One leg drill, stupid question.

[scooby snack]

Not sure what you are saying but however forward hip rotation starts, it begins just before front foot plant. If one waited until all the weight was on the front foot before hip rotation started they wouldn't be able to rotate.

Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

 

[RowingBoats]

Not sure what you are saying but however forward hip rotation starts, it begins just before front foot plant. If one waited until all the weight was on the front foot before hip rotation started they wouldn't be able to rotate.

This is exactly why people seem to have to 'feel' this concept I think. If you have not felt it you can have a very wrong idea watching and emulating pros -- I know this because this is exactly what happened to me.

I 100% understand why people have said "intend" in this thread several times.

Yes, there may be 'rotation' occurring before your weight is shifted into the brace, but this is not the 'intentional' rotation that really puts the acceleration on. The timing difference is pretty absurdly small, but the feel is much different. If your mental model of the throw is intentionally rotating at the point you describe, just ditch that as an experiment and try a new model.

 

[RocHucker]

This is exactly why people seem to have to 'feel' this concept I think. If you have not felt it you can have a very wrong idea watching and emulating pros -- I know this because this is exactly what happened to me.
...If your mental model of the throw is intentionally rotating at the point you describe, just ditch that as an experiment and try a new model.

Any mental images that you'd suggest for those who haven't "felt it" yet? Throw everything you can think of at the wall and see if anything sticks. I know there's lots of good advice on these forums, but none of it has clicked for me when it comes to this bracing stuff. Any time I try to put weight into a closed front foot, I feel like i can't rotate without injuring my front knee, and i can't get power from it

 

[JuanA]

Any mental images that you'd suggest for those who haven't "felt it" yet? Throw everything you can think of at the wall and see if anything sticks. I know there's lots of good advice on these forums, but none of it has clicked for me when it comes to this bracing stuff. Any time I try to put weight into a closed front foot, I feel like i can't rotate without injuring my front knee, and i can't get power from it

This helped me. Now I find myself doing it with every sliding door I see.



*EDIT* I should have been clearer...it helped me because I would rotate on my right heel as I was pulling through.

 

[scooby snack]

Question about the brace:
When the brace leg juices the throw, is it a "bump" or a press and hold?
In other words, imagine that there's a pressure sensor under my brace foot. Should the pressure spike as I shift weight to it and then decrease sharply before the upper body comes through the throw, or does the pressure rise as I settle onto the front foot and stay high until I've completed my follow through? Or something else?

When I think about whipping my tennis forehand, the pressure is more of a bump in my lead foot. On my disc golf backhand, should I be going for the same bump and whip feeling as the tennis forehand, but the feeling is that I'm swinging lefty and hitting a ball that's slightly behind me (due to use of lead shoulder instead of trailing shoulder)? I know that the throw would probably correlate better to my tennis backhand, but I've never felt the ground up power quite as well on my tennis backhand.

I don't play tennis so I can't compare bracing for a tennis swing to a dg swing but I'll try to explain it.

I think the best way to learn it, is to take a stack of discs to an open field and throw from a standstill. You want to shift your weight from the back leg to the front, then brace against this shift.

When I was learning this, it clicked for me when I started emulating the pros and driving my back knee forward. That move helped me to really start feeling the brace.

 

[RoDeO]

This is exactly why people seem to have to 'feel' this concept I think. If you have not felt it you can have a very wrong idea watching and emulating pros -- I know this because this is exactly what happened to me.

I 100% understand why people have said "intend" in this thread several times.

Yes, there may be 'rotation' occurring before your weight is shifted into the brace, but this is not the 'intentional' rotation that really puts the acceleration on. The timing difference is pretty absurdly small, but the feel is much different. If your mental model of the throw is intentionally rotating at the point you describe, just ditch that as an experiment and try a new model.

We could be speaking of the same thing, just different ways of conceptualization. One doesn't really feel their hip turning from the rear leg into front foot plant. But it really is happening. And, again, we don't feel it so much, but there is a powerful kinetic chain that starts on that initial slight turn by the rear hip as it starts the rotation into and through foot plant. As the weight totally shifts and you can feel the pressure on the foot bracing, the torso also starts to unwind very powerfully. The hips are ahead of the torso in rotation just as the torso is ahead of the shoulders in rotation and lastly the arm gets whipped through like a bull whip ejecting the disc. It's that sequence of the rotation which starts in the rear leg and hip that is the engine so to speak, for the arm and disc to accelerate so forcefully.

 

[RowingBoats]

We could be speaking of the same thing, just different ways of conceptualization. One doesn't really feel their hip turning from the rear leg into front foot plant. But it really is happening. And, again, we don't feel it so much, but there is a powerful kinetic chain that starts on that initial slight turn by the rear hip as it starts the rotation into and through foot plant. As the weight totally shifts and you can feel the pressure on the foot bracing, the torso also starts to unwind very powerfully. The hips are ahead of the torso in rotation just as the torso is ahead of the shoulders in rotation and lastly the arm gets whipped through like a bull whip ejecting the disc. It's that sequence of the rotation which starts in the rear leg and hip that is the engine so to speak, for the arm and disc to accelerate so forcefully.

That is a way to throw a disc fairly far, I don't deny that. Again I am a layman, but did take this out to the field today to apply it to throwing discs. There is a big difference in how it feels, one of them seems to be:

If you open early, you are starting your acceleration before it truly matters, which idealy is in the power pocket or MUCH closer to it. You are pulling your arm from the backswing WAY to fast from the start doing it this way, there is no room or stored leverage for acceleration at the end. If you delay the acceleration until the brace, and have pulled the disc into the pocket, THEN explode, the acceleration makes a huge difference. It is also much easier to control and think about the movement as a whole, even on day one for me.

 

[RowingBoats]

Any mental images that you'd suggest for those who haven't "felt it" yet? Throw everything you can think of at the wall and see if anything sticks. I know there's lots of good advice on these forums, but none of it has clicked for me when it comes to this bracing stuff. Any time I try to put weight into a closed front foot, I feel like i can't rotate without injuring my front knee, and i can't get power from it

I will come back to this after I spend some real time in the field. Today, the most major thing internally that changed was how the overall rhythm is 'counted' in my head. Without the brace and actual transfer of balance to the front, my throws felt like they went full speed from the reachback position. Now there is this boooooooom-boooom-boom acceleration throughout the movement.

That probably isn't helpful and it will take me some time to digest this and have a more comfortable time executing it. Once I do, I might have more to say!

 

[RoDeO]

That is a way to throw a disc fairly far, I don't deny that. Again I am a layman, but did take this out to the field today to apply it to throwing discs. There is a big difference in how it feels, one of them seems to be:

If you open early, you are starting your acceleration before it truly matters, which idealy is in the power pocket or MUCH closer to it. You are pulling your arm from the backswing WAY to fast from the start doing it this way, there is no room or stored leverage for acceleration at the end. If you delay the acceleration until the brace, and have pulled the disc into the pocket, THEN explode, the acceleration makes a huge difference. It is also much easier to control and think about the movement as a whole, even on day one for me.

Yes, the upper body needs to wait for as long as possible. The lower half though needs to start unwinding powerfully before that acceleration of the arm out of the power pocket.

Again, we may be feeling and doung the same thing, just explaining it differently.

 

[RandyC]

First, the importance of hip power vs. Arm power. I will post another on my perception of the weight transfer point and the relationship of the hip, torso and shoulders.

https://youtu.be/poV82_XKzAQ

So in your example you are backwards and as you pull your arm in your lead shoulder pops up to your ear and your whole body crashes into your front hip/lead leg. Your body gets stuck as you are in the pocket and has nowhere else to go except around your lead leg. If you were to do HUBs landmower drill, you would stand in the way of its trajectory and run over your own leg.

Other way to think about is that if you were in the water. You would want to create linear energy and send the water past you targetward not spinning it or pulling it around you.

 

[Discette]

https://youtu.be/poV82_XKzAQ

Not sure what you are saying but however forward hip rotation starts, it begins just before front foot plant. If one waited until all the weight was on the front foot before hip rotation started they wouldn't be able to rotate.

Have you ever watched a "crush the can" video? It is difficult to crush the can if you open your hips before you plant or brace your weight. There needs to be a slight offset of the front foot. If you actually watch the crush the can video, all of this is explained and demonstrated without having to type out a thousand words.


In this Crush the Can Reboot video, it clearly states on the screen at 1:22 not to rotate hips before crushing the can. This means, don't rotate hips until the front foot, knee and leg are braced. You don't turn the hips and then crush the can, that might not even be possible.

Watch the video and note that the pros plant diagonally from back foot.

 

[azplaya25]

Have you ever watched a "crush the can" video? It is difficult to crush the can if you open your hips before you plant or brace your weight. There needs to be a slight offset of the front foot. If you actually watch the crush the can video, all of this is explained and demonstrated without having to type out a thousand words.


In this Crush the Can Reboot video, it clearly states on the screen at 1:22 not to rotate hips before crushing the can. This means, don't rotate hips until the front foot, knee and leg are braced. You don't turn the hips and then crush the can, that might not even be possible.

Watch the video and note that the pros plant diagonally from back foot.

love how I pick up little nuggets every time I watch these videos. He was discussing the alignment of your head and said keep your chin in line with your heel. I had missed that before, but just playing around with that idea, it's a really easy way to feel that dynamic balance and alignment you need as you come into the brace.

 

[azplaya25]

Also, wish the OP was receptive to advice, but for anyone else reading this thread - probably the biggest form breakthrough I've had in the past month was when I stopped trying to rotate my hips. If you just keep your stance closed and make a balanced, linear move, rotation just happens. You don't have to think about it, it's just the way your body works.

 

[RoDeO]

Have you ever watched a "crush the can" video? It is difficult to crush the can if you open your hips before you plant or brace your weight. There needs to be a slight offset of the front foot. If you actually watch the crush the can video, all of this is explained and demonstrated without having to type out a thousand words.


In this Crush the Can Reboot video, it clearly states on the screen at 1:22 not to rotate hips before crushing the can. This means, don't rotate hips until the front foot, knee and leg are braced. You don't turn the hips and then crush the can, that might not even be possible.

Watch the video and note that the pros plant diagonally from back foot.

The point I keep trying to make, and you can actually see it in the video with the pros at the end is that just before that rear heal crushes downwards and the weight shifts, watch what is happening to the rear foot and leg- they start turning inwards. The only way they can turn inwards is if the rear hip begins rotating. Thus, hip rotation is initiated by the rear leg just before weight shift. It isn't the other way where weight shift occurs (after the can is crushed) and then the hips begin to rotate. Initial rotation begins just before that monent. If you were to place a weight scale under where the front foot lands showing pressure created by the brace (true maximum weight shift) and freeze it at exactly that moment, the hips will have already rotated quite a bit. I keep saying this and it's falling on deaf ears but without the rear leg initiating some rotation to begin with, the lateral momentum has no ability to create the rotation on its own. Thus, it is not possible to create rotation if ones weight has fully shifted to the brace before rotation starts. There must be a transition phase between the shift weight where the rotation is initiated by the rear leg just before front leg contact and brace. The brace allows the rotation to be more snappy or pivot on a tighter radius.

 

[RowingBoats]

love how I pick up little nuggets every time I watch these videos. He was discussing the alignment of your head and said keep your chin in line with your heel. I had missed that before, but just playing around with that idea, it's a really easy way to feel that dynamic balance and alignment you need as you come into the brace.

This is how I feel also. I keep watching the same videos over and over and they keep making more and more sense in more and more ways. I think a big reason people get stuck, which has also been discussed, is that you really do have to 'open your mind'. Not in any mystical way, but in a very practical way. Allow the thought:

"I am likely doing this action radically incorrectly, and always will be."

This will at least give you the right paradigm for actual, conceptual manipulation of what you are even trying to do with these movements.

 

[RoDeO]

Also, wish the OP was receptive to advice, but for anyone else reading this thread - probably the biggest form breakthrough I've had in the past month was when I stopped trying to rotate my hips. If you just keep your stance closed and make a balanced, linear move, rotation just happens. You don't have to think about it, it's just the way your body works.

True. What I have found though is that when one really feels it they will feel the sequencing of the torque of their hips turn, then their torso and then that twisting force propelling the disc. If one isn't feeling that, they are using too much arm.

 

[RoDeO]

So in your example you are backwards and as you pull your arm in your lead shoulder pops up to your ear and your whole body crashes into your front hip/lead leg. Your body gets stuck as you are in the pocket and has nowhere else to go except around your lead leg. If you were to do HUBs landmower drill, you would stand in the way of its trajectory and run over your own leg.

Other way to think about is that if you were in the water. You would want to create linear energy and send the water past you targetward not spinning it or pulling it around you.

I obviously need to redo the video and do it with a disc as with a disc it looks totally different.

 

[RowingBoats]

The brace allows the rotation to be more snappy or pivot on a tighter radius.

If this were the case, you would see a constant rotation of the foot in well performed drives. This is subtle and honestly very hard to see without looking specifically at it but try it. Watch, over and over, frame by frame the brace foot and disc release. Without fail, on drives, you are going to see the release and follow-through initiate the heel rotation.

You cannot brace against rotational torque in a meaningful way. Try it. Stand up and don't allow any lateral movement at all with your weight. Spin and brace that torque. Then notice that when you try to force the brace feeling you are introducing lateral movement. Try to make that your primary intended direction of movement and your brace will get very easy to feel.

 

[azplaya25]

You cannot brace against rotational torque in a meaningful way. Try it. Stand up and don't allow any lateral movement at all with your weight. Spin and brace that torque. Then notice that when you try to force the brace feeling you are introducing lateral movement. Try to make that your primary intended direction of movement and your brace will get very easy to feel.

Exactly right. If you just perform a move that the human brain has been wired to perform for millions of years, your body will instinctively put you in the most efficient powerful positions. Shawn Clement talks about this in his video. Just stand there and pretend that you are throwing a spear at something. What does your body want to do? It wants to make a linear move, brace, then come through with the throw. If you pretend to throw a spear and your first move is to rotate your hips, it feels really awkward.

 

[RowingBoats]

Exactly right. If you just perform a move that the human brain has been wired to perform for millions of years, your body will instinctively put you in the most efficient powerful positions. Shawn Clement talks about this in his video. Just stand there and pretend that you are throwing a spear at something. What does your body want to do? It wants to make a linear move, brace, then come through with the throw. If you pretend to throw a spear and your first move is to rotate your hips, it feels really awkward.

I completely agree and this is part of what baffles me. If I do pick up a literal spear I would do that instinctively. What is it about a disc that made me have to claw my way out of strong-arming it as my first instinct? Then my second instinct was to rotate early to whip my arm out...then I finally remembered "Oh ya, I already know how to throw an object."

I think perhaps there is a subconscious bias due to the light-weight of the disc, and the fact that it is a circular rotating object itself. A bias that makes our first instinct rotational in our intentions. Weird stuff.