Maxing out @ 300ft...

[brussolino]

New to the board and game this year...loving every minute of it. I try to go out to the field and throw as much as I can, and I have run in to this problem...I get 250-300when i connect well, and my shoulder has been killing me for a few days...I have read this thread, and I think I just had an epiphany.

My background in sports is hockey, baseball, lacrosse, golf...alot of the same bio-mechanical ideas, snapping a towel, etc. comes pretty easy to me, but i could not for the life of me get a good rip off...a few days ago I got one 426' amongst all my 250-300 drives, yet I could not duplicate it...damn it felt good.

"pulling the disc" through the power range led me down a wrong path...I just realized that my grip location is on the side of the disc facing the target, all the way through the throw, when i should be gripping the disc 45 degrees away from my body, on the opposite side of the disc, would this be robbing me of the power? I felt like my body mechanics were good, but i could not get a good rip off...I think I have been gripping here since I started throwing...???I have been "pulling" the disc, literally...I feel like a dope...

 

[Lithicon]

I think what you're trying to say is that you're not "wrapping" around the disc when you do your pull back? If I am reading correctly, you're just holding it stationary and not spinning the disc any from the power zone to the hit. Meaning, you're not closing your wrist in when you get to the power zone? Think of it like this, you have a disc, and it has a groove to wrap a string like an old boat motor. You wrapped a string around it and when go to throw, your arm is the string. So when you're pulling through to the hit from the power zone, your unwrapping the disc in a sense.

 

[brussolino]

I think what you're trying to say is that you're not "wrapping" around the disc when you do your pull back? If I am reading correctly, you're just holding it stationary and not spinning the disc any from the power zone to the hit. Meaning, you're not closing your wrist in when you get to the power zone? Think of it like this, you have a disc, and it has a groove to wrap a string like an old boat motor. You wrapped a string around it and when go to throw, your arm is the string. So when you're pulling through to the hit from the power zone, your unwrapping the disc in a sense.

Right...If this is the case, it would kill my throws right? Robbing myself of "power"?

 

[Lithicon]

Yes, you're robbing yourself of a LOT of power with how you're doing it.

 

[JHern]

No doubt. If you are pulling from the front edge, then the only way to get any spin is to pull slightly back on the disc at the release. This is stealing forward velocity to get what probably amounts to only a small amount of spin on the disc. If you get your hand around the disc (go further than 45 degrees), you can whip the disc forward and give it spin at the same time...no backward pull is required in that case, and you can apply force effectively through the whip. Mastering this kind of motion is the key to snap.

 

[ReDisculous]

Quick question guys;

I feel like I am lacking finishing power in my throw. I have learned to get the disc up front while keeping the arm relaxed, by slowing down after rotating 90 degrees (from position 1 to 2)but I feel like I am all arm after that, as in my body is not adding much to my throw through the power zone. I talked to some of the guys that throw pretty far at my local course who say when they swing thier arm they are using "everything" (all of thier body) to throw. So I'm guessing this is my problem?

Does rotating from position 4 to position 5 in Keltik's diagram add a lot of power/arm speed?

I think perhaps I need to face up sooner than I am. When I watch the guys who throw far at my local course they really look like they aren't swinging thier arm until they are almost faced up (picture #5 but with a little more arm bend).

 

[Lithicon]

Yeah, sounds like you're pausing too much in your rotation taking away from the rotation gained between pulling the disc into the power zone, and pulling it out. Which sounds exactly like I was doing when I wasn't getting my weight forward enough, and it felt like I couldn't "complete" the throw. It's probably just a bit of both, but getting your weight forward will sort of pull your body through the motion, and keeps you from pausing too long, and will help you rotate out and finish stronger.

Does rotating from position 4 to position 5 in Keltik's diagram add a lot of power/arm speed?

Hard to tell by the diagram really, but this is really where you want to accelerate your pull, which is assisted by your bodies flow as it enters the power zone. I try to let the disc flow into the power zone then like you said as I acquire my target, start to pull.

 

[black udder]

Quick question guys;

I feel like I am lacking finishing power in my throw. I have learned to get the disc up front while keeping the arm relaxed, by slowing down after rotating 90 degrees (from position 1 to 2)but I feel like I am all arm after that, as in my body is not adding much to my throw through the power zone. I talked to some of the guys that throw pretty far at my local course who say when they swing thier arm they are using "everything" (all of thier body) to throw. So I'm guessing this is my problem?

Does rotating from position 4 to position 5 in Keltik's diagram add a lot of power/arm speed?

I think perhaps I need to face up sooner than I am. When I watch the guys who throw far at my local course they really look like they aren't swinging thier arm until they are almost faced up (picture #5 but with a little more arm bend).

You don't start to face up to the target until your forearm is in motion. That means elbow pauses to force the elbow open/forearm out, then while that happens, you continue to turn, your wrist starts to open, you pull hard and continue to pull through the finish.

You want to pull about 45 degrees before your target through 45 degrees past your target. That's the pull/finish zone.

While it looks like the players are facing up at release, the actual power of the throw is started before that.

 

[ReDisculous]

Thanks for that, I think you are right on with my pausing too long. Hopefully this will be the start of my next breakthrough.

 

[King_Scooter]

Quick question. ..do we have a video posted that is basically showing the steps of the diagram? I went out for some field practice Saturday and I pulled a muscle. Aka, I was doing it the old way on a couple throws.

The diagram makes sense, but I'm one of those ppl that need someone to show me in order for it to register in my head. So, a video would help a lot.

I've finally finished reading this thread. Thank God. Lol. We could really use all of the helpful posts consolidated into one primer I think.

 

[ReDisculous]

just watch the videos of masterbeato, his form is modeled by this technique.

 

[Lithicon]

just watch the videos of masterbeato, his form is modeled by this technique.

+1

I've finally finished reading this thread. Thank God. Lol. We could really use all of the helpful posts consolidated into one primer I think.

There are many people already working on this, when the site is rehosted under it's new format, these post as well as all the other informative post will be compiled. See the Compiling board post into coherent articles thread

 

[King_Scooter]

just watch the videos of masterbeato, his form is modeled by this technique.

I agree, but the video is just a straight on side view. Some kind of elevation for an over the top look of each step would be perfect.

 

[racer93]

Ok, so I have to give an update. I recently got back into the game after two years off. I was throwing about 350' max consistently and had HORRIBLE form (I was strong arming to the max.) I read and watched everything that was out there. I incorporated (or at least tried) the information I saw, but still couldn't get much over 400' or 425' on occasion. I was stumped.

Then I had some friends who can get 550' to 600'+ help me out. They said one thing--reach back further. As soon as I did, I broke 500' (star katana)! I couldn't believe it and still can't! Average golf line is now 475' or so and I think I can max closer to 550' once I get my form down and practice more. (My friends say that I'm still not reaching back all the way and have at least another 50-75' in my reach.)

Now I'm throwing PREDATORS (yes, predators!) on drives that would normally take my max D drivers (up to 360' or so)! I just want those who are reading this to know that it's possible to throw this far. Don't give up! Keep working and become almost obsesssed with getting it. You will. It's just like they say--it's an "A ha!" moment that has to happen.

Daniel

 

[JHern]

Its funny, but this is also one of the things that gave me a big boost in distance. One day I just got really angry, and when I reached back, I reached back all the way until I could feel the muscles in my back at their maximum stretch (especially the ones below my shoulder blade), and I made sure I felt this before beginning my pull. Et voila. I threw my Destroyer 370'. And next my Champion Boss went the same distance.

Every time I go for max distance, I always reach back until I feel that muscle stretched, and on the pull through I really go for the feeling of pulling off my index and middle finger tips on the inside of the rim and whipping the disc forward with spin.

I'm still only scraping around 400' when I'm throwing well...and I think I have become quite good at the full reach back method. But for me to go further, the bent elbow is calling...I think a shortened motion with even more leverage applied to the pivot point of my index and middle finger tips is the way to go, and indeed the distance will eventually come. For the last 2.5 years I've been playing, I've been throwing farther and farther and farther, and I don't expect that to stop for a while!

 

[racer93]

I'm still only scraping around 400' when I'm throwing well...and I think I have become quite good at the full reach back method. But for me to go further, the bent elbow is calling...I think a shortened motion with even more leverage applied to the pivot point of my index and middle finger tips is the way to go, and indeed the distance will eventually come. For the last 2.5 years I've been playing, I've been throwing farther and farther and farther, and I don't expect that to stop for a while!

I found that I must have been doing most everything else right EXCEPT the reachback. Keeping it close (thereby making the elbow bend to the fullest), pulling really late, etc. I even hear the massive "semi-truck going 75mph on fire" sound that Masterbeato describes the disc making as it leaves my hand. It has made me be almost in awe of what I can do now, as I've wanted this to happen for years. It's just great to reach a goal you've set, you know?

 

[PieMethod]

Two facts:

Fact 1: 300 ft is about as far as most men can throw using primarily the strength of their arm to propel the disc. For women it is closer to 230 ft.

Fact 2: The fact that you get the same distance no matter how you do your step implies that you aren't getting anything out of your legs, which drive your torso, which is the platform for your shoulders...

The sum:

Fact 1 + Fact 2 = You're strong-arming, throwing with your arm, and you're not getting much of anything from your torso and shoulders.

Your arm is of order 10X less powerful than your legs/torso. Stop throwing with your arm! Your arm is only useful for positioning and gripping, other than that, it is purely passive. Your arm needs to be turned into a whip that is driven by the powerful motion of your legs/hips/torso/shoulders.

Here's an exercise I might suggest:

Stand still with your arms at your side, completely relaxed. Turn your hips and torso back slowly and then rotate your hips quickly to the open position. Your arms should be whipped out and around in a windmill motion, without you using a single muscle in your arms. That's the feeling you should be aiming for.

Next do the same thing, except extend your throwing elbow out sideways from your body and hold it there (as if you put a vice around your shoulder). Allow your lower throwing arm and hand to hang limp from your elbow. Do it as if your arm were asleep and some mechanical device was locked onto your shoulder to keep the elbow pointed out side ways from your torso. Don't allow your elbow to move forward or backward, nor up nor down. It is completely locked in place, as if you no longer even had a shoulder joint and your upper arm were fused into your shoulder so that it would always point out sideways.

Now slowly turn your hips and torso back, and turn them abruptly open again. Don't use a single muscle in your arm! Now you should find that you've turned your arm into a whip. Your lower arm should be whipping forward super-fast. In fact, you can whip your lower arm forward way faster in this manner than your arm muscles could ever dream of doing. Your arm muscle strength decreases rapidly as speed increases, so they are useless anyways...trying to use them will only slow down this motion. You'll find that whipping your lower arm forward in this manner, with the elbow "stopped," will feel relatively effortless in comparison to trying to throw with your arm as you've probably been doing before.

Practice getting this feeling for a while. (Later you can work on the grip and positioning in finer detail, but for now focus on using your legs/hips/torso/shoulders as the powerful motor for whipping your arm forward.)

I just got home from a great day of playing at my local course and applied this technique to my games and saw an immediate improvement in my game all day. Thank you JHern.

 

[racer93]

With wind/elevation, you could be as far as 450'-500'... Most of the long holes I see have some elevation. just sayin' I don't think you're as far off as you think.

Just to let you know, BU, you were right. All I had to do was have a local big gun point out that I needed to reach back further (I was only reaching back to my L shoulder). Once I did, I was reaching ~500'. BTW, that was my goal for the year, so now my new goal is 600'. We shall see...

One thing that Bradley said a while back in a thread (don't know which, I can't find it) was about the wrist and seeing how important it is in putting. I found that to be EXTREMELY important in straddle putting from outside the circle. If you keep the wrist straight and allow the "spring" (wrist) to compress (disc is accelerating) and then extend (disc is leaving your hand) simply due to the forces involved, you can get serious putting D and very good putting accuracy. Wanted to give props out to BW for this. I don't think I understood him the first time he said it.

I appreciate all the help you guys gave. It helped me tremendously.

 

[JHern]

...
Here's an exercise I might suggest:...

I just got home from a great day of playing at my local course and applied this technique to my games and saw an immediate improvement in my game all day. Thank you JHern.

You're quite welcome DiscinLeopard. By practicing this technique, I broke well over the 300' mark, even though I still wasn't getting a great deal of snap. By reaching all the way back, I was getting up to 370'. Keep working on it, but also think about returning to the right pec drill, and putting 2 & 2 together. Once you can put your body in the positions to gain power through your torso, all you need is to slow down/pause when facing 90 degrees to the target, get the disc into your right pec, and then channel all your body's power into the final whip, making sure you are getting your hand around the disc and opening the wrist before the disc rips off your pivot fingers.

Today I scored 13 birdies over 2 rounds of 18. I had 4 in a row during one hot streak. I was parking stuff at will, using a variety of discs and lines. But my putting sucks, and I had more bogies than birdies, caused when my drives went askew. I'm still shopping for a new putter (I'm between the Pro D Challenger and the Wizard right now), and totally out of the groove.

Anyways, I can reach 400' over flat ground most of the time I want to do so. I'm beginning to feel the real snap (though still not fully), and it is already a huge transition in my game, taking my drives to a whole new level.

 

[jubuttib]

Sorry for the wall of text.

So it's summer and I went to my folks. Been here for 3 days, will stay for a week. I have a field nearby that's never used by anyone, so I can practice every day. And I have, 5 hours per day for the first two days, 2+ hours today (slept in something severe).

The first day I decided to really try loosening myself up, because at the Feldberg clinic I saw that the disc just dangled between his fingers most of the time. So I grabbed as lightly as I could manage. My form felt looser and easier, I definitely wasn't overpowering with my arm, not as much as before at least. I tried to increase my grip strength towards the end of the throw, but kept misstiming it and never really hit it.

The second day I decided to really focus on strenghtening the grip at the hit. I kept scratching my forefinger with my thumbnail the first day, and remembered that Feldy was advocating 70/30 back/front grip pressure for driving, so I focused on my middle through pinky fingers. Started feeling a lot more pressure as the disc was leaving my hand. The good rips were also going around 30 degrees to the right, which was to be expected, I wasn't hitting it at all before. Timing work was needed.

Today I changed my grip a bit (using Feldy's grip) by positioning my middle and ring fingers a bit differently, also changed the angle so that there's pretty much zero pad touching the rim. This clearly helped me lock my grip tighter, and within two throws my fingers were completely numb to the touch, and aching something fierce. When I felt comfortable with the modified grip, I decided to add some wrist action. A little fiddling led to better nose down and more spin. My aim also got significantly better, discs launching where I aimed them, but turning over more than I'm used to and not coming back as soon as they used to either, so most throws still ended to the right of where I aimed.

The results? Lately I've been averaging about 320-350', with the occasional good rip going around 380' or so. Been in a bit of a slump. The first day I raised my average to 360-380', with good rips going 400' plus. The second day I raised my average to around 400', with particularly good one's going around 420+'. Today I was consistently hitting around 420' if I got my release angle right, and I'm starting to run out of space. Had to cut the session short because I was worrying about losing my discs; they're flying over the fence and into the woods when throwing one way, and landing on a road/people's yards when throwing the other.

Before I was worried I was doing something fundamentally wrong with my drive, turns out rethinking it a bit and going back to the basics (relaxation and only gripping at the hit) did more than I could have imagined. Otherwise I really haven't done anything to my form.

My two favorite shots today were back-to-back line drives with my Pro Destroyer and FR Nuke, both went where I wanted them to, landed within a few feet of eachother and never went above 10' in height. Distance was around 440-450'.

I should have listened when people talked about the importance of relaxation, throwing is more effortless now, and the main muscles I'm tiring seem to be in my forearm, due to my fingers finally doing the work they were supposed to be doing from the start.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to the techniques, I've just been too much of an ass to fully acknowledge them. =)

EDIT: By the way, the distance I get seems to almost solely depend on where I feel the rip. If I feel like my pinkie, ring and middle fingers are being ripped out of my hand, the disc flies damn far with lots of spin and a clean release, also usually very nose down. If I feel the rip in my index finger, the disc doesn't launch nearly as fast, feels and flies like a slip every time, usually with nose up. I can usually tell where the disc will end up just by which fingers tingle after the release.