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Hey, nothing is ever perfect. I think the info comes across very well without needing an exact example anyway. Like you said, if someone needs a deeper dive into something specific they can follow the links to all the great Seabas content.
I tried to get gravity working in my favor more today and also kick the horse stance; I wasn't confident enough in my progress to reintroduce the x step.
I think I can see those improvements materializing in my throw; it's apparent that I need to lead more with my butt to keep from falling forward though. https://youtu.be/_NNCDF8C_S4
Like you mentioned, there's definitely a feeling of "this can't be right" as I lunge forward with my butt. It seems like that movement will force me to transition off my back foot better if I can get it going.
It looks like you are trying to drive too late after you complete the backswing, instead of during the backswing. You are basically shifted all the way back and turned all the way back together, instead of there being a counter motion shifting forward while turning back. https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543
I'm still getting stuck on that back foot and swinging my upper body both back and forward too early. I think they're all 3 kind of a combo timing issue that I'm actively working on.
I also feel that back foot is turned too far from target(not an issue when I do standstills), and that's making it too easy to turn back early. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Which drills would be best for feeling the proper timing out?
I see the same issue SW pointed out above & still mostly in horse stance. Same pattern in standstills and xstep.
I kinda want to get you to feel the difference from horse stance and the wave/circular part of the move.
If the Pratt drill isn't converting, I might recommend taking the "reciprocating dingle arm" into a full windmill throw. You should feel like your weight is "sweeping" in more under you into the plant off the rear leg. It's a little easier to find with the circular motion. Notice that most top pros are basically throwing in this pattern despite superficial differences. They just turn it into more of a wave than a full circle.
To help with counter-rotation while shifting forward, maybe Loading the Bow or Door Frame Drill?
Yesterday I tried delaying my backswing start until after the cross step while intentionally dropping into the plant as much as possible. The throws felt strange, and it was too windy to tell get any flight feedback. https://youtu.be/-al_uN8zWFg
Is this a good time to mention that I actually am a horse?
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I'll try the windmill some more. What should I focus on during it? Bending and extending my leg, driving my hip right, getting the weight off the left leg, etc?
Is this a good time to mention that I actually am a horse?
...
I'll try the windmill some more. What should I focus on during it? Bending and extending my leg, driving my hip right, getting the weight off the left leg, etc?
I'd recommend you focus on very little. Just get used to feeling a big circular motion heading into the throw. This is part of defeating the flat & straight swing plane. I'm seeing what happens if we try to give you a "macromove" to hang feels and ideas onto.
If you do focus on anything, your rear leg should feel more like it's compressing in the "backswing" and "dropping" to shift your weight. That's why guys like Eagle end up with the rear leg looking like this heading out of the backswing. It doesn't look very "circular" at first glance, but the windmill throw can help you get the feeling for how your weight collects and sweeps more naturally forward.
IMHO - try not to focus on "driving" the hips or "pushing" too much with the legs. Usually that leads to shoving, effortful motions, and that seems to happen especially in the rear leg because people are literally trying to "drive" for power (including me, and it's a nasty habit). They feel strong to many people - including me with my weightlifting background. Don't do that. The idea is to get things in sequence and your body in a flow and postures that unfurl more effortlessly for power. You can add bigger shifts and effort on top of that once you get it but usually doing it in the opposite order just backfires.
I'll be the first to tell you IMO this is one of the hardest parts to beat and I am still working on getting the best move myself. But the circular/wave-like part is fundamental in any case.
Ok, I've been doing this while rewatching the loopghost backhand 101 series.
This combination makes me think that I need to keep my left hip back towards the target for as long as I possibly can and forget about getting my right hip forward because it'll do that on it's own.
As far as the windmill, I think I wasn't allowing for the downswing enough to force an upswing... just brainstorming.
Ok, I've been doing this while rewatching the loopghost backhand 101 series.
This combination makes me think that I need to keep my left hip back towards the target for as long as I possibly can and forget about getting my right hip forward because it'll do that on it's own.
As far as the windmill, I think I wasn't allowing for the downswing enough to force an upswing... just brainstorming.
-Re: hips maybe but hard to tell based on the words. Do & show the windmill throw. Sequence language can get confusing & get you confused without visuals. Remember I'm trying to deceive your body into getting out of the horsestance and executing a wave-like throw. It's possible focus too much on the hips themselves and miss the context.
-Caution you might not want to use the word "upswing" for one-arm disc golf swing - you need to swing "forward" even though you can pick up a lot of it from golf. "Backswing" and "forward swing" help (can you tell I've been on a long journey here? lol)
I was meaning the downswing like when you drop your weight onto the heel and the upswing as the extension of the plant leg. I'm not sure what the words are for those.
I only threw about 5 standstills and 5 runup windmill throws because they made me very nauseous when I actually used a disc. https://youtu.be/uevDLnSvGmE https://youtu.be/t4Pbcj2u2Jw
Ok, I've been doing this while rewatching the loopghost backhand 101 series.
This combination makes me think that I need to keep my left hip back towards the target for as long as I possibly can and forget about getting my right hip forward because it'll do that on it's own.
As far as the windmill, I think I wasn't allowing for the downswing enough to force an upswing... just brainstorming.
This seemed to make things worse. I don't think I'll continue with that concept.
Would it help with the horse stance if I push off either to the right or vertically with my left foot going into the plant? I usually just let it transfer me back to the right foot without any effort.
Ok, I won't worry too much about the language right now. I'll tend to just refer to "backswing" to what happens as you swing back, and "swing" as what happens as you swing forward.
Nausea will go away when your head is better balanced like the Pratt drill. Part of the problem is that when you swing to actually release, you're reverting to horse stance and pirouetting, which is making you dizzy. So not saying you need to windmill all day every day, but sometimes you need to do something more extreme to break habits. Let me try to convince you to give it a couple more tries since you almost got the part we're looking for.
You actually did what we're looking for when you swing forward in the practice standstill here. Your rear leg/foot/knee are dropping in to help collect your weight into the plant step. https://youtu.be/uevDLnSvGmE?t=2
But then when you, actually threw, compare what you did - you immediately reverted back to your horse stance. I think you're trying to keep yourself in balance/muscling to power up.
Look at the guy on the left (practice swing) - he has his head/eyes with the disc and weight collecting forward dropping off the rear side. The guy on the right is muscling up off the rear leg and looking for the target.
Some of it is how your legs and posture are set up.
-Let's get your feet more neutral when you setup. Important in all types of thows. Should be a similar position to standing comfortably relaxed. Some of us are more pigeon-toed, duck-footed, or in between.
-Front hip's open early. Keep your butt more toward the target and let the action of the plant leg drive the swing forward. Look how long SW remains with his butt toward the target as he shifts - Hershyzer and buttwipe drills.
I'll also defer to SW at any point if he thinks you should tackle a different cause first. E.g., we might want to work on dem legs and posture next. But I think there's value in this windmill
Ok, I did some more field work today because it's supposed to storm for the next few days.
I tried to focus on delaying the arm swing(Seabas advice) and getting my hip out to the right of my torso like during the plant in the picture where you gave me a green check mark (Brychanus). https://youtu.be/YCXS1BUHPoY
Then I tried delaying the arm while getting more height delta from backswing to forward swing. https://youtu.be/jO8os45Z7D4
Next I thought I might try to beat the horse stance by pushing off with my left foot into my plant. https://youtu.be/x8OEmu0IPjI
And finally, I ended by seeing what happened if I tried to throw it as hard as possible. 422' is a new record for me, and it looked a bit less horsey. https://youtu.be/IjU-pdB84GA
I randomly picked 1 out of 10-20 throws for all of these except max distance. I'm pretty tired .
Ok, I did some more field work today because it's supposed to storm for the next few days.
I tried to focus on delaying the arm swing(Seabas advice) and getting my hip out to the right of my torso like during the plant in the picture where you gave me a green check mark (Brychanus). https://youtu.be/YCXS1BUHPoY
Then I tried delaying the arm while getting more height delta from backswing to forward swing. https://youtu.be/jO8os45Z7D4
Next I thought I might try to beat the horse stance by pushing off with my left foot into my plant. https://youtu.be/x8OEmu0IPjI
And finally, I ended by seeing what happened if I tried to throw it as hard as possible. 422' is a new record for me, and it looked a bit less horsey. https://youtu.be/IjU-pdB84GA
I randomly picked 1 out of 10-20 throws for all of these except max distance. I'm pretty tired .
Be cautious about "pushing" on the rear leg (been there, done that). It should feel a little more like you are swinging the weight of your arm against the rear leg as it's resisting the ground, and you should "drop" more effortlessly into the plant like that practice windmill motion where I gave ya the checkmark. That's what this all-time great javeliner Jan Zelezny is doing here, you just want to learn it for backhand:
That rear leg is definitely doing some work but it's less effort than a push - just the minimum effort necessary to resist falling down and help momentum land in the plant.
But you got the first part - get your weight forward into the plant. So that's part of the magic.
While you're avoiding the storm, might recommend you focus more on this:
It looks like you are trying to drive too late after you complete the backswing, instead of during the backswing. You are basically shifted all the way back and turned all the way back together, instead of there being a counter motion shifting forward while turning back. https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543
Specifically, you might want to practice getting shifted with gravity with the door frame drill. You want to practice holding the frame around belly button height and letting your body drop targetward down into the plant. You should feel the "crush" into your heel, almost like falling backwards. Right now notice how you are mostly keeping your body weight high and flat relative to the ground. Part of what SW said is baked into the door frame drill because if you hold onto while dropping into the plant, you learn the counterrotation for free! Recommend you do and post this because it's easy to suck at it. I'm really glad I spent a couple weeks learning to do it more optimally and it still helps me fix ****:
Look how SW is "falling" horizontally AND down into the plant while he swings back. That rear leg isn't pushing so much as just making sure he doesn't collapse into the ground shifting forward. He gets a lot of the power from gravity just by falling.
I also think you should keep doing that windmill motion/dingle arm and feel your weight collect forward ahead of the swing. You should feel leverage in the rear leg but you want to get into a spot where the shift feels more like a drop than a push into the plant. Door frame drill helps that too.
I think I'm starting to understand this a bit more. I was thinking of the drop more as a vertical up to down, but is it actually more like a seesaw with the right side going down then back up after the plant?
The big idea is learning to fall and rise in the swing cycle in a tilted axis.
I have never found it to be a waste of time to work on standstills. The tricky part is usually moving what you learn in the standstill over to the x-step as you add momentum.
It seems harder to keep from spinning over the front leg a little more with a run up when doing this even though I'm focusing on shifting from behind. Should the right foot be further out the more momentum I'm planting with? Standstill->one step->x step.
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