Jaysus
Double Eagle Member
So.... no link to an official PDGA announcement or anything like that?
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[Gateway] Medium Wizards No Longer PDGA Legal?
- Thread starter Lurp Nuts
- Start date
Future_Primitive
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2012
- Messages
- 1,773
You took a step farther than I was really asking for, guess I didn't look far enough ahead. In all honesty I would be happy just getting to the point of Mold + Plastic Type = PDGA approval, rather than just approving a Mold alone.
But it does bring up a good point, how consistent is the plastic pellets/resin from batch to batch? Would they be willing to add Heat/Lot/Batch numbers so there is a method to knowing which batch said disc came from? Or is it something that can be mandated by the PDGA during approval process?
I have seen discs marked "First Run" from various companies, so it is within the realm of possibility. Don't see why it could not be added to the stamping process. Just a small notation of batch #12345 or even month/year or any internal method they have already. With Quality Control and ISO around, one would think these big companies already keep this information for their own piece of mind, just not putting on the discs themselves.
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
A date would be great. It would make standards enforcement easier for everyone. I can't imagine that would add a whole lot of money to our dues either...
You're very optimistic. It's possible that a couple of the smaller manufacturers do that, but I'm certain that the bigger ones don't. They order batches of plastic that are close to what they want at good prices, when they run out they order whatever is available then. If you look at the manufacturers' threads over on the PDGA forum, they can almost never answer questions about specific runs or blends of plastic.
Future_Primitive
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2012
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You are probably correct, but I am wondering at what point the lose track of it. I would speculate they know how many discs they ran out of Batch A on the shop floor, how many were scrapped, how many had defects, and how many passed. Just to be able to better control their costs. Generally the stuff happening on the shop floor is paid quite a bit of attention as those numbers have value. Did they make money? Are they on schedule? Do they need to run more shifts?
I would concur that once they run them and package them, ship them out across the country that they then lose all that information in regards to a specific disc sold in any store. At that point the information has no value to them, they dont do recalls so who cares what batch ended up in Indiana last month? So currently they may not have the means to tell you, but if they wanted to or had to I think they could solve this problem, if properly motivated to. But at this point in time, why bother tracking it after it has been made? No value, so wasted time and energy. Just my opinion of course.
steve a
* Ace Member *
I know the pdga may not be able to impose fines on the companies but if they were to do random/reported checks of certain plastics and molds and deem them illegal then the manufacturers would really want to pay attention. The first of this seems to be gateway's medium and g9i wizards. Can you imagine the outrage if the pdga said champion firebirds are to stiff for pdga approval. If they can not pass the test will they be treated the same as gateway?
tbird888
Salient Disc Test Team
Can't link to something that doesn't exist, and probably won't. But the conspiracy folks won't let that stop a good thread.
The PDGA told Gateway to stop shipping discs that don't meet flexibility standards. That's it. No ban is forthcoming. Medium wizards are not going to be illegal for competition, including the ones already shipped out to retailers. So if you got them, keep throwing them with no fear.
Lurp Nuts
* Ace Member *
if there has been no official statement, where is this information coming from?
notroman
* Ace Member *
The guy that started the thread (you) saying he tried to order Medium Wizards from Gateway and they said they couldn't sell any to him.
When I was at the Gateway shop in December I was told the same - PDGA asked Dave to pull all G9i and Medium stock from the shelves because it did not meet flex specifications.
Last edited:
Lurp Nuts
* Ace Member *
Who was that anyway?
vs.
Just trying to streamline information here, so there is no actual ban on PDGA use of Mediums and G9i?
I really wish there would be an official statement so I can start making plans for Softs, or not.
Kp0c
Eagle Member
Here is a response from Dave himself. I waited to post it because he didn't give me his approval. I asked him over a week ago and got no response, so I will assume he doesn't mind.
Dave:
I think the discussion on e dgcr is rather inaccurate and getting out of control.
no discs of ours that are pdga approved have been considered illegal by the pdga.
jeff Homburg ( who represents the pdga for tec standards testing) emailed me that a run of our discs (G9i) was too stiff and we volunteered to stop selling both g9i and mediums in all models for now.
as you and the rest of the players know theres more innova drivers that do not pass the pdga tech standards for flex out there than all other companies "legal" discs combined in play at most pdga events.
the only 2 mens open players i know of that won pdga worlds championships or usdgc without a firm putter and approach in the least 23 years ( that didnt pass pdga tech standards were ron russell and eric McCabe). everyone else had firm putters. its possible Nate doss may not have used too firm discs but i think he had really firm magnets at some point.
Its true the g9i's were pretty stiff,,we are just trying to give customers what they want.
End of quote.
Please keep in mind it was written on a mobile device, which may explan the typos.
Dave:
I think the discussion on e dgcr is rather inaccurate and getting out of control.
no discs of ours that are pdga approved have been considered illegal by the pdga.
jeff Homburg ( who represents the pdga for tec standards testing) emailed me that a run of our discs (G9i) was too stiff and we volunteered to stop selling both g9i and mediums in all models for now.
as you and the rest of the players know theres more innova drivers that do not pass the pdga tech standards for flex out there than all other companies "legal" discs combined in play at most pdga events.
the only 2 mens open players i know of that won pdga worlds championships or usdgc without a firm putter and approach in the least 23 years ( that didnt pass pdga tech standards were ron russell and eric McCabe). everyone else had firm putters. its possible Nate doss may not have used too firm discs but i think he had really firm magnets at some point.
Its true the g9i's were pretty stiff,,we are just trying to give customers what they want.
End of quote.
Please keep in mind it was written on a mobile device, which may explan the typos.
notroman
* Ace Member *
Well, the way Dave made it sound is that PDGA is differentiating these discs by stamps. They initially wanted Dave to pull all Wizards with the small Wizard throwing stamp on them because that's the stamp G9i used. Dave informed them that it's the stamp he uses for all low volume runs of Wizards, including RFF Wizards, so that won't work. That being said, he can't sell G9i Wizards with PDGA approved in the tooling anymore because they are too stiff. They can't ban the entire Wizard line up, and since the G9i doesn't have a G9i stamp they can't really tell which disc to ban... It's a tricky situation. Dave is just going by what PDGA asks - and they asked to pull current G9i stock with PDGA approved tooling and ask that he does not make any more G9i's with the approved message on them.
Medium Wizards are easy. They have a stamp that specifically says Medium Wizard. By PDGA request, he has to pull all Medium Wizards that say they're PDGA approved off the store shelves, and any future runs of Medium Wizards can't have the PDGA approved tooling in them as long as they remain as stiff as they are.
I don't see anything on PDGA that specifically says Medium and G9i Wizards are banned, but the fact that they asked for these discs to be pulled from the store shelves is true.
Medium Wizards are easy. They have a stamp that specifically says Medium Wizard. By PDGA request, he has to pull all Medium Wizards that say they're PDGA approved off the store shelves, and any future runs of Medium Wizards can't have the PDGA approved tooling in them as long as they remain as stiff as they are.
I don't see anything on PDGA that specifically says Medium and G9i Wizards are banned, but the fact that they asked for these discs to be pulled from the store shelves is true.
Lurp Nuts
* Ace Member *
Thanks Kp0c! Some much needed useful info.
plastic cannon
* Ace Member *
Looks like I'll have to start hunting really stiff softs. I don't know that I would be handling it as good as Dave is. Especially when he knows innova gets away with this all the time.
The post by the buy that does the measurements indicated that he encouraged Dave at Gateway to send in discs from other manufacturers that didn't pass the flexibility test, and Dave declined to do so. I don't think there's some big conspiracy here, just apathy on the part of everyone who has been offered the chance to turn in other discs.
Huk Finn
* Ace Member *
Pre-Ban G9. Molon Labe!!
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