Disc Golf Expectations and Pushing your Limits

[Sheep]

I've had the habit of going back through the old DGR Forums and re-reading almost every popular thread from back then in order to find that elusive Snap. It feels like that is something that is not talked about enough these days. Probably because there was no easy way to teach it. I can do hammer pound drills all day without know how to properly incorporate it into my throw.

I've spent a lot of time refining my form with Sidewinder videos and getting the proper swing/body mechanics, but at the end of the day, without that extra magic that HUB mentions, you'll still hit that plateau. For me, I've spent almost two years trying all sorts of things and still hitting the same distance plateau every time. I'm starting to see that the Simon and Paul throws are what's needed to get to the next level. It's clear to me that whatever they're doing to the disc generates a ton of spin. I don't really know where I'm going with this, but I wish sometimes that someone could revitalize the teaching with the hand and wrist and make it easier to understand or more applicable today. (It seems like the incomplete technique was never really completed) You can watch videos and slo-mo all day and not understand how to do it.

If you're looking for an audible snap, I would suggest that is not the key to actual snap. According to feldberg anyways, that's just the sound of our fingers smacking our hand as the disc is ripped from them.

As for plateauing, I feel you on this one. I fought and fought with myself over this because I was struggling to break 400, and it turns out I was lying to myself the whole time that I was throwing nose down. I didn't believe it was possible to hit 400 with a nose up throw.

Getting the nose down and getting the spin into the disc can make it a completely different experience.

I am not accusing you of throwing nose up, but when you get into the big dog distance discs, 1 degree of nose angle can be the difference between that disc reaching 450+ and stall hyzering at 400. So, if you're having struggles pushing that distance out, seriously consider that you might still be throwing slightly nose up.

For me it's a huge challenge to keep the nose down that I struggle with every game. Even though I feel I'm doing all the right things, I'm doing something wrong. So frustrating.

 

[Sard0nyx]

If you're looking for an audible snap, I would suggest that is not the key to actual snap. According to feldberg anyways, that's just the sound of our fingers smacking our hand as the disc is ripped from them.

As for plateauing, I feel you on this one. I fought and fought with myself over this because I was struggling to break 400, and it turns out I was lying to myself the whole time that I was throwing nose down. I didn't believe it was possible to hit 400 with a nose up throw.

Getting the nose down and getting the spin into the disc can make it a completely different experience.

I am not accusing you of throwing nose up, but when you get into the big dog distance discs, 1 degree of nose angle can be the difference between that disc reaching 450+ and stall hyzering at 400. So, if you're having struggles pushing that distance out, seriously consider that you might still be throwing slightly nose up.

For me it's a huge challenge to keep the nose down that I struggle with every game. Even though I feel I'm doing all the right things, I'm doing something wrong. So frustrating.

I'm not looking for that audible snap but the hula hoop feeling of pulling the disc around or that heavy disc feeling that people talk about. I very occasionally have been feeling those on throws, but I cannot figure out how to replicate it. Sometimes it feels like the timing window is so small to do stuff during the swing. It's also possible that I'm not holding onto the disc long enough to cause the massive pivot that you see pro players have.

It's possible that nose issues might be taking some of my distance away. My plateau I keep hitting is in the 380-400 on flat lines/slight flip up lines. I can maybe squeeze out 20 more feet on a flex/anny line. Just trying to get flat shots to the 450 range, but I feel like I'm missing some extra oomph somewhere. Whether it be nose angle or if I'm not pulling the disc fully around the corner before it slips out.

 

[Billbox]

I´ve also been searching for that feeling - or the feeling that the disc RIPS itself out of my hand. Found it a couple times, havent had luck finding it since. :S

 

[Sheep]

I'm not looking for that audible snap but the hula hoop feeling of pulling the disc around or that heavy disc feeling that people talk about. I very occasionally have been feeling those on throws, but I cannot figure out how to replicate it. Sometimes it feels like the timing window is so small to do stuff during the swing. It's also possible that I'm not holding onto the disc long enough to cause the massive pivot that you see pro players have.

It's possible that nose issues might be taking some of my distance away. My plateau I keep hitting is in the 380-400 on flat lines/slight flip up lines. I can maybe squeeze out 20 more feet on a flex/anny line. Just trying to get flat shots to the 450 range, but I feel like I'm missing some extra oomph somewhere. Whether it be nose angle or if I'm not pulling the disc fully around the corner before it slips out.

You're stuck in that area I live in as well.

The only time I start breaking 380-400 is when I really get the nose down and get the discs to work and fly properly not stalling at apex, but pushing at apex.

It's absolutely frustrating to some extent, I can throw almost every disc in my bag 300 feet.

But then start trying to move drivers out a bit further and... sometimes it's just not there and its so annoying.

And it really is some weird stuff in this range, and some people are so natural at getting the nose down for the easy distance.

Now, let me state as well, I am never looking to throw passed 60-70% when I throw. I have to many injuries, so I'm never trying to "grip it and rip it"
Mainly cause it goes badly on my body and my injuries, but also because it's harder to keep timing when you get more and more into doing that.

And.. Man, these young kids who are just having disc golf click with them. I got 2 words for them "Tonya Harding."

Moving along. hahaha.


I cannot really say/know enough on the "heavy" feeling.
But my personal opinion is, cause this one dummy on the internet was teaching it as "this is what you need to feel" and he was talking about feeling that blood flow/rush to your fingers, etc.

Yeah, thats not what you're looking for.
I can tell you when your timing hits and you get it right, that disc will fly in a way you're like "oh I'm not used to that disc doing that"
Usually right until it hits the tree at 70mph vs your normal 55.

I do want to experiment more with the hammer drill stuff. I don't usually use a hammer, I usually use a 3 foot long 1x2.

There is just so much great stuff out there, and I'm a bit lazy to mess with it sometimes, cause my attention span is weird.

 

[RowingBoats]

You're stuck in that area I live in as well.

The only time I start breaking 380-400 is when I really get the nose down and get the discs to work and fly properly not stalling at apex, but pushing at apex.

It's absolutely frustrating to some extent, I can throw almost every disc in my bag 300 feet.

But then start trying to move drivers out a bit further and... sometimes it's just not there and its so annoying.

And it really is some weird stuff in this range, and some people are so natural at getting the nose down for the easy distance.

Now, let me state as well, I am never looking to throw passed 60-70% when I throw. I have to many injuries, so I'm never trying to "grip it and rip it"
Mainly cause it goes badly on my body and my injuries, but also because it's harder to keep timing when you get more and more into doing that.

And.. Man, these young kids who are just having disc golf click with them. I got 2 words for them "Tonya Harding."

Moving along. hahaha.


I cannot really say/know enough on the "heavy" feeling.
But my personal opinion is, cause this one dummy on the internet was teaching it as "this is what you need to feel" and he was talking about feeling that blood flow/rush to your fingers, etc.

Yeah, thats not what you're looking for.
I can tell you when your timing hits and you get it right, that disc will fly in a way you're like "oh I'm not used to that disc doing that"
Usually right until it hits the tree at 70mph vs your normal 55.

I do want to experiment more with the hammer drill stuff. I don't usually use a hammer, I usually use a 3 foot long 1x2.

There is just so much great stuff out there, and I'm a bit lazy to mess with it sometimes, cause my attention span is weird.

The blood-rush thing seems legit to me. Not as a goal, but it certainly is a biproduct of capturing powerful acceleration in the right place. Prickly fingers from hyper extending the elbow are not good though.

The same principle applies to something like...swinging a small child by their arms/ankles. If you really wanted to accelerate that, you wouldn't 'spin faster'. You would dip with gravity and pump it, and that causes an extremely powerful acceleration that moves blood to the extremities.

 

[Sheep]

The blood-rush thing seems legit to me. Not as a goal, but it certainly is a biproduct of capturing powerful acceleration in the right place. Prickly fingers from hyper extending the elbow are not good though.

The same principle applies to something like...swinging a small child by their arms/ankles. If you really wanted to accelerate that, you wouldn't 'spin faster'. You would dip with gravity and pump it, and that causes an extremely powerful acceleration that moves blood to the extremities.

any time i've thrown and gotten the "blood rush" its because I was rounding and not leveraging, the acceleration over a wide arc vs leveraging the disc gave enough time for blood to rush to my fingers causing a lot of pain and discomfort, and the disc to not go anywhere.

Now, I do know somebody who talks about this who throws 600+ and he's a younger fella, and he says this only happens when he gives it everything he can.
And that's not really a logical thing to do all round, but only at very specific instances.

So, is it possible? yes, but I don't think that it should be anything we are striving for.

I think wiggins, simon or eagle would be good people to ask this question, and I'd venture a guess that simon will say no, and eagle and wiggins would say yes.

 

[sidewinder22]

I only get the blood rush sting warming up a few shots when around 50 degrees or colder.

 

[Brychanus]

I think wiggins, simon or eagle would be good people to ask this question, and I'd venture a guess that simon will say no, and eagle and wiggins would say yes.

Interesting that you said this: could be another example of me "seeing ghosts" - but it evoked these thoughts about the late kinetic chain:

When I watch Simon vs. e.g. Eagle at even approach distances like the new vid here, it does look like Simon's late kinetic chain (at least) is a little different than Eagle's. Very subtle, but Eagle's looks a little more... effortful or rigid or harsh or something. Wiggins often looks like he's trying to spear someone at max distance with a javelin over most of the distances I see him throw, including at short range.




I've been learning a lot from Wiggins' form recently, but even as I try to onboard lessons from his mechanics, overall I'd probably want to move more like a Simon or Paul Oman than an Eagle or Wiggins. Here I'm making the major assumption there that Simon's elbow problem is mostly just overuse + abuse rather than technique. Eagle's is ostensibly linked more to FH stress (before and after the 360 accident) so not sure what otherwise to think on the effort/wear and tear front.

 

[Sad2980]

I've also researched the incomplete technique and have been struggling to find snap for the last couple of years. This winter I practiced hammer pound drills daily and when the season started I felt like I was beginning to get some snap on my lower effort throws. For me it seems like the snap comes from proper positioning AND timing. I have a horrible problem of "pulling" too soon which causes all sorts of issues. When I throw low effort shots and focus on feeling the hit, I can really feel the spin. Unfortunately, the harder/faster I try to throw (i.e. any distance over 200 ft or disc speed 7 or higher) my old issues come back and I pull the disc and miss the hit. It seems to me that you can hit all the correct positions and your form may look ok on camera, but without correct timing, the disc comes out with very little spin and loses its gyroscopic flight properties. Lately I've been trying to think of the disc as both a wing and gyroscope which has helped me put more emphasis on creating spin with correct form. I'm starting to think what makes the pros so good is that they can keep the position and timing correct even at maximum arm speed where the rest of us have trouble the faster we try to throw. I love watching Ricky Wysocki and Matty O throw lately. To me, their form is slightly different from most pros and I can see the timing more apparently. To me it looks almost like the beto drill in fast-forward.

 

[NoseDownKing]

Interesting that you said this: could be another example of me "seeing ghosts" - but it evoked these thoughts about the late kinetic chain:

When I watch Simon vs. e.g. Eagle at even approach distances like the new vid here, it does look like Simon's late kinetic chain (at least) is a little different than Eagle's. Very subtle, but Eagle's looks a little more... effortful or rigid or harsh or something. Wiggins often looks like he's trying to spear someone at max distance with a javelin over most of the distances I see him throw, including at short range.




I've been learning a lot from Wiggins' form recently, but even as I try to onboard lessons from his mechanics, overall I'd probably want to move more like a Simon or Paul Oman than an Eagle or Wiggins. Here I'm making the major assumption there that Simon's elbow problem is mostly just overuse + abuse rather than technique. Eagle's is ostensibly linked more to FH stress (before and after the 360 accident) so not sure what otherwise to think on the effort/wear and tear front.

Simon might extend his arm a little late. Potentially gets more distance with a quicker change of acceleration/jerk, but hurts his tendons.

Using this as source and I think it applies to backhand aswell:

https://youtu.be/7qSZAaOK3hk

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

 

[Sheep]

I've been learning a lot from Wiggins' form recently, but even as I try to onboard lessons from his mechanics, overall I'd probably want to move more like a Simon or Paul Oman than an Eagle or Wiggins. Here I'm making the major assumption there that Simon's elbow problem is mostly just overuse + abuse rather than technique. Eagle's is ostensibly linked more to FH stress (before and after the 360 accident) so not sure what otherwise to think on the effort/wear and tear front.

I'm going to sound a bit... uhh harsh here, its not.

Eagle is a very aggressive player vs simon who is more of a finesse player, which is funny to say cause Simon throws so far, but he naturally has an understanding that others dont.

And by aggressive, i mean with his body. What he does is far more violent and stretching the limits. And I believe this is partly a result of his really unique upbringing.
I have been honestly waiting for the fore hand injury to come, and I dont believe it was solely based on the 360 part, but he's been hyperextending his arm so much that it was only a matter of time. The violence of his forehand was astounding and the results were amazing, only to be confronted by people time and time again with "eagle has the best forehand." No, eagle has an amazing forehand that will hurt him in the long run. That is not necessarily the "best."
And I'ma bring up Oakley again. Oakley has one of the BEST forehands. His forehand is amazingly clean and the amount of power he does have which he rarely shows off is outstanding.
But oakley is a duck duck squirrel golfer, as soon as he's off track, he's done.
He is my buddy too, and he's a fantastic individual. I just wish I could kick him right square in the ghaooonies every time he gets in his own head, because all the skill is there to be a top golfer, but not the mindset.

I think the takeaway I'm trying to bring here is you can be really good at something and perform better results than others, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're doing it the best.

lets take for instance some carpentry stuff.
You can make amazing things, especially if you learn to hide things that nobody see's.
Does it mean its the best? No. Because there are others out there who are putting the effort into those details you're not bothering with because they cannot be seen.
Part of "good form" (to me anyways) is performing in a fashion that is consistent and allows you to continue that same form for a long period with out injury.

We can make fun of hokom all we want cause her form looks so dorky, but she's hitting the key forehand points, has insane forehand control vs other forehand players, and she rarely gets hurt.

 

[Sheep]

I've also researched the incomplete technique and have been struggling to find snap for the last couple of years. This winter I practiced hammer pound drills daily and when the season started I felt like I was beginning to get some snap on my lower effort throws. For me it seems like the snap comes from proper positioning AND timing. I have a horrible problem of "pulling" too soon which causes all sorts of issues. When I throw low effort shots and focus on feeling the hit, I can really feel the spin. Unfortunately, the harder/faster I try to throw (i.e. any distance over 200 ft or disc speed 7 or higher) my old issues come back and I pull the disc and miss the hit. It seems to me that you can hit all the correct positions and your form may look ok on camera, but without correct timing, the disc comes out with very little spin and loses its gyroscopic flight properties. Lately I've been trying to think of the disc as both a wing and gyroscope which has helped me put more emphasis on creating spin with correct form. I'm starting to think what makes the pros so good is that they can keep the position and timing correct even at maximum arm speed where the rest of us have trouble the faster we try to throw. I love watching Ricky Wysocki and Matty O throw lately. To me, their form is slightly different from most pros and I can see the timing more apparently. To me it looks almost like the beto drill in fast-forward.

Part of disc golf, annoyingly, is understanding that "throwing hard" is not what you need to do.

How hard you can throw means absolutely nothing if you cannot hit the timing to put that energy into the disc.
Which is why when we slow down, things flow better and our dance is cleaner.

The brain says "MOAR POWER" to go further, but the reality of that is untrue.

Plus we can look at this as "clean power" and "dirty power" blah blah.

I have many people I have helped where it was "slow down, your swing is good, but you're trying to hard" and when they finally slow down just that little bit, they gain 50 feet.

Why?
Because timing and effort.
When we try and engage our muscle groups to hard, we basically cause dirty power and we dont allow the flow to happen as our body isn't engaging the muscle groups in a way that create that clean power into the disc.

 

[timothy42b]

I've had the habit of going back through the old DGR Forums and re-reading almost every popular thread from back then in order to find that elusive Snap. It feels like that is something that is not talked about enough these days. Probably because there was no easy way to teach it. I can do hammer pound drills all day without know how to properly incorporate it into my throw.

I play with someone who throws nearly as far as me without doing any of the body mechanics I've worked on. She does something right with the arm and hand but I can't see what it is. Can't get a photo, she won't throw if my phone is out. I guess I don't need one, it's probably the same thing Paul does and there's lots of video of him.

Dr Scott Lynn made a comment in one of his biomechanics ball golf videos, to the effect that some people don't do the kinetic chain very well but play pretty good golf if their hands are working right, but the opposite doesn't work.

 

[Sheep]

I play with someone who throws nearly as far as me without doing any of the body mechanics I've worked on. She does something right with the arm and hand but I can't see what it is. Can't get a photo, she won't throw if my phone is out. I guess I don't need one, it's probably the same thing Paul does and there's lots of video of him.

Dr Scott Lynn made a comment in one of his biomechanics ball golf videos, to the effect that some people don't do the kinetic chain very well but play pretty good golf if their hands are working right, but the opposite doesn't work.

you saying they have what looks like an incomplete swing, but they have decent distance?

Part of that is the wrist and kinetic chain as has been mentioned. we can see this in action with simon and paul as they can effortlessly throw 200+ with putters like they are just tossing it 10 feet.

part of the other thing probably has to do with nose angle. Some people naturally throw nose down. (curse you people, you suck) and with that they gain really easy distance vs people like me who have the mechanics to throw really far, but struggle to keep the nose down enough to get the proper disc flight.

 

[RowingBoats]

you saying they have what looks like an incomplete swing, but they have decent distance?

Part of that is the wrist and kinetic chain as has been mentioned. we can see this in action with simon and paul as they can effortlessly throw 200+ with putters like they are just tossing it 10 feet.

part of the other thing probably has to do with nose angle. Some people naturally throw nose down. (curse you people, you suck) and with that they gain really easy distance vs people like me who have the mechanics to throw really far, but struggle to keep the nose down enough to get the proper disc flight.

What kind of issues do you have with nose angle with otherwise sound mechanics? For me nose up was almost 100% caused by my poor timing overall. I do throw with a two finger grip on distance lines, maybe that eliminates a lot of possible wrist/grip issues that can cause it.

 

[Sheep]

What kind of issues do you have with nose angle with otherwise sound mechanics? For me nose up was almost 100% caused by my poor timing overall. I do throw with a two finger grip on distance lines, maybe that eliminates a lot of possible wrist/grip issues that can cause it.

I'm not sure if its injuries or just how my joints move.
But throwing nose down requires waaaay more effort than I believe it should. I can still hit 350 with a nose up throw, sometimes 400.
So I'm getting more than enough power into the disc. But I can tell by constantly changing flights with discs that my nose control is really poor. Some days discs flip lots and I can reach 450, other days discs that flip never flip and 350 it is.

I've spent some time looking into it, and it's just... weird.
Even spent time talking to sidewinder about it when I was trying different grips.

 

[timothy42b]

you saying they have what looks like an incomplete swing, but they have decent distance?

Part of that is the wrist and kinetic chain as has been mentioned.

There's no torso rotation. She leans it linearly back and forward (head back over rear foot on backswing, then forward towards front foot.) Throwing arm flaps at the shoulder. I think all the power is forearm and wrist. But it's usually nose down and flies pretty straight.

Once in a while when I'm stuck in a bush I get a half decent throw that way too.

 

[Sheep]

There's no torso rotation. She leans it linearly back and forward (head back over rear foot on backswing, then forward towards front foot.) Throwing arm flaps at the shoulder. I think all the power is forearm and wrist. But it's usually nose down and flies pretty straight.

Once in a while when I'm stuck in a bush I get a half decent throw that way too.

oh, the rebecca cox swing?

 

[Brychanus]

Dr Scott Lynn made a comment in one of his biomechanics ball golf videos, to the effect that some people don't do the kinetic chain very well but play pretty good golf if their hands are working right, but the opposite doesn't work.

Makes sense, leaking leverage late in the chain such as at the wrist can screw up the yield of otherwise good form. Conversely, good late leverage maximizes what you get from faulty upstream mechanics.

 

[Brychanus]

There's something to learn at every age and experience level.