I can BARELY break 300'

[sidewinder22]

Man, definitely overthinking. With the drills there is overlap and exaggeration, it's hard to put things into a sequence other than the gas pedal should basically be done before the can is completely crushed. I definitely would watch and do what SC does in Best Downswing Weighshift a few times, in first reply.

Let the arm/disc swing back and forth loose before you start the backswing, don't hold everything static. Move and swing be dynamic.

Your rear leg stays extended as you move forward so your head leads forward and then your foot leads forward, but never the hips/butt. You need to squat into the rear leg on the way forward so your spine tilts back and butt/hips lead forward. Hershyzer Drill 1 and 2.

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

I think you are right about the over thinking. After SP reposted the hammer video I did the motion and realized that I've gotten away from the heavy disc/lever feeling, and the pump at the bottom of the arc. After doing this a few times things feel much more effortless, and that back knee is bending without me having to think about it at all.

I'll be posting a video soon but I did want to ask something about the plant leg. I find that when I do the hammer throw motion, and things feel effortless, that when I end the throw my plant leg knee is bent. I have read and seen in videos that you want to straighten out the knee. This being said I feel like I have seen some pros throw with a bent knee and so I wanted to ask really how much force is being lost by doing this, and is it something to pay attention to?

 

[slowplastic]

^My understanding is make sure the knee doesn't drift past the ankle, that indicates collapsing and lost leverage. At minimum the knee needs to support you rather than compress. I don't know about power potential with a somewhat bent knee brace vs. extending toward a straight leg...

Don't lock the leg out though.

 

[sidewinder22]

When I thought about keeping the front knee bent is when I tore my MCL. I feel like it's extending even when it's bent or bending, should be resisting bending/collapsing. The straighter the leg, the faster you will rotate as byproduct, however on the flip-side the more bent the leg, the more leverage you will have. You definitely don't want to fully lock out the knee either, you would have no balance or leverage then. Should be smooth squat and extension like a skater on half pipe, not a jerk or snapping action throwing you off the half-pipe.

So IMO it's just trading-off power/leverage vs efficiency/speed, both end up about the same distance potential. IMO a straighter knee is safer on the knee though, puts less horizontal torque on a joint that is built for up/down, not sideways motion.

 

[slowplastic]

Should be smooth squat and extension like a skater on half pipe, not a jerk or snapping action throwing you off the half-pipe.

I remember watching this on tv.

Yes that's Tony Hawk saying "Wow I can't believe he made the 720".

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

Alright so here's most recent. Bouncing back and forth a bit before throwing feels like its helping. I still feel like I'm probably rotating like what SP was saying but maybe less so. I also realized that I was throwing discs in this field and 30 feet behind was a picnic bench that I could set me phone on to get a better video (doy).

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1h-gxuqbHAyyE9xmsF0LPgh-8dEx2iGW9

Let me know whatchu guys think.

 

[billyjacko]

For your pre-routine, you're really over exaggerating the movement, and it's making you disconnected. The hips and shoulders should move in sync with each other, where your moving your hips... then the shoulders, like you're forcing the sequence. It's best to do that dingle arm move with a hammer. Keep you're head upright too. I can see you're trying to feel the spine tilt by dipping your head back, but the head should stay stacked through the entire movement. It's like your weight is always in between your legs because as your head and shoulders is over the rear foot, the rest of your weight is on the front foot (picture related). Move your weight with your feet. Stand on two feet, with all your weight on the right foot, then push all your weight to your left foot, boom weight shift. Now do it with your shoulders turned away from the direction your sending the weight (like a backswing). It'll change your center of gravity slightly, but you want to do the exact same thing. Keep your weight between your legs and send it back and forth, the head will stack naturally.

Watch how SW's head is never even close to that position, and his weight shift is tiny, like he's just swaying his weight back and forth between his feet.


You're really plodding through the x-step. It doesn't look slow and smooth, it looks clunky. You need to get up on your toes and glide more through the xstep. try to stay light on your toes and ready to send the weight forward.

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

In this video I tried focusing on not exaggerating the hammer swing move so much. I don't know if the actual drive is much different or not, I feel like I'm doing a lot of the same things. Any feedback is as always appreciated

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KdXioOjFIrogDFSENsjcGmJSV-jIlQ2S

 

[sidewinder22]

Your steps are way too long and putting your way off balance and horsestanced. I would recommend re-watching vids in the first couple posts again, and doing one leg drill, should feel extremely bizarre to you getting this upright balanced on front leg!

 

[slowplastic]

In general, you are doing things that feel very powerful but are actually putting you off balance and are slower. You are taking a huge left foot step behind, which leaves your body behind so you have to wait until the body gets back inside your stance before you can apply any forward leverage to it. Your long front leg stride is then opening you up ahead of the throw so any leverage is non-existent before throwing. From turning open you're then using your arm to try to add to this rotation, but it's a pretty slow and wide rotation that is not continually leveraged.

I would definitely recommend trying the one leg drill, even swinging and throwing or not throwing a hammer. The extra weight will make sure you need to be in balance and leverage vs. using your arm and flinging. Video and post it if you like, it will definitely help as you're probably not doing it right....it's hard to do it right without feedback.

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

This video is a little longer than I was planning on it being, but this is me attempting to do the hammer swing (without throwing) on one leg. I tried to stay on one leg most of the video but also switched at times to being on two legs and trying to shift back and forth.

Balancing on one leg is definitely harder than I thought, and I can feel that this hasn't been what I've been doing in my actual throw so I'm excited to see what sort of progress I can make off of this drill. I will post me actually throwing discs on one leg soon, but this is what I have to start with.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Yx7XTIw6LRrZVxRFW_MDimr4ByQnmkMO

 

[slowplastic]

Way too fast and way too whippy.

Pretend that your elbow and wrist can't bend or hinge. Pretend that they are like a bow and can only flex if absolutely necessary.

So have a long arm, so you feel like the hammer hangs through your arm and to your shoulder...just hang it there towards your foot. Then slowly start it pumping back and forth with the extended arm.

At the 10 second mark your chin is inside of your front ankle, if you draw a vertical line through it. This is why your back leg stays put and doesn't move with your swinging. At 22 seconds for the next bit you get your head farther forward, so your back leg starts to counterbalance you...but your head still isn't perfectly balanced so it's getting tossed back and forth a bit, plus you're swinging really fast....too fast for your balance as well.

So be way longer, way slower, and don't think spin or flick or load back or anything. Think long connected arm, hammer straight to shoulder.

 

[sidewinder22]

Agree with SP. Way too fast and whippy/limp wrist. Lock the wrist straight, so the hammer handle is almost inline with the forearm and you have complete control of the weight of it. You have the hammer handle 90 degrees bent to your forearm, you have no leverage against the weight of it there and in very weak wrist position. Don't try to use the wrist at all, lock it down tight and neutral. Use the rest of your body to move it and position your body to leverage against its weight.

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

So I will definitely do that and post when I get a video. I've been here at work swinging around a particularly heavy stapler while on my headset and getting some odd looks from coworkers . In trying to keep my arm long and hanging, I definitely can feel how I was going too fast earlier. I've also been focusing on keeping my chin sort of behind my ankle (if we are calling the targetward direction forward) and I believe that I'm doing it better. It's a LOT harder to stay right in the balance point while swinging than I realized, as I thought that I was doing this before in my throws but was dead wrong lol.

I've also been throwing in the occasional x step to try and integrate the one leg feeling and I think I maybe realized something I was unintentionally doing. I think that before I was trying to shift my weight from one leg to the other while simultaneously trying to throw. I was sort of shifting my weight BY throwing instead of immediately BEFORE throwing. I would put my heel down but my head and much of my weight would stay way too far back (leaning in the reachback) over my back foot. I would then throw, and my weight would only be fully on top of/over the plant foot for a split second or so before the weight then toppled over the brace.

Right now just swinging around various heavy objects, it feels more like I'm setting up a solid plant and then bringing the object/disc/hammer through that plant/system and then ejecting it out the other side, as opposed to blasting all of my momentum forward and releasing the disc at some point during that.

Like I said I'll post with a disc soon and get some more feedback. I did want to ask if what I'm talking about here sounds like I'm on the right track or not

 

[sidewinder22]

It's a LOT harder to stay right in the balance point while swinging than I realized, as I thought that I was doing this before in my throws but was dead wrong lol.

I think that before I was trying to shift my weight from one leg to the other while simultaneously trying to throw. I was sort of shifting my weight BY throwing instead of immediately BEFORE throwing. I would put my heel down but my head and much of my weight would stay way too far back (leaning in the reachback) over my back foot. I would then throw, and my weight would only be fully on top of/over the plant foot for a split second or so before the weight then toppled over the brace.

Right now just swinging around various heavy objects, it feels more like I'm setting up a solid plant and then bringing the object/disc/hammer through that plant/system and then ejecting it out the other side, as opposed to blasting all of my momentum forward and releasing the disc at some point during that.

I did want to ask if what I'm talking about here sounds like I'm on the right track or not

Definitely right track ^. Toss/repel the momentum away from you.

 

[sidewinder22]

Elbow and wrist are locked or pulled completely taut into full extension in the hammer throwers as object is too heavy to try and swing on a straighter line/arc via bending the arm, plus they don't really care nearly as much about accuracy:

Swinging with lighter weights like a disc, your body and arm will automatically speed up and you can bend the elbow more, but you really don't need to bend the elbow or wrist much at all to throw far. IMO bending the arm is the opposite way to start. Start swinging with straight arm and then add some elbow bend/hinge into it and still feel the weight/momentum of the object whipping away from you to the target.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that sounds much better, feeling how to plant/set up and then use your body weight to pump and unload the disc/lever. It's way slower than what you had been doing, and should feel much more connected/together.

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

Alright so here is the one leg drill with a disc. This first one is with me trying to throw with a straight arm. I didn't know if you meant throwing with a straight arm in the same way as a hammer or not so I basically threw a hyper spike hyzer.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=13PNgTCOo50iqh4ST6D8bq36t2Jhofr2H


Here is me on the next hole throwing from the one leg with a bent elbow on a more standard type of throw like I normally do.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ndWjatF9pytI142Sj4WeQmlLlvT5Gdet


because discs are so light I was having a little trouble kind of feeling the weight and the acceleration, but I tried to keep roughly the same timing as when I was throwing the hammer. I noticed that I did not have the same distance as when I run up, but I think that is to be expected.

I can also post another video of me doing the hammer swing but less whippy if you guys think that would help with feedback as well.

Let me know whatcha see.

 

[slowplastic]

That is definitely the right direction compared to before, so now I can try to get a few details/concepts from my perspective...I'm sure SW will spot a lot of specific body positioning things.

So in the first one leg pendulum video, start with the disc gripped how you want it. The purpose is to feel the mass of the object pulling your arm, or the other way of thinking about it...having your body pumping directly to the object. So you need that in-line and in control grip.

As for the bent arm thing, I understand the confusion and how it feels like it's not right to keep the arm straight. But even in that extreme hyzer angle when you go to throw, you can see your forearm lags back like 20 degrees, kind of like Feldberg when he throws. And your pump is completely off for when the power gets applied, which I will explain below. But my point is, if you start with a pretty long/straight arm and have the power/pump applied the right way, the forearm will LAG back and it will LOOK like the power pocket, rather than you trying to get to some elbow bent position halfway between reachback and hit. This is a big concept change for me as I was always focusing on the power pocket too.

In the one leg position, shift your head another 3-5" targetward so it is directly above your plant leg. When you turn back and forth slowly with the disc, it should make you feel like you want to bring your whole torso and your left leg along for the ride, turning at the same pace to stay in balance.

Your pump timing is off a bit, which is the main problem I see. You are crouching down to the bottom point of the swing, and extending up in time with the swing. What should actually be happening, is beginning to extend as the disc just starts to drop toward the ground, so you are already pumping it/extending through the bottom of the swing and accelerating it away from you.

If you watch this hammer swing video, try the elephant walk with a hammer. Watch how the outside or leading foot plants at the apex/transition of the hammer swing, and lands before the hammer comes down. This movement makes it so obvious how you need to time it once you've felt it, then when pumping between your feet in a standstill stance you can really feel how you have: top of swing transition->farther foot plant->foot weight starts to pull disc as it comes down->big acceleration through bottom of arc

https://youtu.be/Y-KVWfUkQ3s?t=280

It should be linked to 4:40

 

[sidewinder22]

Agree with SP, especially gripping the disc in the first vid, in the beginning you are holding it way too loose and off plane, lock your wrist to the disc weight. Disc angle/plane should ideally align with your forearm/radius bone. You don't need a death grip, but a firm grip just firm enough to have master control of it's swing weight through a locked wrist.

The first video is way better than the second! Keep that same pump and backswing with straight arm, and then you can allow the elbow to bend/hinge in the forward swing to keep the swing plane flatter. Your transition from the top of the backswing into the swing is slightly off/paused. You start squatting your leg together as the disc starts down/forward, there should be a smooth transition to the top of the backswing where you start squatting the leg before the disc gets to the top and creates some equal and opposite lag separation.

The second one you are starting in a stiff static position and trying to manipulate yourself to get back into that position rather than feeling the flow and letting it happen more naturally and dynamically. Your front leg collapses through the release instead of extending/pumping the leg like standing on a swing set.