hornet vs. wasp vs. generic overstable mid

[Pwingles]

IMO comparing BB/KC aviars to wizards goes like this, the aviar is probably a better putting putter, has a good combination of glide and stability. The wizard however is better at everything else, and pretty comparable with the putting thing as long as you can adapt to the lack of glide compared to aviar BB.

 

[steve a]

How is the wizard a ripoff? I thought it used a new method for molding more weight out on the rim. Did Innova do that first or is any putter with a bead a ripoff of the kc?

I don't think anyone said that Wizard ripped off the BB Aviar. Focus on the other hand is very "inspired by" the Wizard.

Himynameismatt said it in his post at the top of the page.

 

[jubuttib]

How is the wizard a ripoff? I thought it used a new method for molding more weight out on the rim. Did Innova do that first or is any putter with a bead a ripoff of the kc?

I don't think anyone said that Wizard ripped off the BB Aviar. Focus on the other hand is very "inspired by" the Wizard.

Himynameismatt said it in his post at the top of the page.

Missed that, sorry. I haven't been at all well lately.

 

[steve a]

How is the wizard a ripoff? I thought it used a new method for molding more weight out on the rim. Did Innova do that first or is any putter with a bead a ripoff of the kc?

I don't think anyone said that Wizard ripped off the BB Aviar. Focus on the other hand is very "inspired by" the Wizard.

Himynameismatt said it in his post at the top of the page.

Missed that, sorry. I haven't been at all well lately.

I will forgive it this time.

 

[Mike C]

I put the Wasp in the same boat with the Focus, blatant ripoffs of competitors molds, Focus is essentially a KC Aviar. The Wasp and Focus are obvious copies but the originals are soooo much better that there really is no reason for anyone to be throwing anything but the originals. I mean at least when Gateway ripped off the KC Aviar they actually made a disc that's as good or better than the original.

Whaaaaat? Have you compared a Focus and Wizard and Aviar side by side? The Focus and Wizard look like clones and the Aviar has a completely different wing design. The Focus is so much more a Wizard rip off than Aviar, at least shape-wise.

 

[chickenonabun]

I've never thrown a focus, but to me the challenger feels pretty similar to the wizard, and the BB aviar is different than either.

 

[Widdershins]

Hate the Wasp. All the ones I've thrown were not much more stable than a heavy Z Buzzz. and I put Buzzz's out to 325' on 10' high Line Drives. No OAT here.

Second reason I Hate the Wasp...It's essentially the same mold as a Roc can we all agree on that? So if you're throwing a Wasp you must be a huge Discraft Honk, because Innova makes the exact same mold but it flies about 1000x better (Rough Estimate) and it can be found in baseline plastic. All the DX Rocs I've thrown have been quite a bit more stable, a lot longer, and a lot better in the wind than any Z Wasp.

I put the Wasp in the same boat with the Focus, blatant ripoffs of competitors molds, Focus is essentially a KC Aviar. The Wasp and Focus are obvious copies but the originals are soooo much better that there really is no reason for anyone to be throwing anything but the originals. I mean at least when Gateway ripped off the KC Aviar they actually made a disc that's as good or better than the original.

The Hornet on the other hand...Will always have a spot in my bag as long the Buzzz does. Someone else said it perfectly when they said it's a shorter slower Predator. As straight as a Buzzz for 80% w/ a hard late fade and a good skip usually...I shape all my mid lines with a Buzzz but when the wind is blowing in my face I reach for the Hornet. Or when I need a mid line that has to finish right (LHBH)

Small variations of a good theme can be a very good thing.

himynameismatt, say for example you just started dating a new chick and you think she is gorgeous. She invites you to a family reunion picnic and mentions that her twin sister will be there! Oh, and she she has 3 other sisters and 6 cousins and people have trouble telling them apart. Tell me how much you would hate that.

As far as discs go, maybe it is time for a Pepsi challenge (a blind, unbiased testing). Since every run of discs is different and sometimes quite different, I gotta believe there are some runs of Wasp you would like better than some runs of Rocs. Oh, and you can buy candy Buzzz's and Wasps without paying premium CFR or USDGC prices.

When any new design becomes popular it is copied. You can hate the copy if you wish but why do so? You probably own running shoes or cargo shorts or sunglasses or pens or a myriad other things which are copies of other products. Do you hate them too? One of the advantages of competition is more choices and sometimes a new variation can work perfectly for you.

Even a product you view as a copy may in fact be a small variation which is an improvement. You never know, you might like the twin sister better.

 

[GripEnemyS2K]

mmmm twins

 

[Frank Delicious]

Why buy the cheap knock-off when the original is readily available at reasonable prices?

 

[Crimson75]

my name is Jason....I throw the focus.

 

[helly]

To get this sucker somewhere back in the direction of on-track: I'm currently on the search for a more stable midrange as well. I throw Rocs, mostly KC Pro 12x which beat up too quickly to stay tough against wind for very long, and a DX/Star blend Sanny Roc which is pretty stable, but I anticipate it beating into straight in a month or two. I need something to handle wind duties, reliably, and I play in the Chicago area where we definitely get ridiculous wind swings, and headwinds that get pretty decent. I throw the Rocs for 250-300ft holes on various lines, and I'd be looking for a disc I could use similarly, just in wind, or when I need a left finish on a flat line as opposed to a hyzer line. I've thrown the Wasp, and the Hornet, and I can't say I loved either.

Is there anything that might be a bit more... shape-able than the Wasp/Hornet/Drone types, but still a bit more wind resistant, or at least durable than the KC Pro Roc or DX Rancho Roc with similar stability/wind resistance? The Lat64 Pain was mentioned earlier, and that one's been sounding pretty appealing to me, among a few other discs.

 

[inthedrift]

Try out a Lat 64 Pain, I think you'll be pleased.

 

[helly]

Which do you prefer, the Opto or the GL? If they're different, I'm happy to learn how and figure out which would suit me best, but I'm just curious, as without making special trips to the couple of relatively distant disc golf specific shops in my area, there's no way to buy Latitude plastic at a brick and mortar store around here.

 

[discspeed]

Try out a Lat 64 Pain, I think you'll be pleased.

Between my own experience and the reviews I've read here and other places a good percentage of Pains are not stable enough for wind. 2 of the 3 I tested (both GLs) flipped up from slight hyzer more than a brand new Z Buzzz. I suspect even the stable Opto I threw would turn in a lot of wind because of the glidey, rounded, Shark/Ontario Roc type top and the lack of a bead. I think the Pain is a good versatile all purpose mid, but I don't think it's what you are looking for in the overstable slot. For that I'd recommend the Vector, which is faster, more overstable by design, and more consistently molded than the Pain...However, I guess I should ask what it was about the Wasp/Hornet that you didn't like?

 

[jubuttib]

Between my own experience and the reviews I've read here and other places a good percentage of Pains are not stable enough for wind. 2 of the 3 I tested (both GLs) flipped up from slight hyzer more than a brand new Z Buzzz. I suspect even the stable Opto I threw would turn in a lot of wind because of the glidey, rounded, Shark/Ontario Roc type top and the lack of a bead.

Funny, me experience is almost the opposite. The GL Pains I've thrown were very overstable, similar in overstability to domey FR Vectors, but with more abrupt movements. Zero turn. And the one Opto I've thrown was way more understable, it did sort of remind me of a newish Z Buzzz with more fade.

Based on the GLs I've thrown I'd definitely trust them to handle almost any wind.

 

[discspeed]

Between my own experience and the reviews I've read here and other places a good percentage of Pains are not stable enough for wind. 2 of the 3 I tested (both GLs) flipped up from slight hyzer more than a brand new Z Buzzz. I suspect even the stable Opto I threw would turn in a lot of wind because of the glidey, rounded, Shark/Ontario Roc type top and the lack of a bead.

Funny, me experience is almost the opposite. The GL Pains I've thrown were very overstable, similar in overstability to domey FR Vectors, but with more abrupt movements. Zero turn. And the one Opto I've thrown was way more understable, it did sort of remind me of a newish Z Buzzz with more fade.

Based on the GLs I've thrown I'd definitely trust them to handle almost any wind.

I trust your reviews, so I must simply conclude that the Pain is one of the variable discs out there in terms of stability. Hopefully Latitude decides how they want them to fly, how to make them fly that way, and how to keep them flying that way. I doubt you would overlook this, but did the ones you throw still have the flash on the bottom?

 

[jubuttib]

I trust your reviews, so I must simply conclude that the Pain is one of the variable discs out there in terms of stability. Hopefully Latitude decides how they want them to fly, how to make them fly that way, and how to keep them flying that way. I doubt you would overlook this, but did the ones you throw still have the flash on the bottom?

The I've thrown the GLs both when brand new with flash and later when beat in somewhat and the flash more or less gone. There was a difference, but it wasn't a dramatic one. Mainly the straight portion of flight got longer in the slightly beat ones. The Opto was also brand spanking new when I tested it and had the flash intact.

FWIW the GLs were heavy, orangeish/slightly brownish ones, and the Opto was lighter, more or less the same cobalt blue you find in VIP Swords.

 

[dehaas]

since this thread has came back to life a bit i'll share my findings. i'm throwing the pain, and have been pretty pleased with it. i had an opto that for me flew a bit more overstable than my nice flat z wasp. i liked the disc, but i'm partial to gold line plastic, so i picked up a gl pain and traded off my opto. both were heavier weights, and both flew similar to me. the opto was a darkish blue, and the gold line is gold in color. i'm slowly but surely switching to more and more latitude, the pain and fuse are both killer mids. i can't say that i like the core more than a buzzz though.

 

[helly]

Try out a Lat 64 Pain, I think you'll be pleased.

Between my own experience and the reviews I've read here and other places a good percentage of Pains are not stable enough for wind. 2 of the 3 I tested (both GLs) flipped up from slight hyzer more than a brand new Z Buzzz. I suspect even the stable Opto I threw would turn in a lot of wind because of the glidey, rounded, Shark/Ontario Roc type top and the lack of a bead. I think the Pain is a good versatile all purpose mid, but I don't think it's what you are looking for in the overstable slot. For that I'd recommend the Vector, which is faster, more overstable by design, and more consistently molded than the Pain...However, I guess I should ask what it was about the Wasp/Hornet that you didn't like?

I'm going to assume your power level is a good bit higher than mine if you're flipping a new Z Buzzz? I should clarify that my findings with the Roc/Buzzz as stable, shapeable midranges, and conversely my lack of satisfaction with the Wasp and Hornet is with about 300' of power behind a midrange on a line I can actually control. When I've thrown a brand new-ish Z Buzzz I've never gotten it to flip if released clean on a slight hyzer, even just slightly up to flat. A throwing buddy of mine that plays with Buzzz' has a beat cryztal one that's a bit flippy/turny but he found that last season and has used it often since, on top of its presumed usage prior, and that one I can flip up to flat or over with a clean release and good snap.

A few of my Rocs are a bit flippy, but only because I'm poor and so I can't rotate new ones in very often, and there's plenty of pretty wooded courses around here. As for what I didn't like about the Wasp and the Hornet: the Z Wasp seemed fine, and felt good in my hand, but the one I threw didn't actually perform well enough in the wind to make it an appropriate overstable/windy day compliment to the Rocs I have. Otherwise, it was long enough, threw nicely and generally was a quite decent disc. It would only have a place for me as a Roc that I needed to finish further left after flying the same line. As for the Hornet, the one I tried was also Z, and felt quite short to me. I had trouble getting clean power out of it (I suspect partially because it didn't feel great in my hand), but while it was quite wind resistant, it didn't seem to be as much of a midrange as a short, overstable driver. Almost like a Viper, for instance. I'm looking for something that's perhaps a bit more wind resistant than the Rocs, or at least more durable with similar wind resistance, but can be worked on some stable to overstable mid lines depending on the severity of the wind.

From what I've been reading, the Pain is pretty much what I'm looking for, in a lot of people's experience, anyway. As for the discrepancy in yours, I have no ability to presume one way or the other, but as I just ordered myself a present from Marshall St, I'm hoping it was simply an anomaly.

 

[discspeed]

I'm going to assume your power level is a good bit higher than mine if you're flipping a new Z Buzzz?

When I throw a new Z Buzzz with slight hyzer it doesn't flip up flat, but the disc still pushes almost completely straight on a slight hyzer line, so my point was that I got similar/or a little more action out of the Pains I tried. When I threw them slight hyzer I was visualizing a similar line as when I power a Vector or newish/premium Roc...More of a streched out line that is still curving the whole time. What I got was a shot that flew almost completely straight despite the disc's hyzer orientation in the air, and they did actually flip up a couple degrees as well. This was in calm conditions.