Maxing out @ 300ft...

[emiller3]

If I do it a lot, it makes all the blood rush to my fingers and that hurts pretty quickly... think super pins and needles.

this usually = hyper extending the elbow = sign of mistiming.

Mistiming as in waiting too long to do the post elbow-chop rotation?

I'm curious as to the answer as well, because I sometimes get pins and needles in my hand. I know my elbow extension often occurs later than it should, but I don't know if that's the cause of the problem.

I was trying this elbow pause thing you guys have been talking about and it led to me throwing my elbow way out in front of my front shoulder before I initiated the elbow extension. I could feel my forearm accelerate open when my elbow stopped, but it was painful to my shoulder and I was out of position. I had to start consciously pausing when it reached my front shoulder, but I'm finding it much harder to get my elbow to extend with the same amount of acceleration. Do you guys consciously stop your elbow at a particular place, and does the elbow naturally extend when you do that?

 

[Blake_T1]

one thing i'm going to say here is that you guys are getting more complicated than it needs to be. the exact understanding of the what and the why doesn't make you (able to) do it.

that being said, i'll nerd it up a bit.

elbow extension facilitates wrist extension. if your hand goes numb, your arm is straightening all the way too early (before the directional change has occurred) and you are tweaking your elbow to the point that it affects the nerves in your hand.

the thing is, the arm shouldn't straighten all the way before the disc leaves. now ideally you would find the exact point where the arm straightens all the way at the exact time the directional change occurs giving maximum elbow extension force to trigger the wrist extension. however, no one really reaches that point nor is it something really worth aspiring for unless you can perform it with pretty much 100% success.

building off Brad's throwing a hammer idea, pick up a pen or pencil and hold it at one end and backhand it across the room (you don't need to use much if any torso rotation for this). try to make the pen fly straight ahead with a lot of zip. i'm 99% certain you will fling the pen without your elbow straightening all the way but you will likely have tons of wrist extension.

part of timing means you have to allow for certain motions to happen when they should and not trying to force an absolute body position without regard to the flow of the disc.

tossing a pen/pencil a dozen times or should probably give you a rough idea of how much the elbow will want to straighten (keeping in mind a larger mass object will make it straighten a bit more than the pen) in order to facilitate wrist extension.

always remember that it's how you impart the forces you generate onto the disc that are more important than any body position.

 

[black udder]

If I do it a lot, it makes all the blood rush to my fingers and that hurts pretty quickly... think super pins and needles.

this usually = hyper extending the elbow = sign of mistiming.

I won't doubt the mistiming and I have hyper extended the elbow, but it's not all the time by any stretch. It happens when I emulate a fast throw...just centrifugal force as far as I know.

 

[Blake_T1]

I won't doubt the mistiming and I have hyper extended the elbow, but it's not all the time by any stretch. It happens when I emulate a fast throw...just centrifugal force as far as I know.

emulating a fast throw, rather than focusing on a throw that moves the disc with increasing speed can lead to that. the wrist releases when the forearm changes direction. it stops moving forwards and starts moving sideways to the right. the hyper extension happens when the directional change doesn't happen until you "run out of arm" and the abrupt forced directional change tweaks it.

 

[black udder]

I won't doubt the mistiming and I have hyper extended the elbow, but it's not all the time by any stretch. It happens when I emulate a fast throw...just centrifugal force as far as I know.

emulating a fast throw, rather than focusing on a throw that moves the disc with increasing speed can lead to that. the wrist releases when the forearm changes direction. it stops moving forwards and starts moving sideways to the right. the hyper extension happens when the directional change doesn't happen until you "run out of arm" and the abrupt forced directional change tweaks it.

It only happens if I throw without a disc. If I throw with a disc, I never have the problem. It's just the whipping of the open fingers... now, when you practice, do you open the hand? I hadn't thought about that until now. When doing it open handed, I extend my wrist with my fingers extended. When I throw, I'm still gripping, so I don't... might be the answer to my problem.

 

[keltik1]

Quick timing question: I get that you tighten up your forearm, wrist and grip at position 5 in Keltik's drawing (right? seems to work for me). Basically the instant before the hit.

However, I don't know when to tense up and put power into the elbow/upper arm. I'm thinking position 3. I'm not sure if this is part of what stops the elbow, a result of it, or unrelated.

Or does the upper arm get tensed up later, like right before tightening up the forearm at either position 5 or somewhere between 4 and 5?

Any comment on this, Blake or Beato?

from my conversations and readings with Blake et al, it was my understanding that the hit actually came between pictures 3 & 4 (or was it 4 & 5?) and 5 & 6 were just follow through "positions". It's always been my understanding that you don't ever really use any power in the upper arm. you just use minor tension to move the disc into place or what have you.

 

[keltik1]

Follow up to the above post:

last night I had a brain melting phone call with Blake_T (a very interesting and personable guy on the phone). we went over the diagram I made along with Russian history, regional dietetic legacy, brain neuron development, and guitar theory.

so on to the diagram:

1. the weight of the torso needs to be over the back leg. this "position" is when you plant the front foot at the end of the X-step. It is extremely important that your nipples are facing between 150 & 180° away from the target. where you reach back with your arm is all preference. but it is better to reach back to a place where it is easiest to keep the disc close to the chest.

2. just like before hips are turning. this is the first turning element of the throw.

1 -> 2 this transfer is all feet legs and hips. everything with the arm/hand is just a guide or a passive control.
2 -> 3 is all shoulder turn but you need to start your pull at the end of "3"

1-> 3 all of the upper body movement is incidental or automatic resulting from the hip/foot movement this is also the start of the weight transfer

3 -> 4 the weight of the chest should be moving toward the front foot. the skateboard kick is not really a hard kick but it is an easy way to get the center of mass moving around to the front. also the front foot should stop rotation at 90° +/- to the target.

4 -> 5 is the proverbial Hit. the elbow stops moving toward the target and starts moving to the right (if you are a righty). This movement allows the forearm to release the wrist. also during this movement the elbow should stay between 120 & 160° (180° being a fully straightened/extended).

5 -> 6 is the follow through and the foot is now allowed to rotate towards the target. personally i try to do it on my heel for physiological reasons.

3 -> 5 is the "Power Zone" meaning that the arm is actively moving and that it is accelerating the disc.

i still think the best thing Blake said in that 3 hour phone conversation was this: FOCUS ON THE DISC

everything else, these articles/threads, diagrams what have you are just general guidelines and basically food for thought. you have to put all these things into practice and adjust slightly for whatever physiological anomaly you suffer from. I myself have a wingspan that is 4" longer than my height and thusly i can't straighten my arm/elbow without my forearm twisting slightly.

everything i'm doing here is trying to get lower powered players into the correct motions. the work from the likes of Bradley Walker and others is for making the next step into BIG D.

 

[black udder]

good write-up.

 

[Lithicon]

Yeah, Cheers Keltik. I was debating about doing something like that, but didn't have the time. And, didn't want to really bother Blake to see if I was correctly explaining it.

But, I concur about the conversations with Blake, I have yet to call him and I'm not sure I want to. We've have some lengthy conversations about the most random shit. It's amazing, and he says he's not ADHD, and well that's one thing we discussed too. LAWLZ! :lol:

 

[bcsst26]

eh what the hell....I cooked this up this morning with help from the Grand Yoda himself (Blake)
it's a diagram of the American style swing. i broke it down into six different positions.

1. turn the hips
2. turn the shoulders to perpendicular to the target & slide the disc to right pec area
3. stop the elbow and begin forearm rotation
4. skateboard kick the back leg & allow the heel to pivot
5. rotate shoulders and allow weight to come forward
6. follow through

I now accept all complaints and rotten tomatoes.

Follow up to the above post:

last night I had a brain melting phone call with Blake_T (a very interesting and personable guy on the phone). we went over the diagram I made along with Russian history, regional dietetic legacy, brain neuron development, and guitar theory.

so on to the diagram:

1. the weight of the torso needs to be over the back leg. this "position" is when you plant the front foot at the end of the X-step. It is extremely important that your nipples are facing between 150 & 180° away from the target. where you reach back with your arm is all preference. but it is better to reach back to a place where it is easiest to keep the disc close to the chest.

2. just like before hips are turning. this is the first turning element of the throw.

1 -> 2 this transfer is all feet legs and hips. everything with the arm/hand is just a guide or a passive control.
2 -> 3 is all shoulder turn but you need to start your pull at the end of "3"

1-> 3 all of the upper body movement is incidental or automatic resulting from the hip/foot movement this is also the start of the weight transfer

3 -> 4 the weight of the chest should be moving toward the front foot. the skateboard kick is not really a hard kick but it is an easy way to get the center of mass moving around to the front. also the front foot should stop rotation at 90° +/- to the target.

4 -> 5 is the proverbial Hit. the elbow stops moving toward the target and starts moving to the right (if you are a righty). This movement allows the forearm to release the wrist. also during this movement the elbow should stay between 120 & 160° (180° being a fully straightened/extended).

5 -> 6 is the follow through and the foot is not allowed to rotate towards the target. personally i try to do it on my heel for physiological reasons.

3 -> 5 is the "Power Zone" meaning that the arm is actively moving and that it is accelerating the disc.

i still think the best thing Blake said in that 3 hour phone conversation was this: FOCUS ON THE DISC

everything else, these articles/threads, diagrams what have you are just general guidelines and basically food for thought. you have to put all these things into practice and adjust slightly for whatever physiological anomaly you suffer from. I myself have a wingspan that is 4" longer than my height and thusly i can't straighten my arm/elbow without my forearm twisting slightly.

everything i'm doing here is trying to get lower powered players into the correct motions. the work from the likes of Bradley Walker and others is for making the next step into BIG D.



Here put the two together for ya. I couldn't go back and forth. Good write up.

 

[keltik1]

thanks guys

good copy edit there bcsst26. hadn't seen you around a lot lately but I do remember that you are a big student of form also.

I think Blake's phone conversations are worth it. now I need to remember everything he told me about putting so I can add that to the short arm apex pitch putting.

I think I also need to make a short comic about throwing a little red wagon off a cliff.

 

[mark12b]

5 -> 6 is the follow through and the foot is not allowed to rotate towards the target. personally i try to do it on my heel for physiological reasons.

i believe this should be "5 -> 6 is the follow through and the foot is now allowed to rotate..."

and, thanks for the followup, this is a great thread. the stuff about body positions *allowing* things to happen correctly is making me look at my throw differently for sure..

 

[keltik1]

yes Mark you are correct. it should be now able to turn/pivot.

yes kids even the DGR grammar nazi can stumble.

 

[masterbeato]

reading all this brings me back to when i struggled with this stuff. was not very fun, just forced myself into doing it because i knew in my mind from what i felt, and what i felt in my heart, i knew i would be improving my game in the long run by a lot.

 

[Monocacy]

Keltik and Blake, thank you for putting this together. Matching description and illustration makes the timing so much clearer. I can't wait to try this out. I tried throwing putters a few times today but griplocked a throw just as my arm was warming up, and wading through a soggy snowdrift in my work shoes ended the practice session prematurely.

Melt, damned snow! I have new techniques to try and new plastic that needs to be thrown, but ice bowls are getting canceled and security kicked me out of the open parking lot where I was practicing. How far south of Maryland must one travel to escape snow cover? :x

(ranting while searching for duct tape and brightly-colored ribbon)

 

[keltik1]

Keltik and Blake, thank you for putting this together. Matching description and illustration makes the timing so much clearer. I can't wait to try this out. I tried throwing putters a few times today but griplocked a throw just as my arm was warming up, and wading through a soggy snowdrift in my work shoes ended the practice session prematurely.

Melt, damned snow! I have new techniques to try and new plastic that needs to be thrown, but ice bowls are getting canceled and security kicked me out of the open parking lot where I was practicing. How far south of Maryland must one travel to escape snow cover? :x

(ranting while searching for duct tape and brightly-colored ribbon)

We're all clear here in NC. I'm not sure about between here and Richmond but I know we've got it goin' on right now.

 

[Mad Scientist]

This thread appeals to me, since my drives max out under 300' - they gain altitude, stall, and fade hard to the left.

I'm slowly reading through all the posts in this thread, but in the meantime - what disc(s) would be a good canidate to use while practicing these techniques to break 300'?

 

[Blake_T1]

This thread appeals to me, since my drives max out under 300' - they gain altitude, stall, and fade hard to the left.

this is indicative of nose up. fixing this can be practiced with any disc.

 

[bcsst26]

thanks guys

good copy edit there bcsst26. hadn't seen you around a lot lately but I do remember that you are a big student of form also.

I think Blake's phone conversations are worth it. now I need to remember everything he told me about putting so I can add that to the short arm apex pitch putting.

I think I also need to make a short comic about throwing a little red wagon off a cliff.

Yeah I have been digging this thread. The problem is I haven't thrown probably since Nov. Between getting dark to early,kids, and the never ending snow I haven't made it out. I still read everything and try the indoor stuff but without actually throwing I really do not have many comments. This is some of the best discussion though that I have seen for some time. Hopefully this long layoff will help me forget strong arming it and change things right this time.

Here is a quick question. I think I have it down how to stop the elbow and have your arm chop. My question is that when this chopping starts I feel like my wrist opens up to quick. Of course no throwing to verify anything but do you guys concentrate on keeping your hand on the opposite side of the disc or do you just let it happen.

 

[keltik1]

Here is a quick question. I think I have it down how to stop the elbow and have your arm chop. My question is that when this chopping starts I feel like my wrist opens up to quick. Of course no throwing to verify anything but do you guys concentrate on keeping your hand on the opposite side of the disc or do you just let it happen.

I just let it happen. that's just me. once you get going full speed with a disc in your hand the timing will fall closer into place, I suspect. I too have cabin fever and want to get out and throw. and yes i'm a pussy when it comes to playing in the cold and snow etc.