Figured I'd share here and see what you guys thought too. He validated some concerns I already had about my form,but I think it was worth it given I only gave him a standstill video.
https://youtu.be/0heAH4j0w64
https://youtu.be/0heAH4j0w64
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Got a Critique from Will Schusterick.
- Thread starter BHock87
- Start date
mizunodave
Birdie Member
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2015
- Messages
- 336
I got one from Seppo recently too. Both Will and Seppo are available for these through their discgolfinstruction site.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjPHKOq-bWs&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjPHKOq-bWs&feature=youtu.be
Lumberjack504
Eagle Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2016
- Messages
- 591
Ehh - Will still has better form than I ever probably will but I can't help but cringe when he talks about his rear leg while he's clearly extending his rear leg and pushing off the heel.
Otherwise I think he think he gave you some good tips. Thanks for sharing!
Otherwise I think he think he gave you some good tips. Thanks for sharing!
NathanNoodleArm
Eagle Member
It's so cringe worthy! Gets me every time.
Lumberjack504
Eagle Member
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HyzerUniBomber
* Ace Member *
Wide stance: nope, nope and nope. Not in my not so humble opinion. Will's wide stance is exactly why he's driving off the heal and it's a major issue with his form.
OP's issue is that he's flat footed and not shifting (re: perpetual motion drill) and not shifting left of his trajectory.
Elbow talk is also got my hackles up. Pulling (you don't pull) or leading with your elbow is a byproduct of creating the correct frame to collapse and extend with your arm. If you "pull" the lead shoulder tightens up, raises up, makes bad stuff happen. If you pull, your head always want to lead.
If you collapse the disc to your center chest, caused by a weight shift and brace, the elbow comes forward naturally and your head and eyes just follow the disc. You don't have to turn your head to "pull" the disc forward.
I think Seppo does a pretty good job of describing the issues at hand, but I think he is wrong about "keeping your head down". Keep your chin up so that your head is neutral with regards to your spine. If you're throwing a hyzer, your spine tips forward and the head appears to be down. It's still neutral, just that the whole system is tipped forward.
I think Seppo is also missing out on the bigger picture, which is not going to be fixed by straightening your front leg. You have to shift INTO the brace and catch the momentum so that your back knee collapses towards your front knee.
So then, HOW do you get into that position. Roll back the tape on both of these request videos, and neither one is even close to this position. WHY?
You have to shift in a very specific way to correctly generate REAL leverage on the disc. If I handed you a 25 pound plate and said, use your x-step and throw this 15' - I don't think it would go anywhere. You've got to shift LEFT of your trajectory, brace up against the frontside (resisting forward momentum) and redirect the disc/heavy object targetward.
I have the utmost respect for the game of Seppo and Will. They've got great intentions and I think what they're trying to do is honorable, but I also think that what SW22 and our crew of DG Fundamentalists (ohhhh boy) - are trying to isolate is that the backhand core fundamentals that generate by-products, not find the by-products and then try to get into the by-product position.
The good news is that the fundamentals are so basic, that even absolute beginners can pickup the concept very quickly.
OP's issue is that he's flat footed and not shifting (re: perpetual motion drill) and not shifting left of his trajectory.
Elbow talk is also got my hackles up. Pulling (you don't pull) or leading with your elbow is a byproduct of creating the correct frame to collapse and extend with your arm. If you "pull" the lead shoulder tightens up, raises up, makes bad stuff happen. If you pull, your head always want to lead.
If you collapse the disc to your center chest, caused by a weight shift and brace, the elbow comes forward naturally and your head and eyes just follow the disc. You don't have to turn your head to "pull" the disc forward.
I think Seppo does a pretty good job of describing the issues at hand, but I think he is wrong about "keeping your head down". Keep your chin up so that your head is neutral with regards to your spine. If you're throwing a hyzer, your spine tips forward and the head appears to be down. It's still neutral, just that the whole system is tipped forward.
I think Seppo is also missing out on the bigger picture, which is not going to be fixed by straightening your front leg. You have to shift INTO the brace and catch the momentum so that your back knee collapses towards your front knee.
So then, HOW do you get into that position. Roll back the tape on both of these request videos, and neither one is even close to this position. WHY?
You have to shift in a very specific way to correctly generate REAL leverage on the disc. If I handed you a 25 pound plate and said, use your x-step and throw this 15' - I don't think it would go anywhere. You've got to shift LEFT of your trajectory, brace up against the frontside (resisting forward momentum) and redirect the disc/heavy object targetward.
I have the utmost respect for the game of Seppo and Will. They've got great intentions and I think what they're trying to do is honorable, but I also think that what SW22 and our crew of DG Fundamentalists (ohhhh boy) - are trying to isolate is that the backhand core fundamentals that generate by-products, not find the by-products and then try to get into the by-product position.
The good news is that the fundamentals are so basic, that even absolute beginners can pickup the concept very quickly.
Attachments
How do you know that is not what seppo means? Have you seen him throw? He certainly does not tuck his chin into his chest.
This part makes me unreasonably angry. Maybe its the language barrier but it sounds so condescending to me. I mean, you definitely know a lot more about form than me so i don't want to pass judgement, but if you go through your old blog-entries, is that really what you are doing?
Personally, i had a big breakthrough lately and all i had to do was ignore advice i got here (get to the right peck) and imitate the pros(never let you elbow collapse to <90°). Don't get me wrong, i absolutely appreciate all the videos, advice and discussions. I just have my doubts that the level of certainty displayed above is warranted.
drk_evns
Eagle Member
People learn in different ways @Hoeschel, so it's good that you're trying new things.
A lot of people in disc golf assume that if you can do something well it means you understand it well. There's a reason Paul brought Sexton to all of his clinics... he's not a good teacher.... so don't always assume these pros are the best place to go for answers.
Will teaches some weird ****, and a lot of it will contradict what the "actual" answers should be. Most advice like this comes from a good place... he wants to help you throw further and he's able to do so in a certain way. However, it can also really hurt people unintentionally. Giving the advice to "widen your stance" is just pure awful.
I'd take a lesson from HUB or SW22 over almost anyone else in the world, honestly.
A lot of people in disc golf assume that if you can do something well it means you understand it well. There's a reason Paul brought Sexton to all of his clinics... he's not a good teacher.... so don't always assume these pros are the best place to go for answers.
Will teaches some weird ****, and a lot of it will contradict what the "actual" answers should be. Most advice like this comes from a good place... he wants to help you throw further and he's able to do so in a certain way. However, it can also really hurt people unintentionally. Giving the advice to "widen your stance" is just pure awful.
I'd take a lesson from HUB or SW22 over almost anyone else in the world, honestly.
HyzerUniBomber
* Ace Member *
Okay, so lots to discuss. First, this point was based on the fact that
A. Seppo keeps his head neutral during his throws.
B. David DGI does not keep his head neutral.
C. Seppo says, paraphrasing, you're doing alot of things well: you're keeping your head down, pulling through nice and high...
That would lead me to believe that he either missed that he's burying his chin, or that he believes that "head down" is itself a good teaching point.
I can't speak for Seppo, but I very much disagree with "keeping your head down" as I have personally suffered many wrenched necks because of that issue.
I'm sorry to hear that, zero point zero part of my response was intended to promote myself or poop on anybody. I've tried to make the point over and over that I'm only talking about what has worked for me - when I'm teaching or learning myself. I've gone down MANY paths that were chasing a by-product, not the initial action. It sucks to spend so much time working the wrong way.
My old blog entries are LOADED with ah-ha moments that were me chasing a by-product. I was documenting my struggles to improve. Most of the articles came out of these forums, phone calls, fieldwork sessions, etc. and point blank: I'm sure there is stuff in there that I'd now disagree with, but I don't go back and read the old posts.
That's awesome! I think that everybody has a path that's shortest to get to better form. I don't think there's a wrong way, there's just a way that I've seen work much faster.
I do not ever want to shut down a conversation, debate, or thought experiment that could be beneficial.
But, I do think that there's a very good way to help develop form or make a swing change that comes from these fundamental concepts that have been discussed and light-bulb-flipped-on in these forums in the last 6-12 months.
They're so much different than what I would have focused on in the last 5 years, but I think they're better because they've made me throw MUCH better and I'm now getting into the positions that I screen capped above, because instead of trying to get into that position, I am shifting correctly and then I have to get into that position.
I'm editing a video right now that will discuss the change and I'll post it up. And if somebody says, "hey, I disagree" - that's awesome, because then we can discuss it and maybe I'll learn more from it.
HyzerUniBomber
* Ace Member *
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A lot of great stuff here HUB. The video really explains the Shifting Correctly thread (maybe post there as well?
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I think it was more of inside joke about someone else unrelated to this thread. It has been decided for the rest of us.
I'm confused, you had a big breakthrough by ignoring the advice I gave you? Also confused on how you can collapse the elbow less than 90 degrees without being at the right pec - although I didn't advise you to do either of those things.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128795
Last edited:
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So, basically what I said before except for the head part. :\
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3301370&postcount=11
Can you open this concept of by-product a little? Just very curious to know more of your process
slowplastic
* Ace Member *
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Can you open this concept of by-product a little? Just very curious to know more of your process
For example "You should pivot on your heel".
Yes most pro's pivot on their heel. But if you try to do this too much you can end up being way behind your plant foot to the back of the teepad, or too far to the right of the teepad. Either way over-emphasizing the heel weight so that you don't rotate on your toes, but you didn't necessarily get to a better or correct situation.
Or similarly, "follow through fully"...
Yeah but both follow through and heel pivot are a result of being upright and balanced on the plant leg. If you are balanced on the plant leg your foot will release with the heel mostly being pressured, and you will swing through with your trailing/off shoulder ending up facing the target.
These are just common sayings, but for example you can't just focus on follow through...it's a byproduct of being in balance until that point.
Me too.
I really don't disagree with anything you say here nor did i disagree with much of your original post. The only thing i really took issue with was the tone. I did not learn anything from those critiques and if you disagree with their content i think you should absolutely say so. But I want people to post these critiques here for everyone to see because maybe something interesting will come out of it. And i felt that the blanket summary you concluded with (based on one vid for each one) was really discouraging that.
I was only reading through it after the fact, but i got the impression that Bradley Walker coming in here and laying out his ideas got you and others rethinking or at least refining some important concepts, even if you ultimately disagree with a lot of what he says. But i feel that some people, with a little less trust in their views, could have easily been dissuaded from presenting their thoughts here. I guess i wish this place would be more welcoming in that regard and since your word counts for a lot on here and that puts you in a position where you could make that happen. But what i saw in that post was the exact opposite.
I was not thinking about that (or you) at all. Your replies really helped me and i am thankful for them. I think i should have said "teachings" instead of advice. And for the record, i don't remember you teaching the elbow forward/right pec thing.
You can't. Thats my point. The elbow should never be less than 90 degrees which is not something you can achieve from the right pec position.
I just want to say thanks for all of the discussion in this thread. That new video was a great watch too. I think at one point I may have had better form but abandoned it because I was early releasing. I'm know thinking it was because I was trying to rotate too fast and couldn't hold on to this disc.
I'll post a full form video sometime and see where I'm at. Thank you for all you guys do around here.
I'll post a full form video sometime and see where I'm at. Thank you for all you guys do around here.
