Disc Golf Expectations and Pushing your Limits

[Brychanus]

Maybe try playing with extreme anti-rounding for a while to see if you can develop a different feel for the swing. I really am no expert, and I definitely might say things that are wrong or difficult to make use of, but from my perspective and playing with doing it myself, rounding indicates a different idea of the swing entirely to me.

I agree with "extreme anti-rounding" entirely as a learning aid. Feldberg uses a version of this due to prior physical issues and still throws in the low 400s because the rest of his kinetics are so good. Remember that sometimes you need to overexaggerate actions to find sweet spots. My hammer swings immediately came out too "anti-rounding" at first, but it helped me freewheel and feel the rhythm more. SW22 then threw Shaolin at me to help rein in the arm issues. I added the hammer hits on the bag today in Shaolin since I could not figure out what the hell my arm was swinging at without very clear feedback.

 

[RowingBoats]

Rollers are all of it. I've been schooled by OG's and rollers myself. The only downside to them is the grass length or if there is fairway grass fluff.
One of the local courses where I throw and practice rollers a lot, they started mowing the grass taller now, and.. it just eats the rollers up.



Disc golf coaching is super unique as were able to glean more information from a video than in person. It's easy to see what a person is doing with a golf club and correct them. Disc golf has so many more moving parts to do practically the exact same motion 1 handed, but with no club to actually show the extension and a bunch of other mechanics, and then no consistency with something like a ball to watch the flight trajectory. etc.

The coaching aspect of disc golf gets me far more excited than most things though. I enjoy watching people improve.




There are very few touring pro's that can give you any solid form advice. They have pieces of the puzzle they can give you, and those are good, but overall form advice they cannot. Basically what you learn from touring pro's is their idea of what the most important part of the swing is to them.
They have no clue how to help correct most peoples issues and work with their body shapes/types/athletic ability and more. They know what works for them, and some tips and tricks to get you a bit better. But to build a swing from scratch with you, or figure out what your disconnect is, they usually cannot.

Such as like here locally for me. I have multiple good players here 1000+ rated. They are fantastic people, intelligent. I'd not trust any of them to help me with my swing even though they can crush me in the ground. Not only are they built insanely different than I am, I know them personally and they don't have conventional form, or they just are not as interested in that aspect.

Coaches are generally people who have a great understanding, but not necessarily the ability to put all the pieces together for themselves. Such as me. I have a lot of understanding, but to many injuries to really be good at disc golf. My body can only take so much and I'm walking like i'm 60 years old and taking aleve just to get through the day.

But the down side is, not everyone is willing to listen to help when they are struggling on the course because "I don't beat them" good enough or something. Though, it does make it good when they say it out loud. because. Then I can release the kraken. But its more like "showboat Simon" than "paul mcbeth."

I definitely wonder what kind of in-person methods are possible. I think SW22 has laid everything you need out, in the best way I have seen, but you can also watch the videos and get the wrong idea.

I have no idea how to take someone from 400' of power to 550' of power myself. I do have something of an idea of taking people from 250' to 350' though, and it basically comes down to them actually understanding something akin to the closed-shoulder snap drill.

To go back a bit to the original discussion of expectations - this is one of the weird parts of this sport. There is something about the unintuitive nature of a disc golf swing that leads people, including me at first, to see throwing a disc 500' as actual black magic. The difference in a newbie swing and a huge bomber swing are just, incomparable. I think this leads people to think there is too much of a trick to things, and overlook that you have to also be super athletic and explosive to achieve true power.

I think this is why I made actual big progress when I shifted to that more athletic, feel-based paradigm. My expectations have definitely shifted wildly with regards to what I think I need to do to throw hard, and I definitely sympathize with those who are still trying to deliberately hit poses/positions to unlock a secret.

 

[Rastnav]

Maybe try playing with extreme anti-rounding for a while to see if you can develop a different feel for the swing.

I agree with "extreme anti-rounding" entirely as a learning aid.

Well, I think I was playing around with this? See the following post:

Alright slight confusion on an issue. I was trying to correct what looked like right arm/shoulder collapse in the backswing (< 90 degrees to shoulders). I was concentrating on pushing my arm out away from chest rather than straight back.

When I did that, I started immediately getting a massively "late" release, way right of my target line. In general, it seemed like I was getting an increase in velocity along with the late release. Whereas when I let myself just naturally go straight back, I am releasing right down the target line.

This is really confusing, because I thought hugging should promote a late release. But I'm getting the opposite effect.

Here are two throws with putters. The first is straight back/slightly collapsed, the second one pushed out/90 degrees. I have the exact same two throws both from behind and the side. Both throws went ~240.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEAzuzfHa8c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3HkIcepSxs

Now, am I still collapsing some in the second throw? Probably. Again, I don't know what effect hyper mobile shoulders have on this and whether it's even possible for me to be in the same place positionally as other people.

But, sw22 basically directed away from that. I said a little bit ago I'm beginning to wonder whether run-up line and release line should really even be the same, especially for me.

 

[RowingBoats]

The difference between a high snap swing and low snap swing is totally alarming at first.

It's almost annoying to have to re-learn if you just like playing the game as well while you try to improve form.

Just last night I was throwing my putters at the park. Finished my stack. It was super sunny so I got out my mako3 that is made in that bright pink plastic that absorbs the sun and looks super gangster in bright light, and accidentally yeeted it 80' too far into the gnarliest stuff near a creek.

Took me like 30m to find it and my legs itch today. Dang accidental snap.

 

[Rastnav]

But, sw22 basically directed away from that.

You can even see he posted a hammer drill picture where the shoulder is clearly less than 90 degrees. You keep telling me to do hammer drill to correct collapse. What am I supposed to do with that?

 

[Brychanus]

You can even see he posted a hammer drill picture where the shoulder is clearly less than 90 degrees. You keep telling me to do hammer drill to correct collapse. What am I supposed to do with that?

I'm trying to communicate that it's about the posture relative to the swing. Swing a hammer in golf-like posture and actually hit something.


Exhibit D (or whatever lol):

Notice the similarities in overall posture and alignments and that my hammer and Simon's disc are blurred entering the release ("hit"). The main difference is that Simon was swinging in a slightly steeper hyzer and higher line of play than I would be if I were throwing a disc so I rotated the image to be on a similar swing axis (he is tilted slightly more away from camera/counterbalancing deeper behind him).

Rastnav, notice also that I'm in a relatively medium neutral stance at setup. I still get a lot of power from this even when I'm not using a full width stance. I'm basically getting most of the power swinging on the front leg.

I **** you not guys. Swing a hammer.

 

[RowingBoats]

Well, I think I was playing around with this? See the following post:



Now, am I still collapsing some in the second throw? Probably. Again, I don't know what effect hyper mobile shoulders have on this and whether it's even possible for me to be in the same place positionally as other people.

But, sw22 basically directed away from that. I said a little bit ago I'm beginning to wonder whether run-up line and release line should really even be the same, especially for me.

The higher velocity rightward pulls are super common. I think everyone has to close off differently, and learn how to direct the actual power at a target line somewhat individually.

My swing is still 100% stand-still, and it is pretty dang closed off. If I generate power with my feet parallel, and expect the release line to match a line drawn across my toes, its going to go like 45 degrees right. I agree that this is a difficult aspect of the swing to grasp, and one that requires several changes to how you visualize aiming.

 

[Brychanus]

Well, I think I was playing around with this? See the following post:

Now, am I still collapsing some in the second throw? Probably. Again, I don't know what effect hyper mobile shoulders have on this and whether it's even possible for me to be in the same place positionally as other people.

But, sw22 basically directed away from that. I said a little bit ago I'm beginning to wonder whether run-up line and release line should really even be the same, especially for me.

I'm hearing you. I've had to adapt around some physical issues too. I've found swinging the arm to be the hardest issue just after working around through my knee issues for months. I think I've realized (from a coaching perspective) that the microfocus on some details can certainly backfire. I'm honing in on what I'm sharing right now because you can probably find a hammer that is a comfortable weight and start to swing it with your body naturally. Your arm path etc. will probably be a little different than mine or someone else's, but you're trying to get that high-leverage swing that doesn't hurt you when you swing through a target.

 

[Brychanus]

It's almost annoying to have to re-learn if you just like playing the game as well while you try to improve form.

Just last night I was throwing my putters at the park. Finished my stack. It was super sunny so I got out my mako3 that is made in that bright pink plastic that absorbs the sun and looks super gangster in bright light, and accidentally yeeted it 80' too far into the gnarliest stuff near a creek.

Took me like 30m to find it and my legs itch today. Dang accidental snap.

Nice! This started to happen to me a lot in the past two weeks. I was talking to my friend about snap trying to share some pointers and accidentally sent a Comet more than 100' past the shorty basket. That's why I'm obsessed with snap right now lol. I still view my x-step as mostly a rhythm and posture learning tool. The one leg hammer swings and hammer x-steps make so much more sense now but it's gonna take hard work.

 

[Brychanus]

My swing is still 100% stand-still, and it is pretty dang closed off. If I generate power with my feet parallel, and expect the release line to match a line drawn across my toes, its going to go like 45 degrees right. I agree that this is a difficult aspect of the swing to grasp, and one that requires several changes to how you visualize aiming.

Dunno if this is the same for you, but I've found that when I stand at the top of the tee and do a one-leg practice swing and walk backwards, it always helps my aim even though I'm constantly tinkering with my form. That way no matter how my release or form are doing that day I reduce my shanks.

I swear I'm not just fanboying SW22, it just turns out the guy has lots of good advice lol

 

[RowingBoats]

Dunno if this is the same for you, but I've found that when I stand at the top of the tee and do a one-leg practice swing and walk backwards, it always helps my aim even though I'm constantly tinkering with my form. That way no matter how my release or form are doing that day I reduce my shanks.

I swear I'm not just fanboying SW22, it just turns out the guy has lots of good advice lol

Oh I'll absolutely stan for SW22 he's definitely the goat of dissecting all of this.

I do similar addresses to what everyone seems to do. I seem to mimic a more complete end of the swing though. I like to actually extend my arm, and mimic the follow-through angle. SW22 does almost exactly what I do lol. Pros seem to do a condensed version instead.

My actual conscious thoughts during a swing are basically just...start the backswing dynamically, visualize pushing the disc to the line, and make sure my follow-through actually matches what Im trying to do. I have a weird tendency to sometimes follow-through on anhyzer and consciously not doing this helps me.

 

[Sheep]

I definitely wonder what kind of in-person methods are possible. I think SW22 has laid everything you need out, in the best way I have seen, but you can also watch the videos and get the wrong idea.

I have no idea how to take someone from 400' of power to 550' of power myself. I do have something of an idea of taking people from 250' to 350' though, and it basically comes down to them actually understanding something akin to the closed-shoulder snap drill.

To go back a bit to the original discussion of expectations - this is one of the weird parts of this sport. There is something about the unintuitive nature of a disc golf swing that leads people, including me at first, to see throwing a disc 500' as actual black magic. The difference in a newbie swing and a huge bomber swing are just, incomparable. I think this leads people to think there is too much of a trick to things, and overlook that you have to also be super athletic and explosive to achieve true power.

I think this is why I made actual big progress when I shifted to that more athletic, feel-based paradigm. My expectations have definitely shifted wildly with regards to what I think I need to do to throw hard, and I definitely sympathize with those who are still trying to deliberately hit poses/positions to unlock a secret.

The worse part of in person teaching is the amount of times you gotta watch somebody suck to catch that "thing" vs a video where you can repeat, slow down and what not.

Ball golf, i can watch you hit 1 or 2 balls and make a small correction that makes a huge difference. In disc golf I have to watch you throw 4 or 5 discs badly to catch even what the major mistake is, then watch you throw a few more times to see what's causing that mistake based on all the pieces of the puzzle that could cause it. It's absolutely frustrating to give lessons in person sometimes.

But then other times its super super easy. Most people want to just play the game, and that also makes it super hard for instruction. Unlike ball golf your clubs stay with you, you dont have to go pick them all up randomly and worry about forgetting them.

The balls are collected by somebody else and viola, win win win.

This is why net throwing should be a bit more of a thing. I can invite people over if they really really want to learn and have them throw in my shop into the net and record them right there and we can review it in real time and make corrections. This really is the best way you can teach in person by using all the tools about it.

As for pushing somebody to higher levels of power, I've gotten a few guys over 500, and 2 over 600.
But 90% of that was them, 10% of it was me. They worked on their form, they asked for help, they cleaned it up. They were hungry to smash, and omg can they smash. And its frustrating, cause I don't have the mentality to sit there and do that. The one guy would throw 500 or so discs into a blanket and keep recording and correcting and recording and correcting, and it got to the point where he was teaching me things whenever he had a breakthrough cause he just went full ham on learning. (He's slightly autistic also, so different focus level than us plebs)

The biggest things in a newbie swing to a bomber swing are this.
If you wanna look at it in more "pure forms" vs "throw disc hard go far."

The people who have learned to throw far have learned to maxamize their bodies potential into their levers and keep the nose down and control the angles of the disc coming out of their hand.
They have learned exactly when to engage the arm during the throw as well to add in the extra.

I think people want an easy solution a lot of times and feeling out the basics of the swing is easy, and you can teach people to a point, and help them clean up stuff. But that final secret sauce. The fast twitch muscles, and engaging them at the right time to stack mechanics over and over again to gain maximum leverage and maximum exit velocity, that stuff isn't really teachable to a certain extent if you ask me. You can guide people to it, but they have to be able to feel it out and learn and want to learn.

And on top of ALL those things, which I struggle with this one, is to not go into bad habbits.
Where I'll want to try for distance and. hahahaha. form, hahahahaha. Lets hulk smash this.
oh boy, now my shoulder hurts. great.

 

[Brychanus]

The one guy would throw 500 or so discs into a blanket and keep recording and correcting and recording and correcting ... (He's slightly autistic also, so different focus level than us plebs)

 

[timothy42b]

Here's an example of Seabas22 Slash Thru drill using a hammer.



Notice that I am swinging to hit through the bag, which requires me to have good posture and spacing or I will hurt myself.

Sorry but I have to ask about the arm orientation again. (because I was trying something yesterday suggested here and got a very sore outside of the elbow in about 30 seconds)

I can't see the head of the hammer clearly in that video. In another video you shared, with the reverse step, your hammer head was horizontal at both ends of the swing, pronated in backswing and supinated end of forward swing. (I think.)

When you're hitting the bag, are you using the head of the hammer like you would on a nail? and that means you are palm down? because it seems like with a disc in your hand it would be 90 degrees different.

 

[RowingBoats]

Sorry but I have to ask about the arm orientation again. (because I was trying something yesterday suggested here and got a very sore outside of the elbow in about 30 seconds)

I can't see the head of the hammer clearly in that video. In another video you shared, with the reverse step, your hammer head was horizontal at both ends of the swing, pronated in backswing and supinated end of forward swing. (I think.)

When you're hitting the bag, are you using the head of the hammer like you would on a nail? and that means you are palm down? because it seems like with a disc in your hand it would be 90 degrees different.

You definitely have to be careful with these drills, especially if you do things with no object in your hand at all.

Generating the feel of the swing doesn't rely on a particular wrist orientation. Someone once posted something like "try to throw a ball with back-hand form, but your palm is facing out away from your body". You can generate it in that position.

I wouldn't get too caught up on this aspect.

 

[Brychanus]

Sorry but I have to ask about the arm orientation again. (because I was trying something yesterday suggested here and got a very sore outside of the elbow in about 30 seconds)

I can't see the head of the hammer clearly in that video. In another video you shared, with the reverse step, your hammer head was horizontal at both ends of the swing, pronated in backswing and supinated end of forward swing. (I think.)

When you're hitting the bag, are you using the head of the hammer like you would on a nail? and that means you are palm down? because it seems like with a disc in your hand it would be 90 degrees different.

No need to apologize. I think my general lesson this week has been to get out of my head and let the hammer feedback teach me, including about avoiding discomfort. Here's a vid since it seems easier to discuss it while showing it at this point. I'm talking about penduluming, then the arm action into the release point/hit, and finally how it transfers to the disc:



The disc and hammer are not exactly the same object so details may vary. I just think of the hammer as a leverage, posture, and rhythm feedback tool. At the moment of the strike, it's very similar to hitting a nail on the head.

Do be careful with rotations of any kind. I think this is part of the value of hammers but it is a two-sided coin - if you're not used to swinging them with force in that direction it's easy to torque stuff. So that's feedback you can use, but go slowly with care at first. I do think your arm can manage some rotations from the backswing into the pocket differently (e.g. pronating going into the pocket) with a light disc than a 3lb hammer. The hammer is just helping me develop a minimalist's swing with a forceful release or hit point.

I should note that I now always try moves with a lighter claw hammer first to figure out what doesn't hurt and then use that 3lb mallet. Then if I feel *anything* in the elbow or shoulder I slow down or switch back to the lighter one. I pay very close attention to discomfort of any kind. It's not worth injury to push it too much and I want a smooth controllable swing anyway.

It's really important that you rock back and forth with the body like I am in the setup there even if you use only one leg. So part of my advice there is that you need to find your own natural arm movement back and forth in the context of your posture. When I first started swinging the hammer at the bag it felt crappy and I moved around a bit until I felt like I could get a nice comfortable spacing to swing, then gradually started swinging in the same rhythm and tempo but harder and harder. And it was doubtless important that I did a lot of other mechanics work.

I also don't recommend hitting a swinging bag - I think I'm just used to it because I box on it and it's easy for me to predict where it will be and get a rhythm.

 

[RowingBoats]

Where did you get that watermelon envy?!

 

[Brychanus]

Where did you get that watermelon envy?!

If I told you that I took a sharpie to a watermelon-colored non-watermelon envy how harshly would you judge me?

 

[timothy42b]

No need to apologize. I think my general lesson this week has been to get out of my head and let the hammer feedback teach me, including about avoiding discomfort. Here's a vid since it seems easier to discuss it while showing it at this point. I'm talking about penduluming, then the arm action into the release point/hit, and finally how it transfers to the disc:


Do be careful with rotations of any kind. I think this is part of the value of hammers but it is a two-sided coin - if you're not used to swinging them with force in that direction it's easy to torque stuff. So that's feedback you can use, but go slowly with care at first.

That's why I asked, don't want to torque my elbow and end up having to lay off when I think I might be making progress.

I tried a hammer yesterday, lightly at first, glad I did. There was considerable bounce and it came back at me until I adjusted.

Reminded me of an incident from my childhood. We were hitting softballs, and out of curiosity one of us pitched a basketball. The batter took a mighty swing, the bat bounced off the ball and hit him in the head. Not seriously injured but definitely got his bell rung.

 

[Brychanus]

That's why I asked, don't want to torque my elbow and end up having to lay off when I think I might be making progress.

I tried a hammer yesterday, lightly at first, glad I did. There was considerable bounce and it came back at me until I adjusted.

Reminded me of an incident from my childhood. We were hitting softballs, and out of curiosity one of us pitched a basketball. The batter took a mighty swing, the bat bounced off the ball and hit him in the head. Not seriously injured but definitely got his bell rung.

I permanently hurt my rotator cuff on one bad baseball toss when I was a kid. Definitely take care swinging this stuff. I'm still trying to feel out and understand the transition into and out of the pocket, but the swings are improving fast after the little hit drill I did on the bag. Will be curious what SW22 sees.