Course Maintenance or Vandalism?

[F.Luke]

I understand that permission from the parks department who administers a public course is the true defining line between the two.

There are disc golfers who believe that ANY tree, branch, or other cutting is wrong.

There are others who break any limb, sapling, or impediments which stand in their way.

I believe that selective trimming with pole saws, machetes, loppers and other hand tools (occasional chainsaws) will help prevent wanton vandalism and result in a better course for all players. New courses are said to "need some breaking in." I say with selective trimming, there will be less breaking involved.

Mods, if this belongs elsewhere, please relocate and excuse my bogeymemberness.

 

[ru4por]

It is quite popular to make right and wrong a grey area, but I don't think it is very hard to tell them apart. Courses should be made playable and safe. Course work should be left to the land owner or stewards.

 

[upstatedave]

I think the town or club should do upkeep and selective pruning cutting. But it doesn't matter how much it is done someone with land behind a tree and still break branches. It's just the way to is.

 

[PBokor]

I believe it depends on context. If it is a new course, as we are currently building in Maple Valley, then discer's are encouraged to stomp down the fairways and clear minor foliage for safety only. Power tools would certainly be ill advised and unwanted unless as part of a sanctioned work party.

 

[JeremyKShort]

If you're not working with whoever has authority over the course, then you don't do it. I don't understand why there is even any debate on this.
We have a course we put in a couple of years ago. Besides the regular trimming on some of the trees, there's one very wooded hold that has too many trees. Most of them are pretty small. We've taken them out very slowly, seeing how it plays and carefully choosing ones to take out. We don't want to go crazy and cut out too many. We had a year and a half between cutting down trees. Just because the trees are there doesn't mean that they aren't aware it needs trimming, they may just are being very careful.
We had a local cut down a tree limb to open up a line he wanted. He apparently didn't understand that the tee was put where it was so that the limb would block that line. We were not happy.

 

[upstatedave]

Just to be clear I wasn't advocating player break cut remove foliage or tree. I'm just saying people will do it. Just like your not allowed to drink until 21 but I'm pretty sure we all did it well before that. Lol.

 

[Hampstead]

We had a situation at Brent Hambrick. There were two small pines in the fairway of hole 14. They weren't there when the course first opened. However they got there, they became part of the course. Some people wanted them removed, some just played the hole and accepted them. A year ago (maybe 2? time is a blur) somebody cut around the bottom of the trees, slowly killing them. Plenty of speculation who, but that's another story. Anyway, they died and were removed right before the BHMO. Nobody is really complaining that they are gone. But, the person who did it wasn't authorized and therefore it can be considered course vandalism.

Long story short, sometimes it can be a grey area.

 

[DanJon]

No.

You do not get to come along and dictate how the course breaks in.

Did you put in the work to get the course installed in the first place?

You do realize how much work goes into getting a course approved, funded and then built.

Build your own course if you think you know what is best for the design.

The better option is to show up on work days, when someone who actually built the place, is usually there.

Then you can make your little suggestions and perhaps they will even listen to you.

Just my two cents.

 

[F.Luke]

No.

You do not get to come along and dictate how the course breaks in.

Did you put in the work to get the course installed in the first place?

You do realize how much work goes into getting a course approved, funded and then built.

Build your own course if you think you know what is best for the design.

The better option is to show up on work days, when someone who actually built the place, is usually there.

Then you can make your little suggestions and perhaps they will even listen to you.

Just my two cents.

If there is no club, there are no workdays.

If there are few players, the fairways are not trod upon.

If the parks dept labor is inadequate, playability and safety become an issue.

I have helped design and install and/or maintain 3 different courses, one unfinished, in my last home base. Currently I'm content with my now home course's condition (poor) because it keeps the course empty and with my local knowledge and a badaxe disc dog (who's exuberance is overwhelming) the solitude is perfect.

Unfortunately, I appreciate the game and want it more accesible to all and thoroughly enjoy introducing new players to the sport. I fear my only recourse is to notify the parks dept of my intent, await approval, and then go about the thankless job of maintaining fairways with the machete.

I am no advocate of cutting trees unless they have fallen or, as saplings, they lean into or begin growing up into previously defined fairways. The designer had intent and I respect that.

When the parks dept won't allow a volunteer to run powertools (aka: weedeater) and their crew cuts scarcely a 5 foot pathway through briars for us players, I can't see waiting months for county action when an hour and a gallon of mix gas could fix one problem. A storm ravaged several holes. Brush piles abound. The parks dept maintanence crew has deemed the holes playable, with no further work necessary. They are wrong. Is the only solution beurocracy?

Here's a dollar. Keep the change.

 

[PBokor]

F.Luke

Depending on local opinion, you may become a hero or a pariah. Either way, follow your heart.

Our best local course was built and is still maintained by one guy (though he has full Parks & Rec cooperation).

 

[upstatedave]

Well what I would do is go to the parks and rec. Department and see if they will help out. If no dice and the blow you off, go talk to your City councilman for that area or what ever local public official is that was elected. Have him meet you there have a few friends with you outline your ideas, wants and needs. Tell him if he can secure permission for you and your party to take over upkeep. Tell him it would be good press too. Politicians love good press. Make sure you follow through and get it done and do a little ace race or skins tourney or something have him come back for it and give him a cheapo thank you disc or something.

 

[grodney]

We had a situation at Brent Hambrick. There were two small pines in the fairway of hole 14. They weren't there when the course first opened. However they got there, they became part of the course. Some people wanted them removed, some just played the hole and accepted them. A year ago (maybe 2? time is a blur) somebody cut around the bottom of the trees, slowly killing them. Plenty of speculation who, but that's another story.

Brad Hammock?

 

[biscoe]

Doesn't one of your local players now work for the parks department? (Nathan H) What do he and the designers (Eddie and Landon) have to say about the situation?

If the situation remains untenable I suggest moving up the local govt totem pole.

 

[DavidSauls]

I think the original question wasn't about whether it's right or wrong for someone without authority to do some trimming.

It's the theory that if the people with authority do proper trimming, the unauthorized ones will have less motivation to do it on their own. Some will do so anyway, of course.

My situation is similar, and entirely different. My brother and I have a private course, and have pretty much made a decision on every small tree and branch. No one's coming out and making unauthorized cuts---hardly anyone comes out to help with the authorized ones, for that matter. But if it were public and they did, they might come to the places where we've intended to keep a certain lane clear, but not done so yet, and they might clear a different lane, one we didn't intend. (We actually used to have a volunteer who had his own ideas of course design, and had to be watched carefully).

I can see this being true on a public course, as well. If obstacles have grown up near a green, some unauthorized players might do their own pruning. It might not be the pruning you wanted. If the green were maintained so that the approved putting areas were clear, they might not. (Sometimes they will, anyway, but we can't fix that on this forum).

So the question is, can you minimize the unauthorized work, but keeping the course well maintained in the first place?

 

[ru4por]

If there is no club, there are no workdays.

If there are few players, the fairways are not trod upon.

If the parks dept labor is inadequate, playability and safety become an issue.

I have helped design and install and/or maintain 3 different courses, one unfinished, in my last home base. Currently I'm content with my now home course's condition (poor) because it keeps the course empty and with my local knowledge and a badaxe disc dog (who's exuberance is overwhelming) the solitude is perfect.

Unfortunately, I appreciate the game and want it more accesible to all and thoroughly enjoy introducing new players to the sport. I fear my only recourse is to notify the parks dept of my intent, await approval, and then go about the thankless job of maintaining fairways with the machete.

I am no advocate of cutting trees unless they have fallen or, as saplings, they lean into or begin growing up into previously defined fairways. The designer had intent and I respect that.

When the parks dept won't allow a volunteer to run powertools (aka: weedeater) and their crew cuts scarcely a 5 foot pathway through briars for us players, I can't see waiting months for county action when an hour and a gallon of mix gas could fix one problem. A storm ravaged several holes. Brush piles abound. The parks dept maintanence crew has deemed the holes playable, with no further work necessary. They are wrong. Is the only solution beurocracy?

Here's a dollar. Keep the change.

Again, I am confused with the inability to know right from wrong. Just because it is good for you, that does not justify a wrong action. IS IT YOURS? If not, don't mess with it. If there is a complete disinterest in maintaining the course, perhaps it should not be there in the first place.

 

[ru4por]

I think the original question wasn't about whether it's right or wrong for someone without authority to do some trimming.

It's the theory that if the people with authority do proper trimming, the unauthorized ones will have less motivation to do it on their own. Some will do so anyway, of course.

My situation is similar, and entirely different. My brother and I have a private course, and have pretty much made a decision on every small tree and branch. No one's coming out and making unauthorized cuts---hardly anyone comes out to help with the authorized ones, for that matter. But if it were public and they did, they might come to the places where we've intended to keep a certain lane clear, but not done so yet, and they might clear a different lane, one we didn't intend. (We actually used to have a volunteer who had his own ideas of course design, and had to be watched carefully).

I can see this being true on a public course, as well. If obstacles have grown up near a green, some unauthorized players might do their own pruning. It might not be the pruning you wanted. If the green were maintained so that the approved putting areas were clear, they might not. (Sometimes they will, anyway, but we can't fix that on this forum).

So the question is, can you minimize the unauthorized work, but keeping the course well maintained in the first place?

Rereading the OP, you are right, David. I am probably responsible for the drift, by accident. The only way I see significantly reducing vandalism would be to trim and prune every course, to ensure all nature is out of reach. I sure don't want to see that necessarily becoming the norm. There will always be those that feel it is OK to vandalize a course, to the detriment of many, for the benefit of themselves. Entitlement is a virus.

 

[THUGNIFICENT763]

If you are not the landowner, you have no business modifying anything.

 

[DavidSauls]

Well, more succinctly, if somebody doesn't do it right, somebody else is bound to do it wrong.

And that somebody else might do it wrong, anyway.

 

[gradus]

If you're not working with whoever has authority over the course, then you don't do it.

Agree with this post but disagree with a few of the others. You shouldn't wait for sanctioned work days or just leave it to the club to maintain your course. You should communicate with the right people, learn what needs to be done and help make it happen. Over time you'll get a better idea of what is needed. Check back in to make sure that you're doing the right things.

I can't always make work days, but I haul a backpack sprayer to the course, kill poison ivy and sometimes spray large areas of brush. Have clippers in my bag and sometimes cut branches or saplings. I didn't install the course or have any authority, I just asked what needed to be done and learned the types of things it's ok to cut/kill on my own.

 

[DavidSauls]

Agree with this post but disagree with a few of the others. You shouldn't wait for sanctioned work days or just leave it to the club to maintain your course. You should communicate with the right people, learn what needs to be done and help make it happen. Over time you'll get a better idea of what is needed. Check back in to make sure that you're doing the right things.

I can't always make work days, but I haul a backpack sprayer to the course, kill poison ivy and sometimes spray large areas of brush. Have clippers in my bag and sometimes cut branches or saplings. I didn't install the course or have any authority, I just asked what needed to be done and learned the types of things it's ok to cut/kill on my own.

My thought was that, by "working with", he meant coordinating, communicating, and having permission so that you're on the same page as whoever's in authority. Not necessarily physically working with them.