• Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
    It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)

Bradley Williams suspension reduced

I would suspect the PDGA has a strong bias toward players not getting into legal trouble, whether or not they are identified or identify (at the moment of arrest) as professional disc golfers. A suspension for off-course issues makes sense as a deterrent against future issues, whether on or off the course. I can't really believe I'm writing that as I really don't feel that athletes --as workers -- should be held to standards that most workers are not held to (I wouldn't be suspended from my job for a DUI, were that to happen). But, from a brand protection perspective (yuck), it makes sense.

As for publishing the punishment matrix, I don't know of any sport that does that. Unions might have a say in such processes though. Ball golf is notorious for being secretive about off-course violations and related punishments.
 
Regardless, the solution is simple, a hard fast rule. If a player is involved in a felony arrest they are suspended from the PDGA until the resolution of that charge.

What means would you use to find out who's been charged with a felony?
 
I would suspect the PDGA has a strong bias toward players not getting into legal trouble, whether or not they are identified or identify (at the moment of arrest) as professional disc golfers. A suspension for off-course issues makes sense as a deterrent against future issues, whether on or off the course. I can't really believe I'm writing that as I really don't feel that athletes --as workers -- should be held to standards that most workers are not held to (I wouldn't be suspended from my job for a DUI, were that to happen). But, from a brand protection perspective (yuck), it makes sense.

As for publishing the punishment matrix, I don't know of any sport that does that. Unions might have a say in such processes though. Ball golf is notorious for being secretive about off-course violations and related punishments.

I've read and heard a number of pieces that strongly suggest that deterrents such as this are pretty worthless. The only benefit you receive is to distance yourself from the person in the eyes of the public. Your thoughts?
 
What means would you use to find out who's been charged with a felony?

Excellent point. I'd have to presume that the status is given, if you were made aware. But you're correct and caught something I hadn't thought of.

The notion is that you want some distance from felons. Felons being those who commit violent crimes. If the PDGA is unaware, then no bias no foul. Is it fair? No. But you're not aiming for fairness, you are aiming for distance.

You could go down the slippery slope. You're required to inform the PDGA of such, but then you've got other problems. Like, what if they forgot to tell you?

To reiterate, what is the goal? It sounds like the goal is to protect the PDGA from someone being investigated or having been found guilty of a felony. I'm for that, sorry if it offends. It's just good public policy, even better than the, we don't smoke policy, except in places where it's legal.

It seems to me that you have to go one way or the other. If it didn't happen at our event, we have no stake, or we don't want any association with such behavior. The middle of the road thing, as is being litigated here, is not going to work.
 
I can't help but feel you're taking me out of context. Please find the post where I said don't publish. If I did, then I grovel in abject humility. My intent is for nuance. If you publish a hard and fast rule you're stuck with it. Is that what you support? A hard matrix with flat rules for each infraction? With no room to maneuver?

LOL, back at ya. You mentioned a "range". I agreed there should be, and likely is, a range. If not, then the Matrix is flawed from the get go.

To summarize my thoughts. If a proper matrix is created and supported by a properly written disciplinary process (including a statement that the DC indeed does "judge" each situation and ultimately decides where a violation falls), then you have the needed transparency that 1) defines the potential punishment (as much as it can be defined) to the members of the PDGA and 2) Sets a precedent for appeals by a player who does not agree with the punishment.

I totally understand that a hard matrix with no accompanying literature in the disciplinary process is a terrible idea. My hunch is that the matrix does have a range - MTL?, but it is likely needs a lot of work before it would be released.

My position is it can be done right, and if it is, it's a win/win. The only way "hands are tied" for the DC is if the Matrix and/or the Process is poorly designed/written.

The BW situation shed light on why the process as it stands today is a bad one (IMO). You can call Paul McBeth a baby for his little social media statement, but his issue was transparency and if nothing changes it will continue to be an issue and as the sport grows the pressure on the PDGA will also grow.

I have almost no doubt the DC is fair and reasonable on how they handle each disciplinary situation. My only issue is the transparency piece.
 
Since there is 2 conversations going I will restate that I think keeping the actual player violations (John Did this) private is in the best interest of the PDGA from a legal standpoint and I see no issue with that being under wraps.
 
LOL, back at ya. You mentioned a "range". I agreed there should be, and likely is, a range. If not, then the Matrix is flawed from the get go.

To summarize my thoughts. If a proper matrix is created and supported by a properly written disciplinary process (including a statement that the DC indeed does "judge" each situation and ultimately decides where a violation falls), then you have the needed transparency that 1) defines the potential punishment (as much as it can be defined) to the members of the PDGA and 2) Sets a precedent for appeals by a player who does not agree with the punishment.

I totally understand that a hard matrix with no accompanying literature in the disciplinary process is a terrible idea. My hunch is that the matrix does have a range - MTL?, but it is likely needs a lot of work before it would be released.

My position is it can be done right, and if it is, it's a win/win. The only way "hands are tied" for the DC is if the Matrix and/or the Process is poorly designed/written.

The BW situation shed light on why the process as it stands today is a bad one (IMO). You can call Paul McBeth a baby for his little social media statement, but his issue was transparency and if nothing changes it will continue to be an issue and as the sport grows the pressure on the PDGA will also grow.

I have almost no doubt the DC is fair and reasonable on how they handle each disciplinary situation. My only issue is the transparency piece.

Wow! We agree. A couple of things, the intent of the PDGA has always been transparency. I suspect, since I'm not in the know, they are worried about battles over the length of punishments and letting out info about player's punishments (protecting player privacy is important, for example, BW can release all the info he's got and doesn't).

Secondly, the matrix I recall (over ten years now) had some ranges and some not. It just depended on the crime. Simple vs more complex. So, I think you're right. I don't want to go beyond that in my memory because I'm old and I think it is my place.
 
Last edited:
Wow! We agree. A couple of things, the intent of the PDGA has always been transparency. I suspect, since I'm not in the know, they are worried about battles over the length of punishments and letting out info about player's punishments (protecting player privacy is important, for example, BW can release all the info he's got and doesn't).

Secondly, the matrix I recall (over ten years now) had some ranges and some not. It just depended on the crime. Simple vs more complex. So, I think you're right. I don't want to go beyond that in my memory because I'm old and I think it is my place.

To your first point - They SHOULD be prepared for battles over the length of punishments. That is simple due process, which should apply to this sort of thing. Again, if the DC process and accompanying matrix are done right, and they follow said process/matrix in their decision, then they should have nothing to hide.

Transparency of what player committed what violation is a separate issue and I agree 100% with the PDGA attorney in keeping that private. The players themselves releasing information about their situation to the public is up to them.

It is certainly inevitable that Bob will get suspended under Violation A, which has a suspension length range of A - Z, and Bob will argue that John also got Violation A, but he only got the suspension length of B, while Bob received Z. It's the DC's job to provide a clear explanation to Bob why he received Z. It is not their job to discuss John's case with Bob.

A simple Example would be a category like "Player Misconduct with an incident of Violence" with a suspension length range of "2 months to permanent".

Bob was playing a PDGA event and got into an altercation on the course. He ended up pulling a knife on a guy and stabbing him in the stomach who was later rushed to the hospital and spent a month in the ICU and had several corrective surgeries. Criminal charges aside, the DC decides Bob is at the farthest end of the spectrum of this rules violation category and he is permanently banned from the PDGA.

John was playing a PDGA event and got into an altercation on the course. He ended up verbally threatening a guy on his card and pushed him, then the situation calmed. The DC decides John earned the minimum 2 month suspension.

A player appealing a decision is not based on what another player received. It's based on where the PDGA decided they fall on the spectrum and why. This is a bad example for an appeal, but let's say it turned out that Bob stabbed the guy after he flashed a gun then came at Bob who then pulled knife in fear for his life and stabbed him. The police later decide Bob was acting in self defense and Bob then appeals the decision of the permanent ban with the PDGA.

My extreme example is not the best, but you get the point.
 
A better example of appeal:

John has been suspended multiple times for alcohol abuse. Finally, the committee, recommends a 5 year suspension for John's 5th alcohol event during his PDGA career. PDGA president agrees and suspends John.

John says "this is a wake up call. If I complete an AA program, can we reduce it to a year?" and appeals.

The BOD has this power and approves the appeal.

Even if JOhn suggest that in the investigation process, DC doesn't have the ability to recommended such a punishment.
 
I should add that off the course stuff is certainly harder to define and the Matrix I'm referring to would be for rules violations, which would include several categories of offenses under player misconduct (Substance Use/violence/Courtesy/Cheating/ETC).

For those saying that no other sport does this, you are just wrong. The NFL uses fines, but they have a very defined offense = Fine table with 1st/2nd offense etc. They also have suspensions, which are defined in the various policies they have for drug abuse and other stuff . It's far more complex and this stuff happens through collective bargaining practices, but they certainly provide the players with Do this - Get this information.

What I would purpose for the PDGA DC would be something much more simple that is linked to rules violations as they are defined in the rule book. Fines, Drug Testing, Off the Field stuff - Maybe disc golf will get to a point where these things have to be defined as well and maybe we will have player unions and athletes with expensive attorneys. But for now, it should not be that difficult to define these things and leave a reasonable amount of wiggle room for the DC.
 
A better example of appeal:

John has been suspended multiple times for alcohol abuse. Finally, the committee, recommends a 5 year suspension for John's 5th alcohol event during his PDGA career. PDGA president agrees and suspends John.

John says "this is a wake up call. If I complete an AA program, can we reduce it to a year?" and appeals.

The BOD has this power and approves the appeal.

Even if JOhn suggest that in the investigation process, DC doesn't have the ability to recommended such a punishment.

I like the separation of powers and REALLY like the option for a reduced suspension through self improvement and/or community service of some kind.
 
Lazer, I absolutely agree that having public input over the infractions is a good thing. But going public with it and letting the chips fall is bad IMO.

Here's how the government does it. They write a rule, then have an open forum for public input. What that really means is that those with an agenda show up and comment.

I'd like something like that but don't have a good feel for what it should be as of yet. But you are fundamentally correct. Member input into the matrix would be a good thing.
 
I would suspect the PDGA has a strong bias toward players not getting into legal trouble, whether or not they are identified or identify (at the moment of arrest) as professional disc golfers. A suspension for off-course issues makes sense as a deterrent against future issues, whether on or off the course. I can't really believe I'm writing that as I really don't feel that athletes --as workers -- should be held to standards that most workers are not held to (I wouldn't be suspended from my job for a DUI, were that to happen). But, from a brand protection perspective (yuck), it makes sense.

As for publishing the punishment matrix, I don't know of any sport that does that. Unions might have a say in such processes though. Ball golf is notorious for being secretive about off-course violations and related punishments.

The players are not employees of the PDGA and imo the PDGA should refrain from attempting to control off the course behavior. Sponsors on the other hand should protect their brands.
 
I've read and heard a number of pieces that strongly suggest that deterrents such as this are pretty worthless. The only benefit you receive is to distance yourself from the person in the eyes of the public. Your thoughts?

I think that claim is accurate. And that's the benefit they are probably going for.
 
I've read and heard a number of pieces that strongly suggest that deterrents such as this are pretty worthless. The only benefit you receive is to distance yourself from the person in the eyes of the public. Your thoughts?

I would suspect the PDGA has a strong bias toward players not getting into legal trouble, whether or not they are identified or identify (at the moment of arrest) as professional disc golfers. A suspension for off-course issues makes sense as a deterrent against future issues, whether on or off the course. I can't really believe I'm writing that as I really don't feel that athletes --as workers -- should be held to standards that most workers are not held to (I wouldn't be suspended from my job for a DUI, were that to happen). But, from a brand protection perspective (yuck), it makes sense.

As for publishing the punishment matrix, I don't know of any sport that does that. Unions might have a say in such processes though. Ball golf is notorious for being secretive about off-course violations and related punishments.

The players are not employees of the PDGA and imo the PDGA should refrain from attempting to control off the course behavior. Sponsors on the other hand should protect their brands.

I agree with you, but aren't the PDGA, players, and sponsors all interested in "disc golf" as the umbrella brand? Like I said, I agree with you.
 
I think they know if they published something for off-course infractions then a lot of their previous big names like Climo and Nikko would be suspended for drug arrests. And then they would have to theoretically require testing to some degree. To me its another reason there should be a separate pro tour body from the PDGA because the PDGA as a "volunteer organization" can't handle testing 20-30k active players at a time.



I don't think you would have much of a professional disc golf tour if you instituted random drug testing.
 
In the account I read online Anthon was clearly identified as a professional disc golfer. IIRC, so were Climo and Goodpasture in the online news. I can see where Layland earning an action from the PDGA would seem "cherry-picked" as Gort points out.


As others have mentioned, it would be pretty easy to connect Climo, a multi time World Champ, with Innova and the PDGA.

Why wasn't the PDGA concerned about that?
 
Top