Disc Golf Expectations and Pushing your Limits

[sidewinder22]

I was going to post this in the Can anyone throw 500' thread, but figured this is better to have it's own thread without the clutter in that thread.

 

[smoothplayer]

He didn't really mention current age, he did sort of. If you are over 50 years old and picking up DG good luck reaching 500 feet, let alone 450 or 400.

The second point is your starting flexibility and strength which sort of corresponds to starting at a young age. If you sat at a desk job for 10 years and are 32 and did little to no strength and flexibility training then again, you're going to need many years just to get up to par in order to make a powerful throw.

I think flexibility is a huge limiter for most people. They simply cannot physically do it.

 

[Brychanus]

I was going to post this in the Can anyone throw 500' thread, but figured this is better to have it's own thread without the clutter in that thread.

<3 <3 <3

For those that haven't cared to look, that whole tread has interesting and entertaining tidbits and loads of personality.

He didn't really mention current age, he did sort of. If you are over 50 years old and picking up DG good luck reaching 500 feet, let alone 450 or 400.

The second point is your starting flexibility and strength which sort of corresponds to starting at a young age. If you sat at a desk job for 10 years and are 32 and did little to no strength and flexibility training then again, you're going to need many years just to get up to par in order to make a powerful throw.

I think flexibility is a huge limiter for most people. They simply cannot physically do it.

Totally agree.

In my own case, even in just my 30s it really was like rehabbing my flexibility for a while just to get a full range of motion back from my late teens/20s when I was doing more martial arts. That took like 4 months, and more if you include some work with a PT. It's kind of upsetting what desk life does to the body if you aren't working to offset it, and finding the time is hard for many of us.

I guess the whole spirit of the video is that I didn't like the idea of setting "pre-ordained" limits no matter where people start. That's why I avoided trying to predict a "limit" for myself even though I have a hunch.

I do think there's more to say and esp. to the older/later in life crew. There's a lot of evidence that it's possible to maintain quite a bit of strength and flexibility into later age, but you need to put in the work. It's slightly harder to rebuild when it is lost than it is to maintain it. It's hardest to gain it for the first time, but gains can be made.

I hope people will share their stories on this thread.

 

[RowingBoats]

Interesting video. Not sure it brings anything revolutionary to the table, but I liked watching it.

One thing that he does touch on, that is one of the biggest hurdles in my opinion, is pointing out that learning as an adult can be too analytical. It is paradoxical, because I don't think I could have learned how to have a reasonable throw without all of this analysis and breakdown...but you have to stop thinking at some point and just use your natural, 'free-wheeling' intuition.

I basically scoured every scrap of technical, mechanical advice I could starting out. I got caught up in trying to think about the swing as a flowchart of positions, and it never got me anywhere. I was trying to have 3 or 4 thoughts during a swing, and it was just a mess. Then I started just...doing the thing, without thinking about it, and that is what did it for me. You can't separate the two concepts, because having all of this info is part of what got me there, but I think its important to leave the analysis behind at some point, and its very easy to never do that.

Also lol at the thread link, forgot about that rodeo clown show hahaha.

I still don't know if I could throw 500' either. I am able to throw a consistent 400' stand still with a flipped flat wraith, so maybe? But I also like just being that guy that doesn't ever do a runup and still has a respectable throw lol, we may never know.

 

[Brychanus]

Interesting video. Not sure it brings anything revolutionary to the table, but I liked watching it.

One thing that he does touch on, that is one of the biggest hurdles in my opinion, is pointing out that learning as an adult can be too analytical. It is paradoxical, because I don't think I could have learned how to have a reasonable throw without all of this analysis and breakdown...but you have to stop thinking at some point and just use your natural, 'free-wheeling' intuition.

I basically scoured every scrap of technical, mechanical advice I could starting out. I got caught up in trying to think about the swing as a flowchart of positions, and it never got me anywhere. I was trying to have 3 or 4 thoughts during a swing, and it was just a mess. Then I started just...doing the thing, without thinking about it, and that is what did it for me. You can't separate the two concepts, because having all of this info is part of what got me there, but I think its important to leave the analysis behind at some point, and its very easy to never do that.

Also lol at the thread link, forgot about that rodeo clown show hahaha.

I still don't know if I could throw 500' either. I am able to throw a consistent 400' stand still with a flipped flat wraith, so maybe? But I also like just being that guy that doesn't ever do a runup and still has a respectable throw lol, we may never know.

Appreciate this. I hope it's not revolutionary - I'd be worried that I said something terribly wrong. More like a message/reminder to n00bs like me who have all the enthusiasm in the world but a lot of learning to do.

My first contact with a version of a "free-wheeling" swing was part of what got me in trouble. It was like being "set free" from all the heady stuff and just starting to enjoy the results. Then I got too ambitious way too quickly (without even noticing it) and paid a fortunately survivable price.

I know very few people who would complain about having a 400' standstill. SMASH.

 

[RowingBoats]

Appreciate this. I hope it's not revolutionary - I'd be worried that I said something terribly wrong. More like a message/reminder to n00bs like me who have all the enthusiasm in the world but a lot of learning to do.

My first contact with a version of a "free-wheeling" swing was part of what got me in trouble. It was like being "set free" from all the heady stuff and just starting to enjoy the results. Then I got too ambitious way too quickly (without even noticing it) and paid a fortunately survivable price.

I know very few people who would complain about having a 400' standstill. SMASH.

I'm out of the loop on members here lately, didn't even realize you made the video. Good work sir!

I agree with you too, it can't be all free-wheeling, but it can't be all analytical step by step posing either. Probably, what I'm talking about is basically what you talked about in the unlearning phases, or is tangentially related at least.

 

[Sheep]

So much good info here about practicing.

Pushing and pushing is one of the things that I tell people to stop doing. Putting is one of the big ones that I stress it on. You can over putt and hurt your putt more. Practicing to much when you're tired vs just pushing a big passed it to build the stamina for it.

As well, field work. Using field work every time to just throw further, you're not fully developing the muscle groups and you're going to hurt yourself. He uses the weight lifting analogy here which is fantastic. Because you dont just work legs every day, or arms every day.

Bombers one day, small upshots another day, putting a different day giving the muscles a chance to heal a bit and rebuild, and then of course if you're serious about this stuff, eating properly is huge behind this. Dropping junk food, soda, fast food and garbage intake which dont help feed your muscles properly. I'm not saying go to crazy diet levels, just eliminate as much garbage as you can, it stresses your body out and healing takes longer which is things he's talking about in here.

Levers is an interesting topic as well.
It's so much easier for smaller levers to get good quick vs longer, but yes, leverage in the end, but we cannot say little levers cannot achieve a lot, because there are players that prove that wrong.
But if you got long arms, long legs, you're ability to throw good quickly is going to take more effort because its harder to be clean with those big arms and legs vs short arms or legs.

 

[Sheep]

The second point is your starting flexibility and strength which sort of corresponds to starting at a young age. If you sat at a desk job for 10 years and are 32 and did little to no strength and flexibility training then again, you're going to need many years just to get up to par in order to make a powerful throw.

I think flexibility is a huge limiter for most people. They simply cannot physically do it.

Flexibility is a huge issue. Teaching larger framed individuals who have almost no flexability is very difficult. you have to learn to teach them in weird ways because they cannot rotate at the hips the same and they have to muscle to some extent.

Then you get into issues like I have where I'm almost to flexible which causes me other grief. It's very easy for me to over rotate in the hips which causes for some fun. So my swing in general looks weird cause I step out so far to stop my hip rotation from going to far.
Which really hurts on some of these boxed off tee pads where I don't get much room on them with my weird swing.

One thing that he does touch on, that is one of the biggest hurdles in my opinion, is pointing out that learning as an adult can be too analytical. It is paradoxical, because I don't think I could have learned how to have a reasonable throw without all of this analysis and breakdown...but you have to stop thinking at some point and just use your natural, 'free-wheeling' intuition.

That is why I particularly feel so strong about the language we use in disc golf as teachers/coaches. The better language we use, the better our more developed minds can understand to automatically initiate the movements vs the archaic incorrect descriptors used in general. When we use proper que's to the brain, the brain will more naturally "free wheel" that movement vs you trying to fight it.

Thats why I really love the dance/waltz analogy of the swing. Trying to teach such ridged expectations is what will get people closer to the "getting hurt" zone vs allowing the body to flow and do its thing with minor corrections to try and correct other parts of the body.

I try and look at it from the ball golf training stuff I had when I was younger as the "natural golf" method.
I try and teach people to get as natural of a swing as possible which will help reduce injuries letting the body flow more proper, vs some ridged structure.
When you got the flow, you can throw in the advanced stuff like fast twitch, off arm acceleration, driving into the plant harder. Then its just a matter of finding the timing to work based off that clean foundation you tried to build previously with the flow, but adding more of a flair to the dance.

Appreciate this. I hope it's not revolutionary - I'd be worried that I said something terribly wrong. More like a message/reminder to n00bs like me who have all the enthusiasm in the world but a lot of learning to do.

My first contact with a version of a "free-wheeling" swing was part of what got me in trouble. It was like being "set free" from all the heady stuff and just starting to enjoy the results. Then I got too ambitious way too quickly (without even noticing it) and paid a fortunately survivable price.

I know very few people who would complain about having a 400' standstill. SMASH.

Graham Russel is honestly not talked about enough when it comes to form.
dude can throw damn near 500 from a standstill.
His knee's dont allow him to do the runups, but none of us, including me, really get into his mechanics.
Now, the unfortunate part is there isn't much video on his mechanics, but there is a round video of him from a tournament a long while ago.

Conversations in here are so fantastic as its people stacking idea's with each other so we can all learn and grow as coaches or players learning together vs people just throwing video's on the internet as "their way."

 

[Brychanus]

I'm out of the loop on members here lately, didn't even realize you made the video. Good work sir!

I agree with you too, it can't be all free-wheeling, but it can't be all analytical step by step posing either. Probably, what I'm talking about is basically what you talked about in the unlearning phases, or is tangentially related at least.

Thanks, and I'm always open to critique in any case!

The freewheeling thing and learning is interesting. Once a motor program is there it's easier to reactivate. And once the pieces of the move get more connected into a "freewheeling" swing you can go with the flow, but still need to slow down to integrate some changes and get a little more analytical. One "sorta" mistake I've made so far was not getting enough reinforcement for certain pieces before trying the next. On the other hand, there are data showing that hopping around and random schedules of reinforcement are more effective in later development once a learning base is there (acknowledging the blocked and random practice vid too). And I'm sure all of us have tried to learn something, got frustrated and worked on something else, and then found that the other thing worked itself out. Funny brains.

I find it hard to balance but some mix of rolling with what you've got and making changes over time seems reasonable if you've got a workable flow and safe mechanics. I keep finding that every time I change something there's a phase where I can feel competition between old and new programs especially when I'm throwing on the course ("context-dependent" memory). For a while you may need to consciously remind yourself about the most recent lesson, then later on it's easier and unconscious.

Still annoying when old habits pop back in when you change something else. Like today I was working on cleaning up my off arm (which itself got a little funky again from a prior change). But then I found that I was gripping my throwing putter like a vice into my palm for some reason without noticing it for half of a round and had to get loose and reset again. Such a strange and wonderful game.

Long haul, indeed.

 

[Sheep]

On the other hand, there are data showing that hopping around and random schedules of reinforcement are more effective in later development once a learning base is there (acknowledging the blocked and random practice vid too)

I watched that video and it makes a lot of sense. I'm an "under fire" style learner. I don't book learn well. I learn trial by fire sorta. Which is really random and really in your face stress to learn with on jobs. But my overall retention from everything I do is HUGE vs me reading a book and taking a test which... yeah, I don't test well.

Still annoying when old habits pop back in when you change something else

Nothing makes me want to scream more. Especially putting.
My old putt will sneak back in from like 2 years ago on long putts sometimes and ... its never gonna work. hahaha.
I know my current putt works better, and I had it nailed down. Then didn't rep it in cause I got busy so after a bit I lost the 30+ ft putt and i keep accidentally pushing some old crappy putt that had a low success rate.

*sigh*

 

[Brychanus]

Wiggins talking about his distance development from a young age.

His 360 took 7 or 8 years to develop from childhood into his teens.

He talks about weight training and using similar exercises to javelin throwers. He threw 2-3 times per week when training distance interspersed with lifting.

They got a 3D capture in a golf facility and he's talking about further understanding and optimizing form. I hope we can see some of those data publicly soon.

In recent coverage he's still touching ~85mph with his 360 form with a few 650' bombs in calm conditions captured on film. Amazing.

 

[Sheep]

https://youtu.be/XtMoGuqdFeE?t=346

Or just throw 720 without a 360.

 

[seedlings]

Touched on in Bruchanus' video… is rest. I have a tendency to want to spend 30-45m throwing hard like every day. Then I got sick for a week or so and didn't touch a disc. Followed that up with parking one hole I've never been able to land in C1. I couldn't get that far on the low line required. Now I've done it three times in a row. The third time was almost pin high. Us cerebral old dudes can't 'power through' training ligaments and tendons.

Now, when they put the other hole I can't get into C1 back to long position… I'll rest up and give it a whirl.

 

[Brychanus]

https://youtu.be/XtMoGuqdFeE?t=346

Or just throw 720 without a 360.

I'm glad Simon has been taking better care of himself but man I wish I was paying attention in the era when he was throwing like that.

Still interested in the differences in technique vs. other variables (anatomy/myotype etc) in where the top people get their power. Superficially, Simon and Wiggins are shaped very differently. Simon moves more like a dancer and Wiggins more like an MMA fighter. I want a randomized experiment where you can give Lizotte Wiggins' form and vice versa and test the results, but sadly that's a fantasy. We also never will get all of the circumstantial variables controlled unless people are throwing in a well-regulated indoor environment. Will have to hope for more data and modeling over time. Mechanically I'm convinced at this point that there are more similarities than differences in the "fundamental" form at the top level, but the interactions between advanced form and individual differences is interesting.

Touched on in Bruchanus' video… is rest. I have a tendency to want to spend 30-45m throwing hard like every day. Then I got sick for a week or so and didn't touch a disc. Followed that up with parking one hole I've never been able to land in C1. I couldn't get that far on the low line required. Now I've done it three times in a row. The third time was almost pin high. Us cerebral old dudes can't 'power through' training ligaments and tendons.

Now, when they put the other hole I can't get into C1 back to long position… I'll rest up and give it a whirl.

I hear you man, nice results!

Just reporting out that I'm practicing what I preached in that vid now. I desperately want to throw every day, but I get my "fix" between sessions with other exercise, including lightly weighted swing exercises, and low impact dynamic stretches. My joints feel much better and I feel like it's more that my muscles are getting taxed than ligaments/tendons and I'm recovering more completely between sessions. I was "allowed" to do a field session today, but we moved my weekend round to tomorrow, so I just threw ~20 low effort standstills in my basement station to check out some posture/separation/swing path stuff Salto and SW22 gave me and called it a rest. I never would have done that before.

I'm not planning to throw for "max" distance again for at least several weeks while I keep cleaning up my posture and swing path. The tax on my joints is too high since my swing is still too variable and it has a couple important deficiencies. I can make a lot of progress throwing at ~80% each session now. Even if I work on my max I'm going to be very careful. I'm not 20 anymore and it's not worth serious injury to me. I'm also learning the unsurprising lesson that effort goes down and distance creeps up with each adjustment, so my 80% keeps getting better than the last time. I don't even know what "80%" means anymore - it's more like it's either a "really low effort" swing or a "higher effort swing." The thing that distinguishes the two seems to be part clunky mechanics and how much I focus on "exploding" through the late acceleration. Interesting.

I know why this approach is "better" and I'm glad for the change even though I can't fully satisfy my daily compulsion. I feel a little sheepish for not attacking it like this before, but as a "non-athlete" before this I can forgive myself.

 

[seedlings]

I had meniscus knee surgery maybe 15y ago. Knee has never been aggravated throwing a disc (as it will after ONE kick of a ball with my kids, have to be left-footed). Never had elbow or shoulder pain, and I've often thrown hard for a couple of hours at a time. I'm not gonna say that throwing doesn't stress those ligaments and tendons, only that I don't notice it happening. I will say that my legs, sides, butt, back muscles are sore, like after lifting weights after a long break. I'll also add that my general philosophy is to work smart, not hard. This leads me to throwing VERY intentional, while not (ever?) as hard as possible. [this may be a 47yo body's defense mechanism kicking in, preventing injury, idk]

 

[Sheep]

I'm glad Simon has been taking better care of himself but man I wish I was paying attention in the era when he was throwing like that.

Still interested in the differences in technique vs. other variables (anatomy/myotype etc) in where the top people get their power. Superficially, Simon and Wiggins are shaped very differently. Simon moves more like a dancer and Wiggins more like an MMA fighter. I want a randomized experiment where you can give Lizotte Wiggins' form and vice versa and test the results, but sadly that's a fantasy. We also never will get all of the circumstantial variables controlled unless people are throwing in a well-regulated indoor environment. Will have to hope for more data and modeling over time. Mechanically I'm convinced at this point that there are more similarities than differences in the "fundamental" form at the top level, but the interactions between advanced form and individual differences is interesting.

A lot of it has to do with hitting the key points in the swing.
Different ways to get there also create different results in how the disc flies such as spin or leverage as well.

And I think that is a good analogy on wiggens vs simon.
Simon has insane power, but he always looks so in control of it.

He is an outlier for a disc golfer, and its so fun watching him actually golf now and show off his amazing talent on golfing, not just insane shots.

 

[Sard0nyx]

A lot of it has to do with hitting the key points in the swing.
Different ways to get there also create different results in how the disc flies such as spin or leverage as well.

And I think that is a good analogy on wiggens vs simon.
Simon has insane power, but he always looks so in control of it.

He is an outlier for a disc golfer, and its so fun watching him actually golf now and show off his amazing talent on golfing, not just insane shots.

Do you have a write up or summary of the key points of the swing? I've been trying to get "it" and been reading lots here and watching YouTube, but sometimes stuff seems contradictory or is not simple to understand.

When I watch pros it looks like they're doing something extra with the disc that is hard to explain. Getting that snap that shoots the disc out super fast.

 

[Sheep]

Do you have a write up or summary of the key points of the swing? I've been trying to get "it" and been reading lots here and watching YouTube, but sometimes stuff seems contradictory or is not simple to understand.

When I watch pros it looks like they're doing something extra with the disc that is hard to explain. Getting that snap that shoots the disc out super fast.

I do not have a comprehensive list. And trying to make one with some of the form guys out there is impossible as they are not interested in that sort of stuff. They are interested in furthering their brand or teaching their way. blah blah. I know I keep repeating this, and it sounds really harsh and annoying, but truth hurts.

Sidewinder is one of the few big form people who's really interested in what others have to say and discussing it, that's why he's in here.

So yes, What we get is a bunch of youtubers all saying different things contradicting each other, which is even more annoying. Especially when they might be demonstrating the correct actions, but explaining it poorly because they don't actually understand what they are talking about.

Then there are youtubers out there who are jumping on the bandwagon for some things, but because they have big channels, or great production, they are getting credit for work that other people frontlined long before them. (As in, they are taking credit for things they didn't do)

For a comprehensive list overall though, I don't really think I understand the swing 100% enough to give a full list.
But there are body load points and some key mechanics to hitting the swing. Then of those mechanics, there are exceptions to those mechanics which keep getting discussed and used as excuses to make youtube video's to justify their poor swings and teach that poor swing to other people on the internet.
Like this new one right now about how the "power pocket isn't necessary" and "how the pro's dont do it all the time"
Yeah, they do, but they also have technique that we don't 100% understand.

Which takes us into the last part.

Simon and Paul are like the worst about this here, they can throw 200 feet with what looks like a little wrist snap. And its annoying. It's annoying to go in your yard and try and emulate and figure out what they are doing to learn and you sorta get it, but you don't.
Simon and Paul just take a putter and pop it a little bit and it goes forever and stays straight.
I do it in the yard and, it goes pretty far and hyzers out despite being a more understable disc than paul or simon are throwing.

I'm noticing some mechanics in the pro players that have been touted as "no no's" for a long time, such as how to use your wrist in the pocket. The pro's are not keeping their wrist straight, they are loading it further in the pocket when they engage their fast twitch muscles into the hit of the swing. But this has been said as "dont do this" for years and years now, but almost all the pro's are to some extent. Cause spin is good. you want spin, lots of spin.


I want to work on some video stuff with kind of looking over some key points, but I want to do it all live with participants, otherwise its just me grandstanding and rambling on.
I mean, I can do that anyways. haha.
But I feel like I want to break some stuff down in some really weird ways on camera and think them over.
I don't want to re-invent the wheel, but I wanna take the wheel apart and discuss how it rolls a bit more.

 

[Sard0nyx]

I've had the habit of going back through the old DGR Forums and re-reading almost every popular thread from back then in order to find that elusive Snap. It feels like that is something that is not talked about enough these days. Probably because there was no easy way to teach it. I can do hammer pound drills all day without know how to properly incorporate it into my throw.

I've spent a lot of time refining my form with Sidewinder videos and getting the proper swing/body mechanics, but at the end of the day, without that extra magic that HUB mentions, you'll still hit that plateau. For me, I've spent almost two years trying all sorts of things and still hitting the same distance plateau every time. I'm starting to see that the Simon and Paul throws are what's needed to get to the next level. It's clear to me that whatever they're doing to the disc generates a ton of spin. I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I wish sometimes that someone could revitalize the teaching with the hand and wrist and make it easier to understand or more applicable today. (It seems like the incomplete technique was never really completed) You can watch videos and slo-mo all day and not understand how to do it.

 

[azplaya25]

I've had the habit of going back through the old DGR Forums and re-reading almost every popular thread from back then in order to find that elusive Snap. It feels like that is something that is not talked about enough these days. Probably because there was no easy way to teach it. I can do hammer pound drills all day without know how to properly incorporate it into my throw.

I've spent a lot of time refining my form with Sidewinder videos and getting the proper swing/body mechanics, but at the end of the day, without that extra magic that HUB mentions, you'll still hit that plateau. For me, I've spent almost two years trying all sorts of things and still hitting the same distance plateau every time. I'm starting to see that the Simon and Paul throws are what's needed to get to the next level. It's clear to me that whatever they're doing to the disc generates a ton of spin. I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I wish sometimes that someone could revitalize the teaching with the hand and wrist and make it easier to understand or more applicable today. (It seems like the incomplete technique was never really completed) You can watch videos and slo-mo all day and not understand how to do it.

It's all about your grip and wrist and holding the disc in a way that you lever our the other side of the disc. When you look at a smooth, round disc, it's hard to see the handle you are supposed to be holding. Try flipping the disc over, and you'll see the handle. It's the rim. You want to hold the disc in a way that the rim is the handle of the hammer/golf club/hockey stick. Once you grip it correctly, you'll see how easy it is to get spin/torque/snap without actively trying to spin it