transit from a PDGA event where, presumably, I got too drunk/high to drive, the PDGA's image is now involved. They're within their rights at that point to discipline me as a PDGA member.

That's the difference between Layland and Anthon. Layland was arrested on his way to/from (can't remember) a PDGA tournament. All the news items about it mentioned that fact and that he was a PDGA player. That involved the PDGA whether they liked it or not, so they acted.

Anthon's incident did not occur at a disc golf tournament or in transit to/from one. Nothing, to my recollection, that was published about it mentioned he was a professional disc golfer or a member of the PDGA. There was no association whatsoever made between Anthon and the PDGA at all. So the PDGA didn't get involved.

I'm not sure the PDGA needs to be making policy to distinguish where their influence applies and where it doesn't. They're not going to insert themselves into anything that doesn't otherwise involve them. But if they're involved, their hand is forced.

 

[BionicRib]

Of course it's not. But if the PDGA isn't involved with the behavior, why do they need to get involved?

If I'm arrested tomorrow for DUI, I'm not making headlines. And even if I were (locally, presumably), they're not going to identify me as a pro disc golfer or reference the PDGA in any way. So what need would the PDGA have to get involved with it? It may not be behavior "consistent with PDGA image" but it also is behavior that in no way involved the PDGA image at all.

However, if I'm arrested on Saturday evening for DUI while on my way home from a PDGA tournament, and I'm identified as a PDGA player in transit from a PDGA event where, presumably, I got too drunk/high to drive, the PDGA's image is now involved. They're within their rights at that point to discipline me as a PDGA member.

That's the difference between Layland and Anthon. Layland was arrested on his way to/from (can't remember) a PDGA tournament. All the news items about it mentioned that fact and that he was a PDGA player. That involved the PDGA whether they liked it or not, so they acted.

Anthon's incident did not occur at a disc golf tournament or in transit to/from one. Nothing, to my recollection, that was published about it mentioned he was a professional disc golfer or a member of the PDGA. There was no association whatsoever made between Anthon and the PDGA at all. So the PDGA didn't get involved.

I'm not sure the PDGA needs to be making policy to distinguish where their influence applies and where it doesn't. They're not going to insert themselves into anything that doesn't otherwise involve them. But if they're involved, their hand is forced.

I agree with this, but if the pdga was as popular as the nfl there is no way the pdga could not get involved with off the course incidents in today's society.

 

[lyleoross]

MTL and ZJ named the names I was thinking of. I'm not going to speculate about what offenses were committed. You should be able to figure everything out with some google searches.

Thanks. I would say that JCs post summarizes how I feel. But I will grant your point. I would write a general rule as I laid out above. Then you have no issues. But I'm also just a member with no sway.

You also mentioned rules violations that were handled differently, player to player. Do you know of any specific instances?

 

[JC17393]

I agree with this, but if the pdga was as popular as the nfl there is no way the pdga could not get involved with off the course incidents in today's society.

Well, if the PDGA were to be as popular as the NFL, would there be off-the-course incidents for which they wouldn't be identified? By which I mean, if the PDGA is a household org and PDGA events are on ESPN or NBC or whatever on a regular basis, could a PDGA player be arrested without making headlines that tie the player directly to the PDGA? I'd guess no. Their hand would be forced more often than not.

 

[pearlybakerbest]

Of course it's not. But if the PDGA isn't involved with the behavior, why do they need to get involved?

If I'm arrested tomorrow for DUI, I'm not making headlines. And even if I were (locally, presumably), they're not going to identify me as a pro disc golfer or reference the PDGA in any way. So what need would the PDGA have to get involved with it? It may not be behavior "consistent with PDGA image" but it also is behavior that in no way involved the PDGA image at all.

However, if I'm arrested on Saturday evening for DUI while on my way home from a PDGA tournament, and I'm identified as a PDGA player in transit from a PDGA event where, presumably, I got too drunk/high to drive, the PDGA's image is now involved. They're within their rights at that point to discipline me as a PDGA member.

That's the difference between Layland and Anthon. Layland was arrested on his way to/from (can't remember) a PDGA tournament. All the news items about it mentioned that fact and that he was a PDGA player. That involved the PDGA whether they liked it or not, so they acted.

Anthon's incident did not occur at a disc golf tournament or in transit to/from one. Nothing, to my recollection, that was published about it mentioned he was a professional disc golfer or a member of the PDGA. There was no association whatsoever made between Anthon and the PDGA at all. So the PDGA didn't get involved.

I'm not sure the PDGA needs to be making policy to distinguish where their influence applies and where it doesn't. They're not going to insert themselves into anything that doesn't otherwise involve them. But if they're involved, their hand is forced.

In the account I read online Anthon was clearly identified as a professional disc golfer. IIRC, so were Climo and Goodpasture in the online news. I can see where Layland earning an action from the PDGA would seem "cherry-picked" as Gort points out.

 

[lyleoross]

In the account I read online Anthon was clearly identified as a professional disc golfer. IIRC, so were Climo and Goodpasture in the online news. I can see where Layland earning an action from the PDGA would seem "cherry-picked" as Gort points out.

I suspect that the difference is that Anthon didn't identify himself as a "professional disc golfer," but rather was identified by writers as such.

Regardless, the solution is simple, a hard fast rule. If a player is involved in a felony arrest they are suspended from the PDGA until the resolution of that charge.

Frankly, if you're arrested for a felony, you have bigger problems than your status with the PDGA. People on DGCR will talk about you endlessly.