No, they are different. Perhaps athleticism translates better crossing over from one sport to another by a trained athlete but different sports require different skill sets and mechanics, timing, mentality, etc.
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One leg drill, stupid question.
- Thread starter RoDeO
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The kinematic sequence is essentially the same with all activities, the tool you are using or the task might be different and requires some adjustments but it does not change the way you are generating power. It´d be crazy if human body had a different sequence for every task.
So, my son was very good at pitching, the best around where we live, threw really hard and had the best breaking ball and changeup, but he had average bat speed, hit very few homeruns and was an average hitter. He sucks at hockey, was decent at basketball, is decent to good at disc golf, not very good at golf though, was average at soccer, and never played football but can throw it good. He is very athletic.
Point being that if it was true that those kinematic sequences are the same across sports, his fastball velocity should equate to easy 500-600+ feet backhand shots in disc golf. He is just around 400 feet now, been playing a year.
Truthfully, each motion in different sports requires different mechanics and skills. Just because you are ace in one means nothing on being able to be ace on the rest.
So, how good are you at tennis?
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Haven't played it about 30 years, I had a great one handed forehand, and I think my one handed backhand would be pretty good now.
Schwebby played tennis in college and won USDGC distance contest. Most every tennis player I've met in disc golf is pretty good at smashing discs.
timothy42b
Eagle Member
I am not so sure that tennis backhand is correct especially on the spin part - it seems in direct conflict with high speed video which shows the ball over the net before that wrist rotation occurs. Regardless though he does have a smooth swing and gets onto that forward leg.
But I would wonder about two things based on his video.
He wants the angle of wrist and racket to remain until release. Sounds reasonable, that's like lag in golf or throwing from the far side of the disc. But is it held deliberately with muscle, or naturally by the geometry of the motion? Same thing with the release - he implies it is a deliberate action rather than caused by the mechanics. Maybe it can be done either way - see Homer Kelley maybe.
Second thing, his angle is between forearm and racket, while ours is between forearm and disc rim, but we also bend the elbow. He doesn't (there is a method in ball golf that does, but they don't bend the wrist). There's a theoretical advantage to a straight arm swing, in that shoulder elbow and wrist are forced to be coplanar, and maybe disc golf beginners could benefit from starting that way?
But I would wonder about two things based on his video.
He wants the angle of wrist and racket to remain until release. Sounds reasonable, that's like lag in golf or throwing from the far side of the disc. But is it held deliberately with muscle, or naturally by the geometry of the motion? Same thing with the release - he implies it is a deliberate action rather than caused by the mechanics. Maybe it can be done either way - see Homer Kelley maybe.
Second thing, his angle is between forearm and racket, while ours is between forearm and disc rim, but we also bend the elbow. He doesn't (there is a method in ball golf that does, but they don't bend the wrist). There's a theoretical advantage to a straight arm swing, in that shoulder elbow and wrist are forced to be coplanar, and maybe disc golf beginners could benefit from starting that way?
Good pitching mechanics would translate to forehand throwing skills. Good batting technique translates to backhand power. Good outfielding skills translate to overhead throwing skills. Since your son was an average hitter, he should have an average backhand.
How well does your son throw side arm?
There are a couple of disc golfers in my area that are pitchers in college and both have wicked side arm speed and distance. We clocked them at over 70 mph.
How fast did your son pitch in his glory days?
He has about the same forehand max distance- around 400 feet. His fastball was 90mph back in high school.
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Forehand distance potential is definitely lower than backhand distance potential. So as I understand it, the ability to throw a 400ft forehand on reasonable golf lines is way above average. Maybe equivalent to a 450ft backhand? My numbers may be off, but it sounds like your son correlates to the "good pitching mechanics translate to good forehand mechanics" trend.
What folks on here are saying is that the linear drive -> brace -> rotate kinetic chain of a baseball swing translates to good backhand mechanics. Although the correlation isn't quite as direct since a righty backhand is in the opposite direction from a righty batter, and because the lever arm of the bat is way longer than the lever arm of the disc. Or maybe a disc golfer's forearm correlates to a batter's bat? I'm a bit fuzzy on that.
What folks on here are saying is that the linear drive -> brace -> rotate kinetic chain of a baseball swing translates to good backhand mechanics. Although the correlation isn't quite as direct since a righty backhand is in the opposite direction from a righty batter, and because the lever arm of the bat is way longer than the lever arm of the disc. Or maybe a disc golfer's forearm correlates to a batter's bat? I'm a bit fuzzy on that.
Discussion doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with you. I'm not a 400ft + thrower so I can't say definitively who's right and who's wrong, but it seems to me that if several people who are able to out-throw you by close to 100ft are saying that you have a misconception about the kinetic chain, then the most likely explanation is that you have a misconception about the kinetic chain?
I'm able to throw similar distances to you, and a lot of times what I'm doing *feels* good or right or similar to my understanding of other athletic motions in which I'm able to perform above average. And I've been trying to fine tune and train and hone my backhand for years but my improvements have been minimal and then stagnant. I'm fairly convinced that there is something fundamentally wrong with my throw, and I'm trying to keep an open mind to the advice from those who throw further than me, even if it contradicts what feels right to me.
His accuracy forehand is probably decent up to about 350 max. In high school he was the best around because of his excellent control not because of his velocity, even though it was top class. Shouldn't that translate into near perfect control in disc golf forehand?
Not necessarily. His muscle memory of creating power from the ground up should translate well to creating power in the disc golf forehand, but unless he was a crazy extreme submarine style pitcher, the arm slot is different for a forehand. Also, the disc has a lever arm that a baseball does not, making the wrist action and timing slightly different. And there is an element of controlling the angle of the disc that is crucial in disc golf, which I think does not have a prominent corollary in baseball. Also, a baseball pitcher throws directly at his target, whereas a disc golfer has to aim at an intermediate apex target from which the disc will glide or fade down to the true intended target. And timing of how each disc will turn over and fade, etc.
I'm not sure where my ceiling is distance wise. I've been playing just short of 3 months and I'm 47 years old. I doubt I'm gonna break past 450 though due to my age.
My complaint in this thread isn't about how I throw versus them, it's how they think they throw or think everyone, including pros who throw bit in reality they don't really throw that way. My complaint or beef with the weight shift and rotation timing is legitimate. Almost every pro begins hip rotation just before front foot contact and brace on distance drives off the tee. It may feel, in the mind, that hip rotation doesn't start until after weight shift, but their perception is wrong.
If we can teach what really happens, wouldn't that be more conducive to throwing farther? If one creates a drill to teach a skill, shouldnt it replicate the actual mechanics of the pros who are the best?
Not in the least. Grip, release, elbow and shoulder position can all be different from a baseball throw. If he threw primarily overhand or 3/4 as a pitcher then the sidearm disc golf shot will certainly be different. He likely has an aptitude for FH with a baseball background. The muscle groups for the mechanics should be the same, I'll let you folks argue the kinetic stuff.
I'm 59, played baseball into my 40's and continued to coach. Been playing a little over 4 years and am FH dominant since it came easier to me. I'm closing in on 400' and am accurate to 350+. My gains are all due to form improvement. Been hyzer flipping a Wave out to 400 in the field fairly consistently, it's pretty flippy and I haven't been brave enough to throw it in a round that counts yet.
Edit, I see Rochucker kinda beat me to it.
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My understanding is that a lot of the drills are exaggerations of a concept so that someone who is erring in the opposite direction can get a feel for what it's like to correct or over-correct, rather than staying in their default rut.
I do think that it would be helpful in general if people across all of these threads did a better job of defining whether each of their statements applies to the "feel" of the throw or the actual physical reality of the throw. But I'm hardly going to fault them for not putting in every extra keystroke that I'd like, considering that no one is paying them to offer the free advice that they're giving.
Regardless, I don't think the argument is that zero hip rotation happens before the weight shift. I think that the argument is that, although there may be some incidental hip turn before the brace, that hip turn is not powering the throw. Early hip turn, if present, sets up the brace, and then the brace turns the linear drive into the true rotational power. (that's my understanding of what's being preached)
I do think that it would be helpful in general if people across all of these threads did a better job of defining whether each of their statements applies to the "feel" of the throw or the actual physical reality of the throw. But I'm hardly going to fault them for not putting in every extra keystroke that I'd like, considering that no one is paying them to offer the free advice that they're giving.
Regardless, I don't think the argument is that zero hip rotation happens before the weight shift. I think that the argument is that, although there may be some incidental hip turn before the brace, that hip turn is not powering the throw. Early hip turn, if present, sets up the brace, and then the brace turns the linear drive into the true rotational power. (that's my understanding of what's being preached)
I think that the best disc golfer of our generation, Paul McBeth, played college baseball. I bet that that skillset played a big part in him being so good at disc golf. But he is known to be crazily dedicated off the course and out-practice the rest of his competition, so it's not like he just stepped off the baseball diamond and everything translated perfectly.
And back to the point about drills being exaggerations, I also think that Paul said in an AMA or something like that that it's easier to try to over-correct a form mistake and then dial back the correction, rather than to try to slowly correct.
And back to the point about drills being exaggerations, I also think that Paul said in an AMA or something like that that it's easier to try to over-correct a form mistake and then dial back the correction, rather than to try to slowly correct.
I think we are close in understanding. And, I guess if one conceptualized it different in their mind with the same result as another with a different conceptual then it don't really matter.
I conceptualize it different. I believe, similar to a baseball swing, the rear leg hip flexors and glutes initiate the strong hip rotation in the rear hip joint which in turn facilitate and initiate torso rotation. The brace leg is equally important because it stops the forward momentum and helps create the whip or snap at release. But, the front leg, by itself does not generate the hip rotation. Proof of this is actually in the one leg drill. If one truly just balances just on the front leg he can generate no hip rotation. Some will argue that it's because there is no forward momentum but once again we can show that if one uses the rear leg to just create forward momentum, but apply no initial rotation the front leg still will not be able to generate any hip rotation. I will post a video later showing this.
