One leg drill, stupid question.

[RoDeO]

That is only true if mechanics truly don't change. Also unless they are in poor/untrained shape to begin with, no one is getting substantially better conditioning through throwing discs such that the effect of conditioning is greater than the effect of improved mechanics. Well conditioned athletes focus on better mechanics. Going back to powerlifting: through greater efficiency of movement, someone who has less raw strength can beat someone with greater raw strength. This is why there is a focus on proper mechanics, alignment, and optimal leverages: the easiest/greatest gains come when you have a mechanical advantage.

Greater strength can compensate for poor technique, and great technique can compensate for poor strength. But what is easier on the body, with less injury risk, and less recovery needed, is improving technique.

Once you reach the limit of "beginner gains," fixing form issues will lead to further improvement.

I guess it's all perception. Take the brace leg for example- when one first begins they don't have the explosive power yet to really utilyze a strong leg brace. So, over time, as their velocity and distance increase they begin noticing their stronger leg brace or the need for it. So, they work on that leg brace maybe in perhaps thinking that is giving them extra distance. Sure, it might help but their throwing mechanics haven't really changed much, they just feel it better now because their velocity has increased.

I'm not sure what you mean by "beginner gains". What or where do you think my beginner gains will cease- what distance and why?

I think their is a lot of fundamental myths out there because we don't really understand or take the time to analyze things correctly.

 

[RoDeO]

Your linear speed might be slower now, but is now quicker in ACCELERATION - change of direction. Compacter shift is quicker.
Force = Mass x Acceleration (Not Speed)


What is sad to me is that you are focused on the all the minute differences and fail to see all the similarities that matter. Missing the forest for the trees. I learned how to make "the move" in disc golf from watching ball golf and baseball vids. I don't even play ball golf, never played 1 round! I used to pitch sidearm/submarine up to high school but couldn't bat or swing two arms - which I now understand why. I didn't have to learn anything other than grip/angle control to throw forehand 400'+. Backhand I had to totally learn from scratch and was absolutely terrible and maxing out less than 300' throwing a Boss as hard as possible and injuring myself. One Leg Drill was one of, if not the most instrumental drill I did to learn how to throw properly and rethink the throw. Lots of top throwers were also proficient with baseball, hockey, golf, skating, javelin, tennis.


This either makes no sense, or perfect sense going back to your high speed disc thread.
Top pros can huck an ultimate frisbee far without changing form.

Well, you can call it linear motion if you want but it's all in how fast the hips and torso can accelerate in a turning or twisting motion. That is what equates to greater distance.

 

[RoDeO]

I agree with you on straight line path being a myth. Forces are straight.

Rounding happens when the upper arm/shoulder joint collapse less than 90 degrees and the disc can not swing inward toward center chest and gets trapped behind the left shoulder rotation and has to swing around behind it.

Again this ^ is the path to the dark side, at least for 99.9% of all disc golfers, including myself. Maybe you are a unicorn.


And she says she is making a forward move and not trying to rotate! You can actually rotate faster when you're not trying to rotate. Maintaining tighter/centered upright balance/posture increases rotation. A quicker compacter shift between the feet increases rotation. Bringing the rear arm in increases rotation. Releasing the rear foot from the ground increases rotation. Bracing up on the front leg increases rotation.

Well, my timing may be off a bit still on some things but good to know I'm not rounding. A lot of times I can feel the disc on my abdomen to chest area when I'm pulling through.

Interesting that even Paige Pierce explains hip rotation of what she thinks she feels when in reality her hips are already turning and opening before she thinks they do. Funny how the mind interprets different than reality.

 

[sidewinder22]

Other than comic relief, does this video show anything useful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnJe31GiVm8
The way that his rear toes slip to point backwards, it looks like he's leveraging against them to try to turn forwards from the rear side. I wonder if we can see some things in "slip" videos that reveal forces that are otherwise tough to see in normal videos. In that vein, here's a video of Paul McBeth's brace foot slipping on a wet teepad during his weight shift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WUhXKsGn9k
It had a surprisingly small impact on his throw. I feel like I would pull a groin and throw 90 degrees to the right if that happened to me haha. I went back and watched the coverage for that round, and I estimate that his shot was very slightly high and left of where he intended, and maybe 85% of the distance. Is that because he's an athletic freak who was able to make microsecond adjustments, or does most of the power not come from that initial shift? In any case, it looked like he was trying to apply forward pressure in the toes/ball of his brace foot before he slipped.

Rear foot slip shows exactly what sevam1's "the move" talks about being on ice, and what I demonstrate in swivel chair drill.

Paul was able to brace up still, but he traveled more distance than he wanted so he lost some acceleration into the plant.

 

[sidewinder22]

Back on topic though, I have 2 questions as I continue to try to figure out this hip drive/rotation thing.

1) Imagine that there is a clock face on the teepad, with your target line being towards 12:00. As precisely as possible, what direction is your belt buckle facing when
a) the front leg brace alone starts to power hip rotation, and
b) the front leg STOPS powering hip rotation (and the hips presumably continue rotating forward from momentum alone... or is the hip rotation resisted at some point in order to whip the arm through the hit?).

2) If forward drive is super important, why don't the pros extend their back leg during the weight shift in order to get more drive? I believe that the correct answer is that their hip abduction is creating the drive, but why would leg extension not also be helpful?

Thanks in advance. I've never felt so dense when it comes to learning an athletic motion.

About 7:30 to 1, there's a fair amount of variance between players.

It is extending or springing and recoiling.

 

[sidewinder22]

The front brace is most important in stopping or slowing down the linear motion to throw against so you don't fall on your face.

It should stop you from falling on your butt or side, not your face. And give something to throw or leverage against. Front leg is more important than rear leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1utgTifso#t=1m13s

 

[sidewinder22]

Well, you can call it linear motion if you want but it's all in how fast the hips and torso can accelerate in a turning or twisting motion. That is what equates to greater distance.

 

[RoDeO]

It should stop you from falling on your butt or side, not your face. And give something to throw or leverage against. Front leg is more important than rear leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1utgTifso#t=1m13s

Well, if you are off balance like that guy then yeah.

 

[sidewinder22]

Well, if you are off balance like that guy then yeah.

That guy holds the distance record.

This guy ain't far behind.

 

[RoDeO]

That guy holds the distance record.

This guy ain't far behind.

Yep, Kevin fell on his face (figuratively). My point is the brace helps stop one from crashing out.

 

[RoDeO]

That guy holds the distance record.

This guy ain't far behind.

And as I remember he aced that hole on that shot. His brace didn't do it's main job of keepung him from crashing out. Even though his brace gave out he still got hip rotation and distance. Interesting.

 

[sidewinder22]

And as I remember he aced that hole on that shot. His brace didn't do it's main job of keepung him from crashing out. Even though his brace gave out he still got hip rotation and distance. Interesting.

Didn't slip until after release.

 

[SaROCaM]

And as I remember he aced that hole on that shot. His brace didn't do it's main job of keepung him from crashing out. Even though his brace gave out he still got hip rotation and distance. Interesting.

It is analysis like this, combined with things like not being able to throw an ultimate frisbee without major adjustments, that makes it clear you don't quite understand.

He was braced up through the release which is why he was able to throw the disc. The brace did its job up to that point. If he had no brace at all he would not have been able to throw.

 

[SaROCaM]

I'm not sure what you mean by "beginner gains". What or where do you think my beginner gains will cease- what distance and why?

Going back to the idea that "everything works." There are many ways to throw a disc 100 feet. You can do a lot of things "wrong" and throw a disc 100 feet. Same thing with 200 feet, 250 feet, 300 feet, 350 feet. Eventually you get to a point where you reach the limit of what you can do with a given technique.

Look at your own progression. You started around 200 feet, then 250, then 275, and so on. Relatively big jumps in relatively short amounts of time. Now you are at 375 where a little over a month ago you were at 370. The increases are getting smaller and taking longer to get. Maybe next month you will get to 380. Then maybe the month after that you will get to 383. Then two months after that you get to 385. Then six months later you get to 388. Then a year later you get to 390. Don't get caught up in these numbers; they are there to illustrate the concept. Unless your form is very close to optimal, if you keep the same form, you will get closer and closer to the limit of your current form. You can rotate faster and faster with your current form, but there will be diminishing returns. This is why people reach a plateau.

To progress in distance past that limit, you will have to make changes to your current form. Once you reach the limit of that new form, you will have to make changes again. With each iteration, you will get closer and closer to the "ideal" form (there will be individual differences, but the important parts will be the same.)

 

[RoDeO]

Going back to the idea that "everything works." There are many ways to throw a disc 100 feet. You can do a lot of things "wrong" and throw a disc 100 feet. Same thing with 200 feet, 250 feet, 300 feet, 350 feet. Eventually you get to a point where you reach the limit of what you can do with a given technique.

Look at your own progression. You started around 200 feet, then 250, then 275, and so on. Relatively big jumps in relatively short amounts of time. Now you are at 375 where a little over a month ago you were at 370. The increases are getting smaller and taking longer to get. Maybe next month you will get to 380. Then maybe the month after that you will get to 383. Then two months after that you get to 385. Then six months later you get to 388. Then a year later you get to 390. Don't get caught up in these numbers; they are there to illustrate the concept. Unless your form is very close to optimal, if you keep the same form, you will get closer and closer to the limit of your current form. You can rotate faster and faster with your current form, but there will be diminishing returns. This is why people reach a plateau.

To progress in distance past that limit, you will have to make changes to your current form. Once you reach the limit of that new form, you will have to make changes again. With each iteration, you will get closer and closer to the "ideal" form (there will be individual differences, but the important parts will be the same.)

I do believe we keep making fine adjustments as we progress. These work along with faster muscle firings. It goes back to what contributes more to distance gains- gaining the correct muscle groups or mechanics. I'm betting its more about the muscles firing more efficiently, faster and more powerfully.

 

[SaROCaM]

I do believe we keep making fine adjustments as we progress. These work along with faster muscle firings. It goes back to what contributes more to distance gains- gaining the correct muscle groups or mechanics. I'm betting its more about the muscles firing more efficiently, faster and more powerfully.

So in running from a Point A to a Point B, you would choose running faster in a curved line over running in a straight line?

If you were on a football field, in a race to run from goalpost to goalpost, you would choose to run faster around the perimeter of the field rather than straight up the middle?

 

[RoDeO]

So in running from a Point A to a Point B, you would choose running faster in a curved line over running in a straight line?

If you were on a football field, in a race to run from goalpost to goalpost, you would choose to run faster around the perimeter of the field rather than straight up the middle?

No. Im just goung off my own experience. I feel like my mechanics are decent for where I'm at right now. Sure, they are going to be tweaked as I progress but I have seen my biggest gains from actively working on my responsiveness. I look at the pros and every single one of them all share that one thing in common- they are very explosive in their release on distance drives. They rotate and explode into release very fast.

 

[SaROCaM]

Looking at pros throw in slow motion they all begin hip rotation before front foot contact and that hip turn remains constant as the weight shifts from rear to front leg.

Nope:



Linear first into rotation, just like she describes in her own words.

Also:

Biomechanical analysis of MLB pitchers throwing an average of 95 MPH showed the lower body sequence as: Loading, then Striding, then Rotation.

Notice how Rotation was not first in the sequence, and came after Striding.

 

[RoDeO]

Nope:



Linear first into rotation, just like she describes in her own words.

Also:

Biomechanical analysis of MLB pitchers throwing an average of 95 MPH showed the lower body sequence as: Loading, then Striding, then Rotation.

Notice how Rotation was not first in the sequence, and came after Striding.

That video is a standstill throw at lower power.

In baseball the rotation happens before front foot plant. That was my point.

 

[SaROCaM]

That video is a standstill throw at lower power.

Standstill is the basis of the throw. Many find they throw about 80% of their full distance from a standstill.

In baseball the rotation happens before front foot plant. That was my point.

Do you still think the first move is rotational in nature, or linear? (not purely, but in terms of intent?)