I can BARELY break 300'

[Plasticsnapsauce]

So I grabbed a hammer really quickly before I left for work and tried what you guys are talking about, I will try and post a video of me elephant walking tomorrow. I wanted to ask about disc plane however.

When holding the disc straight down and throwing on the extreme hyzer angle I was imitating the hammer swing throw by keeping my arm long (or trying at least). If my understanding is correct though, what SW22 is saying is that eventually, I want to keep that motion but simply bend at the elbow for a flatter release. I feel like if I were to do this, I could likely get a still sharp but usable hyzer on the course, and if I could get enough acceleration and the right disc, could maybe do a hyzer-flip. It will probably make more intuitive sense after I get my timing right but how can I do this downward pump hammer motion and transfer that to a flat pull and release?

 

[sidewinder22]

There is no such thing as flat. The faster your body rotates(due to less swing weight), the more centrifugal force will pull your arm/disc outward horizontally. Also it's not a just a downward pump, it's down and up. Your shoulder should first swing through low like a pendulum, then begin going upward as the elbow bends, so now they are both on the same "flat" plane or flattens the low point of the pendulum.
https://www.adamyounggolf.com/low-point-and-parametric-acceleration/

 

[slowplastic]

Once you feel that down and through arc with a hammer, it really helps out. The extra weight makes it easier to feel, and gravity helping with the arc also really helps out. Once you've felt it, it will actually be pretty natural to bring it to a flatter and flatter level, or shallower and shallower hyzer. To me it feels wider and wider.. Keep in mind with a disc in your hand it will be much easier to rotate/swing faster and keep the arm up higher from the speed...with a hammer and a slow swing that goes with it, you end up down in that golf/hyzer swing plane so everything is balanced I find.

Bringing the swing flatter is from torso/spine angle and a bit of shoulder, maybe...but the elbow and forearm should always match the upper arm no matter the swing plane.

When you feel that pump through the bottom and accelerate to the other side it should be fairly easy to maintain that feeling on different angles. And it'll then be about trusting having a pretty straight arm that lags/bends to eject the disc, rather than focusing on spin or things like that. The disc will rotate a lot when it comes out.

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

So I think I just realized a big thing. This is of course to be taken with a grain of salt as I find that I "finally figured out the one thing that I've been missing and solved the ultimate secret of disc golf" about 3-4 times a week. However with that article that SW22 linked I realize that I have been "pumping" downwards to try and increase the acceleration. I believe that what I am missing here is that the squatting downward motion is just sort of getting you into position to then extend back upwards, and that the upwards motion DURING the downswing is what gives the acceleration.

I tried this a few times with my trusty stapler, and then even just my hand holding nothing and it feels like it's going a lot faster. I still plan on posting a video of me doing the elephant walk, but I think that the realization that the momentum from the pump is from moving upwards instead of downwards is going to help a lot of things click.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that's right...you land with a bit of a bent leg and keep extending. This extension is what pulls the mass through the bottom of the swing. When the swing plane is higher/flatter then the "bottom" of the arc is kind of like the outward part...it will feel pretty similar with the added momentum.

 

[sidewinder22]

Crush the Can and Pump it up and all the way around without Spilling the Beverage!

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

Alright so I took a stack of discs and the hammer out to my field. As I was pumping back up through the swing my arm and hammer definitely felt much heavier, and was going faster. After swinging the hammer on both one leg and two legs I did the elephant walk and then threw the hammer a bit. I managed to get the hammer to go the right direction on the third throw. First toss was a hard WTF Richard moment, and I'm glad nobody was behind me lol.

I then tried to throw some discs, first starting on a very sharp hyzer like before and then trying to bring things up slightly in angle with each new disc.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Q0sxvYoCPPjTuL2CZQLi0fnhnA2yBu6T

My second video here is just me throwing some more discs while trying to use this acceleration pump feeling. The discs were not going very far and I know this is something that will come later with practice.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GnUTdFVbSqDNbppvt7anX23sihthO1eG

As always let me know what you think

 

[sidewinder22]

Right path at the beginning, but then you start to over do it and your leg is snapping into fast extension instead of smoothly extending you. Swinging too fast and hard and then you start wobbling and swaying around like an unbalanced washing machine. Slow and balanced and smooth and effortless is key.

Your elephant walk is horsestanced and wobbling. Walk normal width of stance, but you may have to hesitate to get into rhythm with the leg plant and then swing. Don't try to jump really fast, smooth extension like standing on swing set in tune with gravity. Just walk normally in rhythm with the swing and gravity.

On your throws, you are also horsestanced and throwing off the rear leg instead of being completely balanced on the front leg.

 

[slowplastic]

I think you're still thinking too much of an instantaneous snap has to be applied to the disc. It will be a constant leverage/pull and then it will get whipped out at the end as a result of the levers moving to the side.

This is definitely better than before and closer to the feel, but I'm seeing too much of a bend of the leg and then "catch" of the disc/arm weight before the bottom and then trying to really get it to whip instantly by extending. Instead it should feel like your plant leg has weight and you can really pull that disc down and then through the bottom of the arc by weighting and slowly extending/rising...slower and smoother and it will end up accelerating out and up the other side.

With the bend that ends up happening in your arms and the timing of the legs it seems like you're trying to feel like a cracking of a whip for the hit point, when really it will feel like a constant lever and the disc will have to rocket out. You need to feel like you have control over your arm/disc weight during basically the whole swing down and around that corner/bottom of the pendulum, and then it will feel like it's coming back out the other side faster.

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

Man just doing this in my room and reading what you guys are saying everything seems so intuitive and easy, and then when I go out to actually do it, it seems to fall apart everytime lol.

Right now my plan is to try and go out tomorrow and get another hammer and disc video. I'm going to focus on not trying to intentionally speed up my arm (which I was definitely doing in the last video) and just completely letting gravity set the pace.

Right now, even just thinking about doing that seems like it will be even less power and I think that's why I've been overdoing it. I'm going to stop focusing on distance and trying to throw far and focus now on just throwing effortlessly and letting gravity and the lower body do the work.

Another sensation that I'm getting is that the disc is too light. The hammer feels great as I can really feel the weight of it and when I let it fall it feels like gravity is going to give it a lot of speed and momentum. It's definitely harder to get that feeling with a disc, and when I think about just letting the disc fall and then using that momentum, it sort of seems like it won't be enough in my head.

That being said I will still absolutely do this next chance I get and post the results. I feel like I'm getting close to having this concept down. Thank you everyone who has helped me get here.

 

[slowplastic]

I definitely agree when you get a disc in the hand it's 100x harder...you can't feel that weight the same way and plus you're trying to not think about throwing it when the goal is to throw it far. Using slower discs and just thinking about clean throws and "it'll be what it'll be" works the best for me...let the disc glide and see what happens. Don't have a distance expectation, let the disc fly and see when it ends up staying in the air longer than the power you thought you applied...that's when you know it's working better.

With the hammer remember it feels like slow motion, it feels like 0.25-0.5x the speed. That's ok. Also just try to leverage that hammer and have it come out of the hand, and notice after that it ends up rotating. The disc will rotate too. I've lately been focused way less on any elbow or wrist bend, and feeling way less wrist bend than I have used for the past several years, yet I can throw flippy discs very hard and have them stay in the air...so they are spinning harder than before.

With the hammer and gravity comment...try to make it feel like your smooth pumping is acting with gravity on the way down. Don't just let gravity get you to the bottom, pump the disc down into gravity and arc it through the bottom so that hammer comes out the other side and way up.

 

[sidewinder22]

That's why I say you have to pretend in your mind that the disc is heavy like the door frame or sledgehammer, it's a mental trick to help you maintain balance and leverage and rhythm in the backswing and come through the transition starting the forward swing in slow motion.

The game in every aspect is more mental than physical. You have to think about things in different ways, it's a whole change in philosophy of how to throw and of course will take a lot of practice to master. Not caring about distance is an excellent philosophy, good things tend to happen when you don't try so hard on it and let it happen. Ken Jarvis said all he focused on was making the throw as effortless as possible. Of course it will take lots of practice, but with the right mindset it accelerates.

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

We had some rain so I couldn't get out as quick as I wanted to.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Lg7s09jkP49KrIocHDJR1XirlbwqE1HX


Here is the latest video. I am really trying to slow things down and just have a smooth release. Distance and shot shaping has definitely gone out the window but I know that those are things that will come later once I have the feel of the core concept down.

I don't know if I am crouching and extending in the right places but I feel like I am closer to it than I was before. I will note that everything feels super wonky in doing this. Let me know what you guys are seeing.

 

[slowplastic]

That is way better with the hammer to me. You're setting up on the leg sooner and keeping the arm and hammer as a unit much better.

As you speed up though I think you get to a tempo that is really hard to maintain the feel with...that's when you start to almost lead your angles with your head tilt and your spine starts to get overly tilted to almost get you into a position that you can't get yanked from "before" leveraging anything...rather than setting yourself up in constant leverage/hold/control of the hammer.

With the disc I think I see still bit too much speed in the pendulum so the disc kind of catches and whips at the bottom of the arc instead of having constant leverage...and along with that you seem to keep the head down/in place and really shift the spine around rather than trying to keep a balanced athletic spine angle with constant feedback through your arm to the disc.

I also think you are using your arm too soon...I can see that with the disc but it's noticeable at 1:25 with the hammer throw. I just really think you are telling your arm to throw the hammer too soon and it's kind of a half-slip and extra rotation feel, rather than the hammer getting sent out from you. I marked up an image below to hopefully help.

You have the right attitude that there is going to be an adjustment period, and when it's a bit off then it's the worst. But you're way closer than where you were before. For simple advice I would say:
-keep it slow/smooth and in leverage/control during the warm up swings
-keep spine balanced
-swing later with the arm engagement, and let the disc be extended/higher up when trying to throw flatter rather than swooping

 

[sidewinder22]

Agree with SP. The first part One Leg Swing was by far the best, but then you started rushing it and arm was loosing tautness to the weight of the hammer/too loose. The hammer toss was not an effortless toss, it was thrown way too hard, don't focus on throwing it far or fast, just effortless rhythm where the hammer's weight just springs out away from you. Keep your wrist locked with the hammer.

When you widened your stance and actively shifting your hips excessively back and forth things went to hell. All you need is a tiny compact shift of the hips/weight, should only be like 1 or 2 inches back and forth, not 3 feet back and forth.

You are walking in way too wide stance and pigeon toed. Walk normal and swing back and forth.

Watch weightshift vids in post #2 a few more times and do exactly what SC does in them.

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=12r7LGdJotHOe3fphAQ_7jlTo1FAqedj-

In this one I'm really trying to focus on not throwing very hard. I think I still accidentally accelerated a little too much on some of the disc throws.

After watching the SC videos I'm here trying to not consciously shift my weight anymore, and just letting the weight of my arms and turning into the backswing be the shift. I had originally had the impression from the hershyzer drill that I needed to really focus hard on leading with my hips, but I think I was overdoing it.

In these throws, especially with the hammer throwing, I am trying to not really use my arm at all, this was more difficult with the discs than with the hammer for sure.

I also am not exactly sure how to bring the plane of the swing up to be throwing in less of a ball golf swing swoop as SP was saying. I feel like if I hold my arm up more, its very difficult to try and feel the weight as gravity is no longer helping me create a "downswing".

Is what I'm doing now supposed to be a sort of drill to get my timing right so that I can then apply it to more normal shaped drives, or am I actually supposed to somehow feel weight while holding the disc more up, and having the arc come out from my body as opposed to down in a swoop? My last disc toss I tried to bring the disc up and straight out from my body but decided mid practice swing to try more of a 45 degree sort of thing, but the concept is still a little confusing.

 

[RandyC]

To me its more of a timing drill, feeling drill, understanding how your body is supposed to move etc. In my actual throw I almost do a slapshot windup from hockey, then snap it to my chest and out. Wide, narrow, wide.

 

[sidewinder22]

Definitely better than before. Still shifting and turning your hips into the shot too quick. And not rotating your shoulder back and forth enough.

Hershyzer is drill for x-step.

Really not much different throwing a 3lbs Sledgehammer vs Putter except for my balance more behind the front heel with Sledgehammer so it's horizontal outward momentum doesn't pull me out of posture:

 

[Plasticsnapsauce]

Sounds good, I will do another video next time I go out.

I wanted to also ask about the acceleration and increasing speed. Should I eventually start trying to speed things up and putting more effort into the throw, or should I stick with the effortless approach indefinitely? I guess what I'm asking is that once I have practiced this more and have will I then start adding more effort in to get more distance, or will I start gaining the distance as I practice this more, and the throw itself still stays effortless?

I know that putting more effort into the throw right now will probably lead to strong-arming, and all the other issues that I have been having and I'm trying to not do that, I'm just asking more about later down the road.

 

[sidewinder22]

Effortless to infinity like the Long Toss Drill in Baseball - same principle as my Pertually Longer Swing Drill. Ken Jarvis(former distance record holder w/ Teebird 810') said all he focused on in distance practice was making his swing as effortless as possible. Ignore the 360 part Chris Max talks about, but pay attention to the sequence and smooth is what gives you speed!