On the edge of professional Disc Golf

[wildwing]

Personally, I think watching disc golf on TV would be comparable to watching ball golf yet more exciting and fun to watch. Disc golf takes much less time to complete a round than ball golf so it is more "fast paced". You can admire shots by both ball and disc golfers but I think discs are nicer to watch in the air . I think the DG atmosphere is a bit more leisurely and therefore inviting. TV coverage would be a great idea, methinks. It's not any worse than watching fishing!

I think DG would be great to watch on TV if they used those cameras that swing down from high above, ESPN style. Picture a Pro about to throw from the pad with the camera staring down to have the thrower and the length of the fairway in focus. Then the cam swings down and settles behind the thrower, then the discs flies out. I picture the first time me seeing a disc fly straight like a rocket down the fairway, totally dropped my jaw.

They can have a tourney in downtown streets almost like some Urban DG tourneys i've heard about. Maybe have a big ring of fire as mando hanging a few feet in the air. Or have players tee-off from one building roof to the next one across.

Sorry, I sometimes have a lot of time on my hands at work.

 

[Grungedude42]

I love the concept of an urban tournament, complete with ring of fire mandos.
Disc golf lacks the "eXtr3me" vibe of skateboarding. We're more on level with curling. :\
Without the glitz and glamour, we're doing great along the slow, steady growth path. I doubt we'll ever have an overnight explosion.

 

[scarpfish]

Ahh, here we go with the pie in the sky idealistic visions of disc golf on television again. Some of you might as well tell us what hair color the waitress who brings you your hot wings and pitcher of me is going to be, when you're watching 2020 Worlds on the big screen at a sports bar.

Thing is if some of you would realize it, disc golf is already on "television". Its called Youtube. It and Netflix, and Hulu and various streaming services are the perfect television for fledgling sports like ours. And if you'd also realize it, television as you've always known it, isn't going to be the television of the future.

 

[disc qualified]

Also I just wanted to comment on the whole "drunk stoner" argument that's going on here. For starters, professional athletes of any sport have indulged in things far worse than weed and alcohol (even while performing their sport). And I'm sure many professional disc golfers smoke and drink on the course, not necessarily during tournaments but I'm sure it happens in casual and formal rounds. Professional athletes are not any different from you or me. In fact, these large institutions allow them to get away with murder because there is so much money involved. So I think that some lowly disc golfer getting high on the course is one of our least concerns.

the naivete of this post should be startling but isn't

are you aware of how public perception can lead to getting courses pulled?

"lowly disc golfer getting high on the course" is doing something illegal (in most places) and if a course gets a reputation as a smoker's haven the next step is pressure to have the course pulled.

i really don't care what your thoughts are in regards to the current state of american drug policy. marijuana is illegal in most places. period. condoning an illegal activity and dismissing it as harmless is selfish and shortsighted.

 

[curveball4]

I've never been to a pay to play course, all the courses around me are in city or county parks with no entry fees. But a serious question- if they made me pay for DG does that mean others would have to pay to use the dog park? Would parents have to pay for their kids to use the playground? As somebody said earlier, & I agree, my taxes help support the local parks. If there wasn't a DG course, they would still have to mow these areas & the local club does most of the maintenance anyways, besides the mowing.
If it's a private course I totally understand, they don't have tax dollars coming in to help for upkeep. I see the point that fees may keep some of the riff raff away but most of the folks I see around here doing that stuff aren't playing DG to begin with. They're usually hiding in the woods along the course somewhere.
If they make me pay for DG I think the park itself should have a fee to enter, why should I be singled out?

 

[ScottyLove]

As I read this thread, to me it seems like folks are mixing up topics.

Jussi's article was about "professionalism"... not "growing the sport". Sure the sport is growing by leaps and bounds and that is aided by the fact that it is mostly free to play. Super! That's good for growth and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "professionalism".

Adding more top caliber courses on pristine private land and making them pay-to-play helps the professionalism part and really doesn't do much for growth. There is really no reason to lump these two distinct topics together... at the moment anyway.

By improving the six key tenants of the article, the professional side will grow and it is quite possible that can someday lead to more grass roots growth as more FANS become aware of the sport via the professional channels Jussi and others (myself included) are trying to accomplish.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I've never been to a pay to play course, all the courses around me are in city or county parks with no entry fees. But a serious question- if they made me pay for DG does that mean others would have to pay to use the dog park? Would parents have to pay for their kids to use the playground? As somebody said earlier, & I agree, my taxes help support the local parks. If there wasn't a DG course, they would still have to mow these areas & the local club does most of the maintenance anyways, besides the mowing.
If it's a private course I totally understand, they don't have tax dollars coming in to help for upkeep. I see the point that fees may keep some of the riff raff away but most of the folks I see around here doing that stuff aren't playing DG to begin with. They're usually hiding in the woods along the course somewhere.
If they make me pay for DG I think the park itself should have a fee to enter, why should I be singled out?

Most public p2p courses do have fees just to "be there" or an entry/parking free. Don't be fooled by private course status not getting tax dollars though as they very well can get them just as much as a community park but would need a non-profit status or some type of ROI agreement. Many private entities hold "public parks" as ways to defer taxable income etc..

Either you have property taxes through the roof like some areas in MN b/c all the parks which are "free" or you pay to get in. Not many are JUST for Disc golf and if that is the case its because disc golf takes up the majority of the developed footprint within the park and doesn't generate its own income like a pavilion does when rented, fields for baseball games etc.

 

[scarpfish]

I've never been to a pay to play course, all the courses around me are in city or county parks with no entry fees. But a serious question- if they made me pay for DG does that mean others would have to pay to use the dog park? Would parents have to pay for their kids to use the playground? As somebody said earlier, & I agree, my taxes help support the local parks. If there wasn't a DG course, they would still have to mow these areas & the local club does most of the maintenance anyways, besides the mowing.

When the disc golf course in question doesn't have dedicated and exclusive space, as many of our courses do not, I think users have a legitimate beef with the idea of a user fee to access it when walkers, bikers, playing children can have access to that same area for free. For that reason alone, I don't see pay to play ever becoming universal.

The thing is, when a course does have dedicated space, and the city is maintaining it for exclusive disc golf use, the idea of a user fee to help keep it maintained isn't that unreasonable. There are numbers of other public amenities that get public funding but also charge user fees, ball golf courses perhaps being the best example.

I have heard the "my taxes pay for this already" argument before. The fact is, unless you stick to your hometown course exclusively, your taxes don't pay for squat compared to what the locals in that other taxing jurisdiction are.

Some of you also need to understand, that if we can reach the point where disc golf courses become self-sufficient from user fees, it might inspire more entities, both public and private, to start building the longer and more challenging courses some of us want.

 

[JC17393]

I've never been to a pay to play course, all the courses around me are in city or county parks with no entry fees. But a serious question- if they made me pay for DG does that mean others would have to pay to use the dog park? Would parents have to pay for their kids to use the playground? As somebody said earlier, & I agree, my taxes help support the local parks. If there wasn't a DG course, they would still have to mow these areas & the local club does most of the maintenance anyways, besides the mowing.
If it's a private course I totally understand, they don't have tax dollars coming in to help for upkeep. I see the point that fees may keep some of the riff raff away but most of the folks I see around here doing that stuff aren't playing DG to begin with. They're usually hiding in the woods along the course somewhere.
If they make me pay for DG I think the park itself should have a fee to enter, why should I be singled out?

I would expect that if you are paying only to use the disc golf course within a park (and the playground or walking paths, etc are free), then some form of exclusive access must come with it. In other words, if you pay a fee to access the disc golf course, you aren't going to have to deal with other park users wandering across/along your fairway or setting up a picnic next to the 8th basket. If you're not getting that with your fee, then yeah, I would hope everyone else in the park is paying to get in as well.

Maybe I'm spoiled living in an area where it's all privately owned pay-to-play courses, but to me it's worth the price of admission simply to have a plot of land dedicated exclusively to my activity. I'm not the weird guy throwing frisbees in the woods; everyone else I encounter is doing the same thing I am...they "get" it.

 

[DavidSauls]

But a serious question- if they made me pay for DG does that mean others would have to pay to use the dog park? Would parents have to pay for their kids to use the playground?

You might also ask this question another way. When you're playing for free on the disc golf course, are the folks on the tennis courts playing for free? The softball teams on the ballfields? The birthday party in the pavillion?

My experience is that public parks often charge to use amenities, while allowing others to be used for free.

 

[Slider]

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-82140.html

"
*data below is from December 2012 meeting minutes
Stony Creek (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=5408) ~ 27 hole course in large Metropark. Expanded from 24 to 27 holes in 2012. Large and busy course.
Disc Golf Daily Pass ($2 wristband)
23,336 passes sold in 2012
21,257 passes sold in 2011

$45,685 2012 Daily Pass Revenue
$40,831 2011 Daily Pas Revenue

Disc Golf Annual Tags ($50 bag tag)
$3,110 in 2012
$4,350 in 2011

Disc Golf (Pay to Play) Daily and Annual Pass Totals
$ 48,795 in 2012
$ 45,181 in 2011


Kensington (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3414) ~ 27 hole course in large Metropark. Redesigned in 2009 to 27 holes. Also home to a 18 hole (Toboggan) course for the USADGC. Another large and busy course.

Disc Golf Daily Pass ($2 wristband)
29,761 passes sold in 2012
23,795 passes sold in 2011

$59,345 2012 Daily Pass Revenue
$47,807 2011 Daily Pas Revenue

Disc Golf Annual Tags ($50 bag tag)
$4,828 in 2012
$5,436 in 2011

Disc Golf (Pay to Play) Daily and Annual Pass Totals
$64,173 in 2012
$53,243 in 2011


Hudson Mills (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=448) ~ 2 large 24 hole courses at a large Metropark.

Disc Golf Daily Pass ($2 wristband)
17,039 passes sold in 2012
14,946 passes sold in 2011

$34,078 2012 Daily Pass Revenue
$29,892 2011 Daily Pas Revenue

Disc Golf Annual Tags ($50 bag tag)
$6,110 in 2012
$9,190 in 2011

Disc Golf (Pay to Play) Daily and Annual Pass Totals
$40,188 in 2012
$39,082 in 2011

Each course has benefitted from P2P with upgrades. Usage is up from previous years at each course. The only things that showed decreases were in the amount of annual bag tags sold at each course. The increased amount of daily passes sold at each park did make up for the decrease of tag sales though.
"

I think this shows that you can have a successful pay to play disc golf course. It isn't a huge amount but it is almost self-sustaining. In economics it makes sense, if there is a large demand then prices go up...that happens with discs in the summer time. We have a free 9 hole course that receives over 300 people a day and you see groups of 8 to 10 sometimes and it is hectic and the wait on every hole is like 15 minutes and you get people that just don't care about etiquette. If this was made a pay to play for 2 dollars, I think it would improve this course and not to mention people who think this is too much, try calculating how much these people that want freebies pay for beer and drugs a month. I see a lot of people compain about pay to play and act like they don't have money to pay for the game they love but they will spend hundreds a month on junk and drugs and alcohol.

 

[curveball4]

You guys bring up good points but there are 3 courses in my town & none of them are DG only, one in particular it's not unusual to have picnickers, kids running around, etc in some of the fairways. As for the tax dollar argument, 2 of the parks are city & 1 county. I live in the city so I pay taxes to both so yes, I do think my tax money should cover park use.
As for other amenities having to be paid for, there are certain pavilions, soccer, softball, & football fields that have to be rented at certain times. But if no one is using them, they are somewhat open to the public, except for maintenance times.
Again I think you guys have valid points & I'm not necessarily disagreeing or trying to start an argument. Just that by me playing disc golf I don't see that costing the city/county money. The areas would be mowed anyways & as I said before, we as the club do 99.9% of the maintenance/upkeep already. While pavilions need money for upkeep, lights, etc. & athletic fields are super expensive to keep in good shape & have a pretty hefty light bill for night games, the DG course mainly requires a little manual labor every now & again. I wouldn't be opposed to a small yearly fee to access the park assuming the parks people kicked some of it back into the course & non-DG'ers had to pay the same fee

 

[disc qualified]

if p2p courses help thin the herds of feral shirtless dudes rampaging our courses like a plague of locusts then i am all for it. yes, i am an elitist. grow the sport? how about we bonsai the sport and stunt its growth.

 

[Matt B.]

if p2p courses help thin the herds of feral shirtless dudes rampaging our courses like a plague of locusts then i am all for it. yes, i am an elitist. grow the sport? how about we bonsai the sport and stunt its growth.

"feral shirtless dudes rampaging our courses like a plague of locusts"

I enjoy this phrase greatly.

 

[Slider]

You guys bring up good points but there are 3 courses in my town & none of them are DG only, one in particular it's not unusual to have picnickers, kids running around, etc in some of the fairways. As for the tax dollar argument, 2 of the parks are city & 1 county. I live in the city so I pay taxes to both so yes, I do think my tax money should cover park use.
As for other amenities having to be paid for, there are certain pavilions, soccer, softball, & football fields that have to be rented at certain times. But if no one is using them, they are somewhat open to the public, except for maintenance times.
Again I think you guys have valid points & I'm not necessarily disagreeing or trying to start an argument. Just that by me playing disc golf I don't see that costing the city/county money. The areas would be mowed anyways & as I said before, we as the club do 99.9% of the maintenance/upkeep already. While pavilions need money for upkeep, lights, etc. & athletic fields are super expensive to keep in good shape & have a pretty hefty light bill for night games, the DG course mainly requires a little manual labor every now & again. I wouldn't be opposed to a small yearly fee to access the park assuming the parks people kicked some of it back into the course & non-DG'ers had to pay the same fee

From what I have seen these people that go and polay disc golf at this park definitly cause an additional labor to maintain it. There is garbages at most of the tee boxes and they are filled up daily. There isn't a daily refuse truck going in there and this is evidenced by the garbage that is around the cans. And they don't have a biker police going through there as often as they should, there are a lot of riff raff playing disc golf and fights seem to happen. Sometimes the biker police go through and give a few tickets for open containers. Adding a price to this park to pay to play isn't necessarily about additional costs, but made to curb things such as the over usage of this and if it was pay to play you would have someone there saying that you can't have more than 4 or 5 players on a card vs. 10...and that isn't a joke.

 

[Slider]

if p2p courses help thin the herds of feral shirtless dudes rampaging our courses like a plague of locusts then i am all for it. yes, i am an elitist. grow the sport? how about we bonsai the sport and stunt its growth.

I personally don't think it is elist. I think it does weed out the riff raff for sure...what is wrong with that? my guess is that most of the people on this site aren't riff raff (a guess). Who wants to play a great free course that you have to wait for groups of 10 who can't throw for crap for 15 plus minutes a hole? And the prices are still very very inexpensive!

I think making a course pay to play is done on a case by case basis. I think that small 9 hole course should be a pay to play because you see garbage everywhere, large groups and you see people fighting because someone is throwing on them.

 

[Nasty Nate]

the naivete of this post should be startling but isn't

are you aware of how public perception can lead to getting courses pulled?

"lowly disc golfer getting high on the course" is doing something illegal (in most places) and if a course gets a reputation as a smoker's haven the next step is pressure to have the course pulled.

i really don't care what your thoughts are in regards to the current state of american drug policy. marijuana is illegal in most places. period. condoning an illegal activity and dismissing it as harmless is selfish and shortsighted.

Can you give me one instance where a course was "pulled" because it was a "known smoker's haven"? What about all the empty beer cans that often litter disc golf courses? It is obvious that people drink on the course, which is illegal, yet courses don't get "pulled" because of it.

if p2p courses help thin the herds of feral shirtless dudes rampaging our courses like a plague of locusts then i am all for it. yes, i am an elitist. grow the sport? how about we bonsai the sport and stunt its growth.

What's the weather like up there in your ivory tower?

 

[curveball4]

From what I have seen these people that go and polay disc golf at this park definitly cause an additional labor to maintain it. There is garbages at most of the tee boxes and they are filled up daily. There isn't a daily refuse truck going in there and this is evidenced by the garbage that is around the cans. And they don't have a biker police going through there as often as they should, there are a lot of riff raff playing disc golf and fights seem to happen. Sometimes the biker police go through and give a few tickets for open containers. Adding a price to this park to pay to play isn't necessarily about additional costs, but made to curb things such as the over usage of this and if it was pay to play you would have someone there saying that you can't have more than 4 or 5 players on a card vs. 10...and that isn't a joke.

Well for the trash we as a club empty all the trash off the course. We get 2 or 3 people with trucks (which I am one of the truck owners) & we go through the course & replace the cans with empty bags & take the full bags to the dumpster on the other side of the park. The city never touches the trash on the disc golf course, never have, the club & a few individuals empty all the cans

 

[Slider]

Well for the trash we as a club empty all the trash off the course. We get 2 or 3 people with trucks (which I am one of the truck owners) & we go through the course & replace the cans with empty bags & take the full bags to the dumpster on the other side of the park. The city never touches the trash on the disc golf course, never have, the club & a few individuals empty all the cans

Now that sounds great! This 9 hole course was actually closed because of the problems the local people that live by the course/park see garbage all over and young and old people stoned or drunk throwing discs (not an exageration) and some of these groups do get large. A lot of the club members don't play the course because it shouldn't take 15 plus minutes to play a hole and trying to manage large youth can be challenging especially when they get in your face (not a joke either). I think making this small 9 hole course a pay to play wouldn't be a problem.

 

[disc qualified]

Can you give me one instance where a course was "pulled" because it was a "known smoker's haven"? What about all the empty beer cans that often litter disc golf courses? It is obvious that people drink on the course, which is illegal, yet courses don't get "pulled" because of it.

What's the weather like up there in your ivory tower?

your lack of seeing the big picture bleeds through most of your posts
are you 18 and ready to take on the world?



ivory tower has nothing to do with my dislike of rampaging herds of feral shirtless backwards ballcap dudes whooping and hollering and chucking one disc while throwing at their buddies and yelling "get in the hole" during every other throw


did i just describe you?

is that why you are so concerned with my comments?


or are you one of those oblivious pot smokers who doesn't care if he does it in front of families because, you know, "it's eventually going to be legal everywhere and they should just learn to deal with it. it grows naturally, man, it's not a big deal"