I disagree somewhat. I've studied this way back when my son was a pitcher. The rear leg initiates rotation while the brace leg facilitates and finishes the rotation. Hip and torso rotation speed is in direct proportion to release velocity. It's why new players appear to just be turning or rounding into release. They haven't yet developed the muscles or ability yet to powerfully and quickly rotate their hips and torso. After a good distance workout it's my legs that feel the most fatigued and sore. Strong and quick rotation initiation requires a strong rear leg and rotation facilitation after initiation requires a strong front leg to brace against. Good disc golfers usually have well defined and strong upper legs and glutes.
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One leg drill, stupid question.
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https://youtu.be/3-x6wM6xS9Q
Watch later on in the Super slo-mo where it's really slowed down and you can clearly see where Giancarlos rear hip starts to powerfully rotate just right before the front foot comes down into contact. Continue watching until the point where weight shift occurs from rear to front and you will notice that his hips are already halfway through the rotation. It's just after this moment that contact with the ball is made which equates to release point in disc golf.
Watch later on in the Super slo-mo where it's really slowed down and you can clearly see where Giancarlos rear hip starts to powerfully rotate just right before the front foot comes down into contact. Continue watching until the point where weight shift occurs from rear to front and you will notice that his hips are already halfway through the rotation. It's just after this moment that contact with the ball is made which equates to release point in disc golf.
Not sure where/how you are seeing that. When he begins his stride his belt buckle is pointing at 3:00. When he is dynamically on his front foot his belt buckle is pointing at ~2:40. When contact with the ball is made his belt buckle is pointing at 12:00. If what you say is true that the hips are halfway through rotation when weight shifts, then his belt buckle should be pointing at 1:30 when he is dynamically on his front leg.
Realize first the angle which the video is taken which is already at the 4:00 or so position. The belt during his windup, or stride counter rotates back to at at least the 4:00 position, maybe a tad more. Then as he begins his hip turn, which starts just before front foot contact it rotates into that 3:00 position. But, that is well before any real weight shift has occurred. The transition where 51% of his weight transfers to the front his belt is in the 2:00 position which is halfway of his total hip rotation, like I said. It's definitely not like some think where weight shift occurs before hip rotation. Hip rotation begins before weight shift.
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The science and what you see may be correct, although it doesn't necessarily teach you how to swing. I do believe you aren't strong arming it, but you have barrel/arm drag with the arm too far behind your body, or rounding/hugging yourself. If you keep trying to chase the science and amp up your hip speed you are going to arm drag more and more and possibly hurt your back or shoulder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrSbWfNMapE&t=4m
Look at PP hip rotation here, just making a forward lateral move.
The feel might not be the scientific real, but it is the correct intention.
The science and what you see may be correct, although it doesn't necessarily teach you how to swing. I do believe you aren't strong arming it, but you have barrel/arm drag with the arm too far behind your body, or rounding/hugging yourself. If you keep trying to chase the science and amp up your hip speed you are going to arm drag more and more and possibly hurt your back or shoulder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrSbWfNMapE&t=4m
Look at PP hip rotation here, just making a forward lateral move.
The feel might not be the scientific real, but it is the correct intention.
Im not sure about the rounding or hugging thing.
PP is not rotating her hips in that drill. She is just jumping side to side. So ?
I have a theory with distance progression in disc golf in which most distance comes with time after the right muscle groups are built and trained to fire rapidly. My son videoed me the first week I started and surprisingly, my mechanics look almost identical now as back then. The difference is that the video looks like it's in slow motion. I have even slowed down my run up/x-step substantially. Where you really notice is how fast the torso is turning. When I first started it was really slow- looked like I was just slowly turning. In fact, almost every single form analysis in the form threads, showing new players, shows that same slow rotation. For those longer threads that take place where they keep posting update videos after months and even years you can see the progression of their hip and torso rotation dramatically increase.
I have been playing for just under 3 months now. Today I got a throw out to a new distance of 375. Normally I have been hitting in the 300-325 range but today I worked on trying to whip it out faster at release giving it everything I got. As one increases their rotation velocity their brace also becomes more pronounced naturally. The brace strength is in direct relation to release velocity. A low power shot on a 250 foot hole doesn't require much arm speed velocity and as such the brace won't be as strong or pronounced. It's the same in other sports such as Baseball. They have to use a special clay and packing techniques on the mound to both push off from and land and brace against. My son, who was a pitcher would literally drill massive holes in some of the improperly built mounds where his front foot would land because of the extreme brace required due to the velocity (90 mph fastball). I've noticed the same thing in disc golf. As my velocity has increased so too has the size of the holes I'm boring over and over into the dirt where I throw.
I don't really worry about all these technical points of throwing because I'm of the belief that you just keep trying and your body and mind adjust and work to correct and move more efficiently and more powerfully. I usually throw about 2 hours a day just throwing for distance and control. Now, I think it's safe to say that if the only parts of my body getting fatigued or sore is my upper legs from all the pushing and bracing then I am gonna stick with what is working for me. In that regards, PP in that video actually has a great drill for me to increase my leg strength in pushing and bracing.
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PP rear knee does just what you described with Eagle indicating rotation.
Your theory and experience does not jive with my own experience or what I've witnessed over and over for over a decade. You might be a unicorn.
Do these new players have slow rotation because they aren't trying to rotate? Or could it be that lack of linear weightshift is causing their rotation to be slow, dragging?
You say you don't worry about all these technical points of throwing, yet you make it a point to worry about the technical rotation of the rear leg.
I also think you and I have a different definition of weightshift. You keep talking about a static moment, it's a dynamic process.
Their rotation is slow because they haven't built up and trained the right muscle groups to rotate faster. It takes time. The only aspect or point I'm making of the rear leg is that one cannot properly activate hip rotation without the rear leg. And, hip rotation starts on the back leg before the weight shifts to the front leg.
By "weightshift" I'm speaking of the moment when the majority of the weight of the body shifts from off the back leg to the front leg. Yes, it is dynamic. So is the hip rotation. Hip rotation starts before front foot contact and is halfway through its rotation at that moment when the majority of the body weight shifts to the brace leg.
In baseball pitchers the rotation is even more pronounced before front foot contact where most of the hip rotation happens before the front foot makes contact to brace against.
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Pelvis is moving linearly forward while turning back away with the shoulders.
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I disagree about the cause of slow rotation, although I agree it is a factor, but that same factor also causes the linear move to be slower and resulting rotation slower.
I agree that hip rotation technically starts before weightshift/plant(when there is actual weightshift) just like I said in Swivel Chair Drill. It's also more pronounced in pitching because they take a longer stride and the right hip or hip on the same side of the throwing arm is on the backside with the arm, so it has to start rotating earlier and open up the front side to allow the trailing arm to swing thru. In disc golf we don't swing the trailing arm, need to plant with the hips still closed to swing the lead shoulder/arm thru without the rear side getting in the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=23s
In the video you posted (I'm guessing that's you throwing) the thrower is hugging/rounding.
Her hips are rotating; one way to see it is to see the mini in her back pocket move in and out of view. The intent to shift linearly results in rotation.
I have done a decent amount of strength and power training including squats, deadlifts, power cleans, hang cleans, and assistance movements, with both max effort and dynamic effort. During this time I was focused on rotation in my disc golf throw like how you are now. I was also focused on maximum effort like how you described yourself ("giving it everything I got") and like you I also injured myself.
When I shifted to a linear weightshift into rotation model of throwing, I found myself throwing farther with less effort. No fatigue, no injuries.
Basically I've been down the road you're on. You can continue down that road, maybe it will work for you, maybe not. The only way to find out is keep going. One phrase I have heard in the strength community is "everything works, eventually." I believe and have found that to be true. But then the next part is "everything works until it doesn't." I also believe and have experienced that to be true.
So far what I have seen as far as science, pro athletes, and coaching leans toward the linear into rotational approach. I'm talking about things like the lower body sequencing of pro pitchers (average velocity of 95 MPH), outfielders throwing, batters swinging, golfers swinging, etc. If you find things (studies, clinics, lessons, etc.) to support a rotation-first approach, post away, I'd like to see that. What I have found that works for me and has scientific and professional athlete/coach support is linear weightshift into rotation.
My linear move is slower now than when I first started. Especially over the last week where I have worked on slowing my runup and x step, the linear motion is way slower. The hip and torso rotation have increased dramatically bomber the last couple of weeks. On my favorite course I play on there is a hole that is uphill at about 250 feet that I really struggled to even get close to off the tee. Since I have slowed down my runup (now basically a walkup) and instead focused on hip and torso rotation I can now easily throw it up on a hyzer angle and park it almost every time. I actually took your advice on that tee in walking more sideways like in your elephant drill and it has really helped out.
Each sport is in some ways the same and in some ways different. It's sad to me to see people try to compare golf swing mechanics to disc golf throw mechanics. They are similar in some respects but totally different where it matters. The way in which the hips rotate or clear is different for a golf swing versus a disc release. They are on two totally different planes and axis. Up to down is different than side to side. The way in which the hips rotate or clear is different mechanics for each. So is the footing, the step or stance, the backswing, the follow through, etc. Even the brace is different. It's also why being good with a golf swing for distance doesn't translate to being good with a disc release for distance. The body and muscle groups are doing different things with different timing events. Even in baseball, a slugger with powerful hip and torso rotation who can bomb 400+ feet home runs doesn't mean he can also throw 95mph off the mound. In fact, if we were to just watch the mid sections of people doing different sports actions it would be easy to tell them apart as they all do very different things in their mechanics and timing events. Even in ultimate frisbee the pull is different than in disc golf. I played ultimate frisbee a few weeks ago and I kept trying to throw the frisbee like a disc and it wasn't going anywhere until I started putting it out on more of an arc around the body and using less early torso rotation.
I guess it all depends on how one defines "rounding". I don't buy into the theory of a straight line of play pull and the science is actually proving that a pro disc golfers throw is anything but a straight through pull. For almost all, the disc comes in close to the body, even touching the body sometimes, before coming out on a rounding arc around their torso from there and then into a straight release.
Every disc golfer who wants to improve his distance or throw a max shot will throw a max effort shot. We see this all the time with the pros. Warming up and then putting max effort in is where velocity and distance gain is achieved. No one achieves great max distance without putting in lots of great max effort tries. Even when a pro throws a max effort shot you can tell from their body language and effort that they just put everything they had in that shot. In interviews they will even say they did max effort. Now, that said, when I practice for distance, not every shot is max effort. I work on things and then on certain shots I max out my effort. Max effort requires a lot of energy and also recuperation time.
One thing not to be forgotten is that because acquiring greater distance requires time and repetition that the perception is that a person will credit his greater distance due to better mechanics when in reality what really changed was his body became more conditioned and muscles fired more rapidly- he became more explosive due to conditioning. I've noticed this myself. There is this one hole I play that is like 245 feet and when I first started I had to have a perfect max effort throw to get it to the basket. I remember the first time I got it to the basket and I was so pumped. Now, that same basket (2 months later) requires a rather slow toned down little hyzer throw. I often way overthrow the hole now. It's hard to not overthrow it now. What changed? My mechanics still feel basically the same. The change was my body and muscle groups now fire more rapidly now. When I first started learning LHBH I would practice my motion without a disc over and over. Back then I couldn't hear my hand whipping through. Now, with very little effort, the rotation is so much quicker that it whips the hand through and I can hear a very audible "whooossh' as my arm and hand whip through into release. My beginner distance when I first started was around 200 feet on a max effort throw. Now, 200 feet is a big mistake throw where it worm burns or flips over too fast with the wrong disc for the wind condition. I remember reaching the 250 mark, the 275 mark, the 290 mark, the 300 mark, the 315 mark, the 325 mark, the 350 mark, and just today hitting the 375 mark. For each new distance I can remember the disc feeling different in the way it released and flew. As I gained distance I had to use different discs. I've tried a myriad of different things to gain new distances but in general not a lot has truly changed very much. The biggest change is how fast the hips and torso rotate. Torso rotation velocity is directly connected to arm speed and disc release velocity. When you watch a pro throw you can see how fast they rotate on max effort drives. It's very fast!
Watch how fast Paige Pierce rotates in this max drive-
https://youtu.be/aJMIZOMFVBI
It's literally blistering. Considering she is female along with her size she is probably the greatest and most powerful disc golfer on the planet. I'm not sure anyone will ever be able to consistantly compete with her due to her ability to absolutely smash drives in the open fairway. Her max effort ability also helps her to power down for more control on less than max effort shots where others are all maxing out with little control. I can guarantee you just from watching her throw that she didn't grow up without constantly maxing her effort on throws learning and gaining distance. If others want to get in the same league with her they better work on making their torso rotation quicker and more powerful.
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Your linear speed might be slower now, but is now quicker in ACCELERATION - change of direction. Compacter shift is quicker.
Force = Mass x Acceleration (Not Speed)
What is sad to me is that you are focused on the all the minute differences and fail to see all the similarities that matter. Missing the forest for the trees. I learned how to make "the move" in disc golf from watching ball golf and baseball vids. I don't even play ball golf, never played 1 round! I used to pitch sidearm/submarine up to high school but couldn't bat or swing two arms - which I now understand why. I didn't have to learn anything other than grip/angle control to throw forehand 400'+. Backhand I had to totally learn from scratch and was absolutely terrible and maxing out less than 300' throwing a Boss as hard as possible and injuring myself. One Leg Drill was one of, if not the most instrumental drill I did to learn how to throw properly and rethink the throw. Lots of top throwers were also proficient with baseball, hockey, golf, skating, javelin, tennis.
This either makes no sense, or perfect sense going back to your high speed disc thread.
Top pros can huck an ultimate frisbee far without changing form.
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I agree with you on straight line path being a myth. Forces are straight.
Rounding happens when the upper arm/shoulder joint collapse less than 90 degrees and the disc can not swing inward toward center chest and gets trapped behind the left shoulder rotation and has to swing around behind it.
Again this ^ is the path to the dark side, at least for 99.9% of all disc golfers, including myself. Maybe you are a unicorn.
And she says she is making a forward move and not trying to rotate! You can actually rotate faster when you're not trying to rotate. Maintaining tighter/centered upright balance/posture increases rotation. A quicker compacter shift between the feet increases rotation. Bringing the rear arm in increases rotation. Releasing the rear foot from the ground increases rotation. Bracing up on the front leg increases rotation.
Other than comic relief, does this video show anything useful?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnJe31GiVm8
The way that his rear toes slip to point backwards, it looks like he's leveraging against them to try to turn forwards from the rear side. I wonder if we can see some things in "slip" videos that reveal forces that are otherwise tough to see in normal videos. In that vein, here's a video of Paul McBeth's brace foot slipping on a wet teepad during his weight shift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WUhXKsGn9k
It had a surprisingly small impact on his throw. I feel like I would pull a groin and throw 90 degrees to the right if that happened to me haha. I went back and watched the coverage for that round, and I estimate that his shot was very slightly high and left of where he intended, and maybe 85% of the distance. Is that because he's an athletic freak who was able to make microsecond adjustments, or does most of the power not come from that initial shift? In any case, it looked like he was trying to apply forward pressure in the toes/ball of his brace foot before he slipped.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnJe31GiVm8
The way that his rear toes slip to point backwards, it looks like he's leveraging against them to try to turn forwards from the rear side. I wonder if we can see some things in "slip" videos that reveal forces that are otherwise tough to see in normal videos. In that vein, here's a video of Paul McBeth's brace foot slipping on a wet teepad during his weight shift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WUhXKsGn9k
It had a surprisingly small impact on his throw. I feel like I would pull a groin and throw 90 degrees to the right if that happened to me haha. I went back and watched the coverage for that round, and I estimate that his shot was very slightly high and left of where he intended, and maybe 85% of the distance. Is that because he's an athletic freak who was able to make microsecond adjustments, or does most of the power not come from that initial shift? In any case, it looked like he was trying to apply forward pressure in the toes/ball of his brace foot before he slipped.
Back on topic though, I have 2 questions as I continue to try to figure out this hip drive/rotation thing.
1) Imagine that there is a clock face on the teepad, with your target line being towards 12:00. As precisely as possible, what direction is your belt buckle facing when
a) the front leg brace alone starts to power hip rotation, and
b) the front leg STOPS powering hip rotation (and the hips presumably continue rotating forward from momentum alone... or is the hip rotation resisted at some point in order to whip the arm through the hit?).
2) If forward drive is super important, why don't the pros extend their back leg during the weight shift in order to get more drive? I believe that the correct answer is that their hip abduction is creating the drive, but why would leg extension not also be helpful?
Thanks in advance. I've never felt so dense when it comes to learning an athletic motion.
1) Imagine that there is a clock face on the teepad, with your target line being towards 12:00. As precisely as possible, what direction is your belt buckle facing when
a) the front leg brace alone starts to power hip rotation, and
b) the front leg STOPS powering hip rotation (and the hips presumably continue rotating forward from momentum alone... or is the hip rotation resisted at some point in order to whip the arm through the hit?).
2) If forward drive is super important, why don't the pros extend their back leg during the weight shift in order to get more drive? I believe that the correct answer is that their hip abduction is creating the drive, but why would leg extension not also be helpful?
Thanks in advance. I've never felt so dense when it comes to learning an athletic motion.
NoseDownKing
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2)
The rear leg drives the body/mass forward before the front leg has touched the ground. Pushing off the rear leg after the front leg has touched the ground means, that you haven't shifted your mass onto your front leg. And when Force = mass × acceleration, having all that mass on the front leg is crucial for power.
You can amp up the clearing of the hip by extending your front leg during the swing. You have to do it smoothly though. Extending the front leg as hard as possible aka Tiger Woods leg snap will lead to injury. It has some potential for more power though.
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That is only true if mechanics truly don't change. Also unless they are in poor/untrained shape to begin with, no one is getting substantially better conditioning through throwing discs such that the effect of conditioning is greater than the effect of improved mechanics. Well conditioned athletes focus on better mechanics. Going back to powerlifting: through greater efficiency of movement, someone who has less raw strength can beat someone with greater raw strength. This is why there is a focus on proper mechanics, alignment, and optimal leverages: the easiest/greatest gains come when you have a mechanical advantage.
Greater strength can compensate for poor technique, and great technique can compensate for poor strength. But what is easier on the body, with less injury risk, and less recovery needed, is improving technique.
Once you reach the limit of "beginner gains," fixing form issues will lead to further improvement.
1a- This can be anywhere between 1:00-3:00 for LHBH and 11:00-9:00 for RHBH depending on the player. This is an area of debate as it is hard to agree upon the moment when the weight shift occurs to the brace leg. Looking at pros throw in slow motion they all begin hip rotation before front foot contact and that hip turn remains constant as the weight shifts from rear to front leg. The front brace is most important in stopping or slowing down the linear motion to throw against so you don't fall on your face.
1b- this again is different from player to player but generally it's something less than 12:00. Generally it's roughly between the 10-11:00 for RHBH.
