Disc Golf Expectations and Pushing your Limits

[Rastnav]

I feel like he is talking about exactly what we are, which...I know doesn't help your inquiry here lol.

I could also have said something wrong. Maybe people do hold on until the 4'oclock position, it just wasn't achieved with any kind of extreme, last second acceleration.

LoopGhost: The half-hit is when you release it at 4 o'clock. The hit is a half hit with with the right (not really explained) timing.
BryanChanus: If you swing through, you've done it.
RowingBoats: Everybody hits if they "release the disc from their body" (what does that even mean)?

You may think you guys are saying the same thing, but not from where I am sitting.

 

[Rastnav]

It's similar. I think Loopghost may illustrate and emphasize some of the arm action and related posture details a little differently than others. In any case, let your arm be pulled taut in the backswing. Swing. Let the posture bring the disc closer to the body resisting collapse into your chest. Leverage it out like swinging a hammer or weight.

See, when I look at the pictures you posted of sw22 with the hammer, what I see is collapse of the arm angle. He appears to be using his plant leg to allow the weight to then uncollapse the arm angle well after the elbow has extended.

I know this stuff is helpful to lots of people, but .. I can't make it make sense. And more importantly, I can't seem to make it work.

And the pictures of Simon and someone else with arms fully extended? Those don't seem to track with a late release of the elbow at all. Like, if they weren't throwing that big hyzer? And we're more upright, and had their arm fully extended when there chest was 90 degrees to the target?

The point isn't that I think what people are saying is wrong. It's that the various images seem to clash with various statements and make it hard to understand.

 

[Rastnav]

I feel like he is talking about exactly what we are, which...I know doesn't help your inquiry here lol.

I could also have said something wrong. Maybe people do hold on until the 4'oclock position, it just wasn't achieved with any kind of extreme, last second acceleration.

Also, just to be clear, I don't view "the hit" as some magic key, nor do I want to concentrate too much on that one thing. It was just a point to illustrate a general frustration.

 

[RowingBoats]

LoopGhost: The half-hit is when you release it at 4 o'clock. The hit is a half hit with with the right (not really explained) timing.
BryanChanus: If you swing through, you've done it.
RowingBoats: Everybody hits if they "release the disc from their body" (what does that even mean)?

You may think you guys are saying the same thing, but not from where I am sitting.

My "everybody hits" comment was just meant to say this isn't an on/off thing, there is a spectrum. Perhaps some swings should be considered so inefficient to actually say there is nohit, but I don't know.

The backhand is a complex move when you try to take it apart, but there is a FEELING to what I am talking about, not just an intellectual concept.

Go up to a wall, or imagine a wall, perpendicular to your line, and about where your release point should be. Ball your fist, and imagine your hand and forearm are the head and handle of a hammer, and your elbow is holding it. Picture a nail, or a super firm button on the wall, and you have to hit it as hard as you can with your hammer-hand. How are you going do do this? In what ways can you make it hit that button harder? Do the things you naturally start doing resemble some of the mechanics discussed for the backhand?

I think it will be easier to orient your hand so your pinky side is the head of the hammer, and I know this isn't 1:1 with the orientation of holding a disc, but this is all the same concept.
Its possible that won't help at all, just trying lol.

 

[Brychanus]

LoopGhost: The half-hit is when you release it at 4 o'clock. The hit is a half hit with with the right (not really explained) timing.
BryanChanus: If you swing through, you've done it.
RowingBoats: Everybody hits if they "release the disc from their body" (what does that even mean)?

You may think you guys are saying the same thing, but not from where I am sitting.

Getting somewhere. Since I've gotten myself into this I'll respond to each of these specific points and see what you & others thing.

LoopGhost: I (Brychanus) don't use clock positions, and the relative high-impact release points appear to vary based on player anatomy and overall form. Here I'd say work on building a swing that imparts high force by swinging through a target & don't get too bogged down on exact positions. Maybe that's a controversial statement.

Brychanus: I'm saying that all completed swings have hits. The quality of the swing and resulting force is on a continuum. Good mechanics cause good hits.

RowingBoats: I think this is the same as saying "All swings have hits" because we agree that there is a release. However...

It could be that RB and I are using the word "hit" slightly differently than the way others have. To help you out of your circle, I'm trying to get away from the word "hit" to focus on achieving a high-quality swing that imparts maximal force on the disc, and noting that all high-quality sports swings aim to swing through a target. LoopGhost & similar sources seem to mean the "full hit" is the relative position the disc is in the swing and the point at which maximum force is achieved. So I'm saying that yes, I think that there is a conceptual "full hit" relative to your posture, but that learning to swing through the target for maximal force helps you build form like in other sports.

 

[RowingBoats]

And the pictures of Simon and someone else with arms fully extended? .

There is a huge difference between literally fully extended, and nearly fully extended in this context. I can generate some pretty serious power with the 'straight arm' or wide-rail swing, but the exact same lagged detachment feeling occurs. The elbow still releases, and the final wrist lever still accelerates at the end.

 

[Al Dente]

but·ter·fly ef·fect
noun
(in chaos theory) the phenomenon whereby a minute localized change in a complex system can have large effects elsewhere.

If you examine the movements of great disc golfers (as has been done here often with some wonderful graphics, my thanks to all of you that have gone to the trouble) it's clear that many of them are very similar from the right pec through release. How they come to be in that position, however, varies greatly. And, imho, those unique and identifiable movements which lead them to that position are very important for them. I have made this argument before and others were dismissive of it. Timing, coordination and balance are what ultimately produce a good throw, and they are easy to see in the fluid movements of a good disc golfer. However, when someone has ineffective, though not necessarily ugly form, it can be difficult to determine what needs to be changed and what can be left alone. This is why advice is so hard to give, and performance gains are so difficult to come by.

And some of us are never going to get it right regardless of when we started or how tirelessly we're willing to work. Brychanus said something similar in one of his posts.

 

[bryantlikes]

It is hard to visual full hit vs half hit and what it means with a disc since nothing is actually hit.

With a hammer it is easy.

Obviously the half hit will still hit the nail, but the amount of force will be much less than the full hit because the hit happens before all the potential is realized.

Transferring this to the disc golf swing if you don't have the correct release point (hit) then you will be missing out on the potential energy in the same way.

At least this is how I think about it.

 

[Brychanus]

See, when I look at the pictures you posted of sw22 with the hammer, what I see is collapse of the arm angle. He appears to be using his plant leg to allow the weight to then uncollapse the arm angle well after the elbow has extended.

I know this stuff is helpful to lots of people, but .. I can't make it make sense. And more importantly, I can't seem to make it work.

And the pictures of Simon and someone else with arms fully extended? Those don't seem to track with a late release of the elbow at all. Like, if they weren't throwing that big hyzer? And we're more upright, and had their arm fully extended when there chest was 90 degrees to the target?

The point isn't that I think what people are saying is wrong. It's that the various images seem to clash with various statements and make it hard to understand.

I think you'd have to get SW's response about his own mechanics. Those stillframes do not include one synced to the release - last one is just after. He's also on the stouter end of the spectrum esp. compared to those two, so that may matter when he swings toward and away from his center of gravity. Here's one a little closer to the same point:

Getting away from the static images, what I'm indicating there is that you want the arm to be pulled taut in the backswing against the center of gravity moving forward. You want to swing forward, and if your posture and legs are working the way they should, the disc will approach your center of gravity. The arm will start to learn to resist collapsing into your chest. As the chain continues the swing, it will swing out into the release. Some people learn this dynamic other ways focused more on pulling, but the idea is that you get a stretched arm pulled taut through the swing. It is why when I swing hammers or discs now if my arm does not maintain tautness it will hit me in the chest. I think SW was right when he clued me into this vid and it's the best explanation I've encountered of what you're looking for in the arm's role. The arm only does its role best when other things are working well too, of course:




Not sure what you meant about Simon's elbow angle and a late release. I think some of that might be cued by differences in the stillframes you saw of sw22 there, but the idea is that he's swinging and the arm swings narrow toward him, then he continues the swing out and away into the release. Some have noted that his late swing is maybe quite late relative to others & probably related to his power:

 

[Brychanus]

It is hard to visual full hit vs half hit and what it means with a disc since nothing is actually hit.

With a hammer it is easy.

Obviously the half hit will still hit the nail, but the amount of force will be much less than the full hit because the hit happens before all the potential is realized.

Transferring this to the disc golf swing if you don't have the correct release point (hit) then you will be missing out on the potential energy in the same way.

At least this is how I think about it.

Photos are worth 1000 words <3

Just to further either clarify or confuse everyone, what I meant is not exactly this distinction. I meant that even if the hammer is oriented to the nail the same way (like the top image under your "full hit"), you can learn to hit the nail in that orientation with a very high-impact swing when learning to swing through the nail with good form. You could also hit it in that orientation with a more effortful, weaker swing without learning to swing through the nail. However, it is likely that the second thing is usually (always) happening too when a person is not generating and transferring peak force (first 16s most relevant but this was fun):

 

[Rastnav]

I think you'd have to get SW's response about his own mechanics. Those stillframes do not include one synced to the release - last one is just after. He's also on the stouter end of the spectrum esp. compared to those two, so that may matter when he swings toward and away from his center of gravity. Here's one a little closer to the same point:

I wasn't talking about his swing with the disc. I was talking about his swing with the hammer. His arm angle is quite a bit different than with just the disc. Each point in the swing looks like a very different thing than the disc swing.

Let's just make this easier, perhaps.

Should I have felt the hit here? What does it look like to you? (queue Westworld: "That doesn't look like anything to me.")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTY4liVnxpE

 

[RowingBoats]

I wasn't talking about his swing with the disc. I was talking about his swing with the hammer. His arm angle is quite a bit different than with just the disc. Each point in the swing looks like a very different thing than the disc swing.

Let's just make this easier, perhaps.

Should I have felt the hit here? What does it look like to you? (queue Westworld: "That doesn't look like anything to me.")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTY4liVnxpE

I am not a guru of form analysis, but this is the position that I would say is the problem I see. This is the 'rounding' position, you need to make more room for the real power to happen with a wider upper arm angle.

It does feel weird at first, but you want that angle to be 90 degrees or more the ENTIRE swing.

 

[blayed]

Hmmmm.....I did not know Mike had moved out to Cali. Not friends, but sure chewed some of the same dirt through the years. Super nice guy and a terrific golfer.

I am not sure turning your game over to rollers works in many parts of the country, but it would in LA.

I should clarify he was good for an airshot to at least 400' but on the holes that were in the 450ft range he was throwing rollers (and he was very good at them to boot). Nice guy. Gave me some tips for certain shot shapes

 

[Brychanus]

I wasn't talking about his swing with the disc. I was talking about his swing with the hammer. His arm angle is quite a bit different than with just the disc. Each point in the swing looks like a very different thing than the disc swing.

Let's just make this easier, perhaps.

Should I have felt the hit here? What does it look like to you? (queue Westworld: "That doesn't look like anything to me.")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTY4liVnxpE

Aha gotcha. I think he would say that part of the difference is the leverage point on the hammer and its weight relative to the disc. I'm still working on the late leverage myself right now so I'll I'll update w/ any new nuggets

For your swing there I agree w/RB that there's some rounding and I think you're stacked up swinging too flat overall. The pros that do go less than 90 still have way more space to swing. You are in a slight horse stance and need to make more room to swing your shoulder back and forth over the front knee. You are probably not getting a good pump from your lead leg in that posture too. Set up more like this and then swing the arm from your shoulder forward and back with the tilt:



I like how Clement talks through it here:



The arm itself may or may not figure it out with these changes.

 

[Sheep]

I played half a round with Mike Raley, who is an MP50 World champion. He won DGLO twice in the mid 2000s. In his mid 50s and still 950 rated. One thing I noticed is besides the fact that everything he does is solid, ie C1 and C2 putting, FH and BH with all shot shapes, is that he told me for max distance instead of power air shots he does a lot of rollers now (FH and BH). YMMV but seems like good advice. Inspired me to practice my rollers a lot recently.

Rollers are all of it. I've been schooled by OG's and rollers myself. The only downside to them is the grass length or if there is fairway grass fluff.
One of the local courses where I throw and practice rollers a lot, they started mowing the grass taller now, and.. it just eats the rollers up.

I think asking on facebook and reddit are places to find local players/coaches. Maybe some will have recs here. DG coaching is still in its infancy and there is a lot of confusing and often conflicting info out there. I continue to learn a ton from SW22's style but my form critique attests that I continue to benefit from a lot of remote coaching. Getting my drills critiqued always helps a ton.

Disc golf coaching is super unique as were able to glean more information from a video than in person. It's easy to see what a person is doing with a golf club and correct them. Disc golf has so many more moving parts to do practically the exact same motion 1 handed, but with no club to actually show the extension and a bunch of other mechanics, and then no consistency with something like a ball to watch the flight trajectory. etc.

The coaching aspect of disc golf gets me far more excited than most things though. I enjoy watching people improve.

As to facebook, that's how I got to the local pro. The recommendation for coaching from the local disc golf group was two specific pros, one of whom is full time on DGPT so wasn't actually available. Maybe he would be a better fit for me, but maybe not. IDK, maybe there are more people now.

There are very few touring pro's that can give you any solid form advice. They have pieces of the puzzle they can give you, and those are good, but overall form advice they cannot. Basically what you learn from touring pro's is their idea of what the most important part of the swing is to them.
They have no clue how to help correct most peoples issues and work with their body shapes/types/athletic ability and more. They know what works for them, and some tips and tricks to get you a bit better. But to build a swing from scratch with you, or figure out what your disconnect is, they usually cannot.

Such as like here locally for me. I have multiple good players here 1000+ rated. They are fantastic people, intelligent. I'd not trust any of them to help me with my swing even though they can crush me in the ground. Not only are they built insanely different than I am, I know them personally and they don't have conventional form, or they just are not as interested in that aspect.

Coaches are generally people who have a great understanding, but not necessarily the ability to put all the pieces together for themselves. Such as me. I have a lot of understanding, but to many injuries to really be good at disc golf. My body can only take so much and I'm walking like i'm 60 years old and taking aleve just to get through the day.

But the down side is, not everyone is willing to listen to help when they are struggling on the course because "I don't beat them" good enough or something. Though, it does make it good when they say it out loud. because. Then I can release the kraken. But its more like "showboat Simon" than "paul mcbeth."

 

[Brychanus]

Here's an example of Seabas22 Slash Thru drill using a hammer.



Notice that I am swinging to hit through the bag, which requires me to have good posture and spacing or I will hurt myself. You will recognize the difference between swinging at vs. swinging through very quickly if you do something like this. I took it slow to figure out where to stand before I started swinging faster and then got into a rhythm.

Also notice that I'm loading up a backswing and have Figure 8 motion in my hips. My weight is shifting to lead the swing and my rear arm and leg are countering the motion into the bag strikes.

I'm showing this to illustrate that the "full hit" idea benefits from all these kinetics and mechanics upstream to the disc release or literal bag hit. This is what I think SW22 is trying to teach with his hammer and blade drills.

When I put a disc in my hand the idea is still to leverage out and swing through the target. I don't feel like I'm working hard at all (though you will get tired eventually and should stop).

My body did not understand any of this late swing action fully until I literally hit my bag with a hammer this morning using all the other kinetics. You can practice the swing on just one leg too if you don't have the other mechanics to help your body figure out how to lever out the arm. I expect I'm still going to need a couple weeks doing this and being patient getting similar leverage on the disc consistently, but this really was eye-opening (and it's really fun!).

 

[Rastnav]

Aha gotcha. I think he would say that part of the difference is the leverage point on the hammer and its weight relative to the disc. I'm still working on the late leverage myself right now so I'll I'll update w/ any new nuggets

For your swing there I agree w/RB that there's some rounding and I think you're stacked up swinging too flat overall.

OK, I'm not trying to turn this into a "Rastnav's form review thread". Hopefully I haven't derailed it too much.

I was trying to speak to a more general issue, and I think this illustrated it. I asked a question about the hit. Neither of you mention it in your replies. The concept retreats as it is approached. That was the more general lament, that if, as a learner you don't already get it on your own, you aren't helped by referencing one concept or the other. And everyone uses the terms to mean something different. See https://youtu.be/nOjDIfRLgo4.

Bryan, I think the way you are using "hit" (and kinetic chain), they simply become synonymous with "swing". I would certainly agree that it's useful to import concepts from more developed sport performance analysis, but that doesn't change that we are still just talking about how to swing. I also think that this isn't generally what people mean by talking about the hit.

As to whether I'm rounding or not, I don't believe I am. My release is straight down the line.
https://youtu.be/G_4yUd_PTgQ

Whether my release should be straight down the line of my run up? I wonder about that. Probably a different topic.

Now, am I collapsed under 90? Yes, but see my issues with the hammer swing as a means of teaching you not to collapse. Also, I may still be pulling early. I've struggled with it and I honestly don't know where I am with that. In that bow and arrow video, sw22 mentioned delaying the activation that intrinsically comes from the stretch, but I don't know that I know how to do that.

In addition, we have to add in the factor that my hips have less mobility and my shoulders have more. My PT buddy (who knows next to nothing about DG, to be clear) has said that necessarily means that positionally I'll look different in order to get the same loaded stretch. Analysis that is position dependent is necessarily flawed when you have two different body compositions.

This all goes back to the desire to have hands on interactive feedback that can competently teach the swing to someone who doesn't match the ideal thrower. But I don't know that this exists at the moment. Or if it does, those people are so overloaded that it's the same thing. Hell, I'd travel for a swing bootcamp. The only person I've seen offering anything like that is Stokely, and, well, see the issues with those who can do trying to teach.

 

[Rastnav]

There are very few touring pro's that can give you any solid form advice. They have pieces of the puzzle they can give you, and those are good, but overall form advice they cannot. Basically what you learn from touring pro's is their idea of what the most important part of the swing is to them.

They have no clue how to help correct most peoples issues and work with their body shapes/types/athletic ability and more. They know what works for them, and some tips and tricks to get you a bit better. But to build a swing from scratch with you, or figure out what your disconnect is, they usually cannot.

Yes, this is what I as getting at.

 

[RowingBoats]

OK, I'm not trying to turn this into a "Rastnav's form review thread". Hopefully I haven't derailed it too much.

I was trying to speak to a more general issue, and I think this illustrated it. I asked a question about the hit. Neither of you mention it in your replies. The concept retreats as it is approached. That was the more general lament, that if, as a learner you don't already get it on your own, you aren't helped by referencing one concept or the other. And everyone uses the terms to mean something different. See https://youtu.be/nOjDIfRLgo4.

Bryan, I think the way you are using "hit" (and kinetic chain), they simply become synonymous with "swing". I would certainly agree that it's useful to import concepts from more developed sport performance analysis, but that doesn't change that we are still just talking about how to swing. I also think that this isn't generally what people mean by talking about the hit.

As to whether I'm rounding or not, I don't believe I am. My release is straight down the line.
https://youtu.be/G_4yUd_PTgQ

Whether my release should be straight down the line of my run up? I wonder about that. Probably a different topic.

Now, am I collapsed under 90? Yes, but see my issues with the hammer swing as a means of teaching you not to collapse. Also, I may still be pulling early. I've struggled with it and I honestly don't know where I am with that. In that bow and arrow video, sw22 mentioned delaying the activation that intrinsically comes from the stretch, but I don't know that I know how to do that.

In addition, we have to add in the factor that my hips have less mobility and my shoulders have more. My PT buddy (who knows next to nothing about DG, to be clear) has said that necessarily means that positionally I'll look different in order to get the same loaded stretch. Analysis that is position dependent is necessarily flawed when you have two different body compositions.

This all goes back to the desire to have hands on interactive feedback that can competently teach the swing to someone who doesn't match the ideal thrower. But I don't know that this exists at the moment. Or if it does, those people are so overloaded that it's the same thing. Hell, I'd travel for a swing bootcamp. The only person I've seen offering anything like that is Stokely, and, well, see the issues with those who can do trying to teach.

We are talking about it, but I agree this is a hard thing to 'get' for some reason.

You definitely are rounding, and you can actually see it in several frames around the image I took. The fact that you do release on the line seen here means that there was little chance for a solid hit.

You look pretty controlled here, so this is probably a useful swing for playing, but do you ever shank 40 degrees right and throw much farther than usual on accident? You might not because you do look like this is controlled, but that is a thing that can demonstrate a bit of what I'm talking about.

Maybe try playing with extreme anti-rounding for a while to see if you can develop a different feel for the swing. I really am no expert, and I definitely might say things that are wrong or difficult to make use of, but from my perspective and playing with doing it myself, rounding indicates a different idea of the swing entirely to me.

You want to find a way to feel like you are pushing the disc away. All of this definitely orbits the concept of 'hitting'.

 

[Brychanus]

OK, I'm not trying to turn this into a "Rastnav's form review thread". Hopefully I haven't derailed it too much.

No worries, seems like every thread here meanders ;-) That's why I decided to settle in and write a form mechanics guide and share it. I can't remember where the hell I read or connected the dots between everything half the time. I appreciate these conversations and hope I'm not hindering you.

Agree w/ RB that there is some rounding and front side shoulder bunching/collapse. Remember that rounding like many form issues is along a continuum. You are slightly hugging yourself and not the disc. I still have a version of this problem. Don't confuse the straightness of release with swing plane or mechanics. Rounding is about the posture relative to the disc as you swing (1st two images here). That's why people look at high-level swing paths and get confused about whether pros are rounding or not. They aren't used to tracking how the posture and swing path relate to one another. I only really started to recognize and feel the difference in my own body from my dance posture and from swinging a hammer.

People who are skeptical of hammers or other swing aids often don't spend any serious time with them. When I swing in that shaolin hammer drill I showed above I MUST swing my shoulder more correctly out in front of me and under my chin in decent posture or I will injure it when trying to swing the 3lb mallet through contact with the bag. Swinging it without hitting something doesn't give my body any clear feedback. Doing it with a disc is not teaching me nearly as quickly because I don't know where the slash through or imaginary hit in front of me is. Watch videos of top players from behind and notice how similar the posture, motion, and relative spacing is as they swing into the release. I do not believe this is the only way to learn, but I learned more about snap this morning than in the past 4 weeks.

Your swing does have some rhythm and smoothness otherwise. Swinging a hammer or something else at a target to swing/slash through it safely will probably start to help with the issue on the frontside. It will not happen in one session and it may reveal other issues. It will change your posture and you will need to retrain your balance. The difference between a high snap swing and low snap swing is totally alarming at first.