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RHBH 300 Ft Max
- Thread starter DWhitt
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2008
- Messages
- 22,046
Gravity drives things down. It should be like walking or swimming or hammer toss. Balance/counter balance is the number 1 rule.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134167
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134167
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136487
I'm still floundering on this, so I just tried whatever I could think to change out at the field.
Here are a few:
Hop instead of stride https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGr-8OIHsuQ
This just looks like my regular throw with a hop
More gravity attempt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAj_4kePU1w
Not good. I definitely took my upper body way over the top
End leaning with hip towards target and head away from target https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rGLgWJkD5g
The left leg looks miles better but no power
Notes:
It seems like I need to keep my upper body away from target more... Falling over the top feels like added gravity force, but obviously it doesn't actually add any weight.
How is it possible to lead with left butt cheek and keep from locking my left knee(stiff rear leg)?
Here are a few:
Hop instead of stride https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGr-8OIHsuQ
This just looks like my regular throw with a hop
More gravity attempt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAj_4kePU1w
Not good. I definitely took my upper body way over the top
End leaning with hip towards target and head away from target https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rGLgWJkD5g
The left leg looks miles better but no power
Notes:
It seems like I need to keep my upper body away from target more... Falling over the top feels like added gravity force, but obviously it doesn't actually add any weight.
How is it possible to lead with left butt cheek and keep from locking my left knee(stiff rear leg)?
Is this an indication that I'm turning too far in my backswing?
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
;
Yeah pretty much. Whatever acceleration you're getting is mostly still just venting out by tipping and swinging with too much effort. I see what SW sees here again. Compare it to his Ride the Bull. Also notice how far back your center of gravity is behind your x-step - so it's acting like a brake rather than allowing you to accelerate with gravity:
IMO You should be getting into the 400s feeling coordinated, loose, and fast, not muscled. You get more out of more effort the better your chain is, not the other way around.
It is a good question and it has been one of my hardest form battles. By changing how you coil into the rear hip & counterrotate through the upper body as you head into the shift - rather than tip. But that requires you to fundamenally change how you balance when you move. Buttwipe drill, Hershyzer drill, ride the bull, double dragon, similar moves. I have a couple more "big picture" tips since I'm somewhat farther along in that battle than you.
We talked about "weightlifter posture" and its related moves. It's really bad news for DG, dude. It's not just about one part of your body as much as how you move overall. Even if you don't change all of your exercise habits (and you might need to if you really want to learn it), you need to blow that posture up and replace it for DG. And like SW has pointed out it can take weeks and months if you've never done it. You are literally trying to learn a brand new movement pattern. Are there shortcuts? Probably not. If there are, I've never seen them in the wild. As lifters, you and I started like this when learning to swing:
But you and I don't have any of the learning advantages a baby has. And we have a ton of weightlifter muscle memory.
Double dragon, swivel stairs, Pratt drill, and the other recent SW tips work to cure "weightlifter posture". It will take time. It won't make your throw better in one session. You will probably do the drills wrong at first & should get them critiqued. They will make your swing worse before it they make it better. And then you will throw 400+ with dramatically less effort and wear & tear.
I also have a move to share that I tried last night and really liked as an "lifter-breaking" exercise & because it exaggerates certain parts of the shift. And how to compress, shift and drop rather than extend off the rear leg. Specifically, for me it helped exaggerate compression into the rear leg coiling back, and shifting by dropping and decompressing in powerful posture rather than extending & tipping. Maybe it's premature, and for the swing you want to think more smooth than "explosive" (depending on what that means).
Can you do it? Do you feel like you get coiled and compressed like a spring in the rear leg, then just drift and drop as a unit into the "plant"? Or are you pushingoff the rear leg to shift and muscling somewhere? Weck is not - the rear leg appears to extend, but it's not what's driving the shift. I'm checking some others out to see what's promising.
You'll start to understand the connection between Weck and Wiggins and a running back juking laterally SO fast & easily over time:
I have done resistance training like this with cables in the past! Not intentionally, but just by following the deepest stretch/tension.
So the idea is if I create more tension on the forward plane then my legs can flow a bit more naturally without lateral balance issues or jamming the hips up?
So the idea is if I create more tension on the forward plane then my legs can flow a bit more naturally without lateral balance issues or jamming the hips up?
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Yeah - people should do what they love. I love lifting. But I love disc golf more, and replacing most of my lifting with resistance bands and "following the stretch" and relaxing into it is a good general plan. It turned out to be necessary for me.
Moves that get you flowing and dropping and shifting as easily and quickly as possible.
The more of your body you recruit into the stretch and flow, the better the chances of improving the swing (I think).
SW had me run sideways 100 yards x-stepping with the "booty preset" was another big overall body changer for me.
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Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Sorry, need to say one more thing.
Pay really close attention to how Weck compares the cable-pulley like "lumber jack" move at the beginning. I used to do a lot of those. They're good for the oblique slings and front leg resistance, but as Weck talks a bit about, not so good for the rear leg compression, shift and drop. That traditional lumberjack is more like "spinning out" - bad news for DG.
The one he recommends with the brace into the rear leg (for me) dramatically exaggerates how much more fully body power you can get and how much faster you can shift after getting very compressed against the ground. Doing it against resistance bands or with a bit of weight works too. Don't need/avoid too much weight for that one. You principally want to fell how your own body can stretch and load and leverage you into the rear side before shifting forward.
Pay really close attention to how Weck compares the cable-pulley like "lumber jack" move at the beginning. I used to do a lot of those. They're good for the oblique slings and front leg resistance, but as Weck talks a bit about, not so good for the rear leg compression, shift and drop. That traditional lumberjack is more like "spinning out" - bad news for DG.
The one he recommends with the brace into the rear leg (for me) dramatically exaggerates how much more fully body power you can get and how much faster you can shift after getting very compressed against the ground. Doing it against resistance bands or with a bit of weight works too. Don't need/avoid too much weight for that one. You principally want to fell how your own body can stretch and load and leverage you into the rear side before shifting forward.
There's a lot of research to suggest that the greatest growth occurs when the muscle is stretched to its maximum length! A lot of lifters erroneously focus on maximum contraction.
Anyway, I hope to attempt this movement for myself and get some video this afternoon. We'll see if weather allows!
I think that was a positive change, and I'm also more sore than usual. It didn't help me with my present issues though.
I was doing more research and experimenting with shadow swings/body positioning this morning. I've noticed that my heel crush is muuuuuuuch more impactful if I let my hips rotate instead of trying to hold them open through the full plant. Is this an obvious bone-headed mistake I've been making or is it more complex than that?
Additionally, it seems to be moving my rear leg naturally where it should be.
I was doing more research and experimenting with shadow swings/body positioning this morning. I've noticed that my heel crush is muuuuuuuch more impactful if I let my hips rotate instead of trying to hold them open through the full plant. Is this an obvious bone-headed mistake I've been making or is it more complex than that?
Additionally, it seems to be moving my rear leg naturally where it should be.
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To further explain, I have been allowing my right leg to bend a fair amount before stopping my fall/planting in hopes to increase my gravity forces.
Driving my heel into the ground seems to be giving me much quicker downward force with an almost instantaneous stop.
Maybe most accurate would be that I'm loading my weight over my plant leg but resisting it with my calf muscle then suddenly releasing?
Driving my heel into the ground seems to be giving me much quicker downward force with an almost instantaneous stop.
Maybe most accurate would be that I'm loading my weight over my plant leg but resisting it with my calf muscle then suddenly releasing?
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I tried this with a couple of putters in my neighborhood. It felt pretty good, but then I altered it slightly by pushing my left hip the maximum amount then driving my right hip and knee back as fast as possible. I got my emac judge out 300 feet with a standstill, so hopefully I'm onto something.
Brychanus
* Ace Member *
Sorry, which one? Ride the bull or that Weck move or something else?
Easier to tell about the last few posts with video and it might depend on what you mean by "driving my heel into the ground," but it kinda sounds like you might be intentionally bending and then "thrusting" or pushing or stomping rather than crushing with the plant leg. You're possibly still compensating for horse stance & tipping unless that changed completely in a day ;-)
Plant leg action should be a drop of your mass stacked correctly on it without tipping. A lot of people seem to get confused about this (and I was too). Some players do end up throwing with more leg bend (like Kuoksa), others with less (like Heimburg, Feldberg). I would worry less about the amount of knee bend but also not try to manipulate it too much and instead learn the fundamental mechanic of the plant leg (it's really both legs, but the plant takes the brunt of the force). I'll explain why.
In general, letting your legs move more naturally like walking or running is the right idea. And like walking, or running, that leg should be swinging in to catch your momentum. It's like a running back changing direction. There shouldn't be a ton of intentional extension before absorbing your weight dropping on the leg - that's usually a sign you're out of balance or reaching to "brake" the momentum, etc. Instead you want to drop and transfer the force of the momentum hitting the ground. Maybe that seems like a subtle difference, but it's a huge one.
It is definitely also possible for your legs to get too lazy/limp and not resist hard enough. My legs were not very athletic or strong learning this stuff, but I think it was still better to learn to hop + drop into the crush and "resist collapse" to lead the swing. You want that leg to learn to swing in naturally like a reflect and resist your momentum, which is mechanically the fastest way to transmit forces up the chain through the front hip.
Hershyzer drills helped me find & apply the difference when "shifting from behind" and planting closed to target. Also in fighting horse stance getting off the rear leg.
To try and improve your confidence in terms of plant leg mechanics, I spent a lot of time on this on my plant side mechanics in one leg throws. The only times I was getting ~300' with Comets or beat Envys at minimum effort on one leg was when I would hop and drop resisting HARD against the ground to swing. That might be about as much as I can get out of my body on one leg - but the important point was that power to effort ratio IMO. It's a drop & resist, not a thrust or "stomp" like the link above. I'd suspect that you could theoretically get more on one leg with your age & body type. I think this really is the same way an MLB pitcher's leg works and explains one link between good FH and BH mechanics.
Couple posts for your reference:
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2301605&postcount=5
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141084
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3794082&postcount=2
Ok, still working on the mental aspect of the transition into plant.
I believe the reason driving my heel down felt better is because I wasn't properly driving my hip back at the plant to clear it and transfer lower body forces into the throw. I think I have been pretty much fully bracing with quad muscle.
Curious about planting different ways, it seems to me the only way to brace with the quad is to come down with all your weight directly over it rather than from a lateral angle. Maybe that's why I'm coming over the top so much recently.
Secondly, I think I've been confused about the butt wipe drill this whole time. Would you say that the downward portion is a free fall until you catch yourself with the plant foot? I've been keeping a portion of balance on it throughout until the right leg extends.
I believe the reason driving my heel down felt better is because I wasn't properly driving my hip back at the plant to clear it and transfer lower body forces into the throw. I think I have been pretty much fully bracing with quad muscle.
Curious about planting different ways, it seems to me the only way to brace with the quad is to come down with all your weight directly over it rather than from a lateral angle. Maybe that's why I'm coming over the top so much recently.
Secondly, I think I've been confused about the butt wipe drill this whole time. Would you say that the downward portion is a free fall until you catch yourself with the plant foot? I've been keeping a portion of balance on it throughout until the right leg extends.
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I think I was referring to the Weck idea. I also did some ride the bull and understood it more in relation to the pratt drill.
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Brychanus
* Ace Member *
I think you're somewhat more on track conceptually there. Freefalling like walking or Door Frame Drill while the frame pulls you back. I also used to plant "too quaddy" due to bad dynamic posture and it was also definitely higher effort and harder on the body.
Weck made more sense to me after lots of work on other drills.
I think it would be a good idea to post how you are doing Ride the Bull.
Planning to film the ride the bull drill and post this afternoon.
Got my footwork to look better in some field work Monday, but I was never able to get over about 380' with that.
https://youtu.be/7O0FuAjh5vg
I tried loading up as much as possible on my back hip in standstill, and it went 380' also, so I have to assume my x-step isn't doing much for me.
https://youtu.be/b1k2jYE7XwE
Got my footwork to look better in some field work Monday, but I was never able to get over about 380' with that.
https://youtu.be/7O0FuAjh5vg
I tried loading up as much as possible on my back hip in standstill, and it went 380' also, so I have to assume my x-step isn't doing much for me.
https://youtu.be/b1k2jYE7XwE
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