^^^this.:thmbup::hfive:
*aarrgghh---I mean the post above this one. Never mind.
*aarrgghh---I mean the post above this one. Never mind.
-
Discover new ways to elevate your game with the updated DGCourseReview app!
It's entirely free and enhanced with features shaped by user feedback to ensure your best experience on the course. (App Store or Google Play)
So many divisions!!!!!!!!W
- Thread starter chris deitzel
- Start date
Thanks for the stat chuck. In places like Chicago where all am divisions are offered every tournament, people seem to play their ratings more often and you really see how much of the tournament population falls into that rec and intermediate level. I don't think it's a bad thing at all to run events that make it fun and competitive for that level player, chasing off a large percentage of ams because they are forced to play in a big open division sounds like the opposite of growing the sport to me.
grodney
* Ace Member *
What's the renewal rate for those rated <900 compared to those rated >= 900?
FTFY
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
The PDGA only partly controls a few Major events. Going to a more player pack versus prize model only makes sense from a logistics standpoint not necessarily player popularity. Ams dominate PDGA membership and their percentage numbers are increasing relative to pros. I believe those who think merch payouts are on the way out are mistaken.
Overall, more TDs and clubs are becoming interested in compensation for their efforts running leagues and events. If anything, the pro ranks will continue to decrease and even start getting merch prizes instead of cash at the league level if they want to play. It's easier and less "painful" for players when TDs earn their compensation and cover event expenses via the retail/wholesale merch differential than to directly charge fees to players.
Last edited:
Toro71
* Ace Member *
No real strong feelings one way or the other about either issue, but my .02...
DG would be fine with one age-protected div, a la ball golf.
Then you could ADD a classification: semi-pro or whatever you want to call it. My thinking is:
Any player should have the option of playing in events as a "true Am," with no payouts, and more modest entry fees.
No palyer should be "forced" to turn pro. This is a delimma facing a lot of top AMs, where you either go pro, or get tagged "bagger for life." The move from Int to Adv is one thing, but Adv to Open, is another. It took a conversation with a player in this position to make me see this angle of it.
But currently, the entire Amateur system we have makes every AM player for all intents and purposes "semi-pro."
So, you COULD eliminate all the various age-protected divs, leaving just one "line" there, and have the following 3 classes:
Am: true ams, no payouts, trophy only, or OK maybe small merch payouts/prizes to top 3. Smaller entry fees, none of which goes toward any other event payouts.
Semi-Pro: fully realized payout structure, why not keep it merch payouts, if there really is a local club/vendor, etc benefit, but the point being, you get to play for some sort of "juice," if you want. "current" entry fees, and some of the semi-pro cash can go toward Pro payouts...in other words, this would be what a lot of "advanced am" is about currently.
Pro: duh, except entry should be higher over Adv than currently.
This would in a sense eliminate the need for so many seperate am divs. With 3 classes, with each one available to most any player, you don't need them. (other than to promulgate the "everyone's a winner" idea, like Special Olympics, which is fine, but not really "competition.")
Also, now a player's only decision about whether to "move up" involves what they're in it for, not "how good" they are. There really shouldn't be any reason to force a 950 rated player to be anything other than "true am" if that's what they want, and, to a point, a sub-850 player should be able to play open, if they've got the entry fee. Obviously, you'd need some sort of minimum rating to play pro, for player sanity, but why limit it too much? Bigger payouts in Open are better, no?
I'm mostly thinking of sanctioned events, here. Local club fundraisers, etc, need to be able to do their own thing to a much larger extent. Sanctioned events should feel different, be different.
DG would be fine with one age-protected div, a la ball golf.
Then you could ADD a classification: semi-pro or whatever you want to call it. My thinking is:
Any player should have the option of playing in events as a "true Am," with no payouts, and more modest entry fees.
No palyer should be "forced" to turn pro. This is a delimma facing a lot of top AMs, where you either go pro, or get tagged "bagger for life." The move from Int to Adv is one thing, but Adv to Open, is another. It took a conversation with a player in this position to make me see this angle of it.
But currently, the entire Amateur system we have makes every AM player for all intents and purposes "semi-pro."
So, you COULD eliminate all the various age-protected divs, leaving just one "line" there, and have the following 3 classes:
Am: true ams, no payouts, trophy only, or OK maybe small merch payouts/prizes to top 3. Smaller entry fees, none of which goes toward any other event payouts.
Semi-Pro: fully realized payout structure, why not keep it merch payouts, if there really is a local club/vendor, etc benefit, but the point being, you get to play for some sort of "juice," if you want. "current" entry fees, and some of the semi-pro cash can go toward Pro payouts...in other words, this would be what a lot of "advanced am" is about currently.
Pro: duh, except entry should be higher over Adv than currently.
This would in a sense eliminate the need for so many seperate am divs. With 3 classes, with each one available to most any player, you don't need them. (other than to promulgate the "everyone's a winner" idea, like Special Olympics, which is fine, but not really "competition.")
Also, now a player's only decision about whether to "move up" involves what they're in it for, not "how good" they are. There really shouldn't be any reason to force a 950 rated player to be anything other than "true am" if that's what they want, and, to a point, a sub-850 player should be able to play open, if they've got the entry fee. Obviously, you'd need some sort of minimum rating to play pro, for player sanity, but why limit it too much? Bigger payouts in Open are better, no?
I'm mostly thinking of sanctioned events, here. Local club fundraisers, etc, need to be able to do their own thing to a much larger extent. Sanctioned events should feel different, be different.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
I don't think anyone has done numbers like this. The most telling stat is how many years a person has been a member in terms of renewal rates. Something like 50% of people who have just joined will not renew the next year. Among those who have renewed at least once, something like 85% renew. So the overall renewal rate has been stable in the 80% range which is comparable to other member orgs and sports orgs.
allinpflop
Eagle Member
It seems to me you would want as many am divisions as you can have. That way when you take all the money from the Ams to pay out to the pros you can have as much money as possible. The only reason anyone plays tournaments in Pittsburgh is bc of the great courses. Every single region that I have played in does 1000% better running events for Ams. I haven't played in a sanctioned event in Pittsburgh since I won int at Ironwood 2 years ago and won the same $15 in a preselected garbage disc which was the same payout as 2nd and 3rd place. Just be glad the sheep keep showing up to Pitt events so you have anything to even pay out to the "pros" in western Pa.
This is one of my favorite alternative-structure ideas I've ever read, and I've been tempted to try it here. The biggest hurdle is getting people to understand it, in the first place.
Top players get more money in the prize pool, and weak players get to play for very low entry.
If I recall correctly Intermediate was the largest division at that years Ironwood. $15 in disc credit for winning seems about right, only $25 less than your entry fee...:gross:
allinpflop
Eagle Member
In regards to merchant payout.....why in the world would I play in your event if I can't win anything? What are you providing me? You do realize that the reason you have money to pay out pros is due to the money you make off the Ams when you pay us out in discs for less than you paid for them? Furthermore why would I as a Pittsburgh pro be happy to play against a bigger field when all you are doing is donating to the best regional pro that happens to show up for this event?
Thumber
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2010
- Messages
- 1,712
You mean besides the opportunity to play an organized tournament right?
I agree that this is one of the better alternate structures I have heard of but I always wonder if the success of Craig's events are not at least slightly based on the fact that it is unique. If it was the standard formula for tournaments I think the popularity would drop off.
allinpflop
Eagle Member
If the tournament was well run maybe......but if I could play in an event like BG Ams where I get a players pack actually worth my entry fee, the chance to win a disc each rd and payout on top off that why would I spend my hard earned money for a trophy only?
whentherainscome
* Ace Member *
What other sport uses equipment that's small, cheap discs of plastic that are easily lost and relatively easily destroyed and available in a ridiculous variety?
Last tournament I was paid 51 "dollars" and picked up 3 discs and a beer glass. I'm sure the club didn't pay $16 bucks for some SOLFS or 10 for a Magic or 5 for the cup. The club profits. I profit cuz I have back up drivers and an awesome feeling new main putter. The club profits even more because I know they have good player's packs and pay outs and smoothly run events, so I'm more likely to travel out of town to play their events.
I'm an 880-some rated, MA3 player, was on the 2nd card for the second round, and the top of the field was tight, 4 stroke spread between first and, I think, eighth. Everyone on my card was within one stroke of each other on the last hole of our round, a 990' into a headwind with a narrow fairway around a large pond. You'll have a hard time convincing me that we stood on the tee, content in knowing we'd get a couple discs on our way out, and not 100% intent on out playing the other guys on this hole.
This is why I like the rating protected divisions. It'd be completely different with one AM field, standing there knowing some former-MA1 player shot -10 the first round and you're just an also-ran. Moving from 7th to 3rd in the second round feels good. Moving from 27th to 23rd... meh.
Last tournament I was paid 51 "dollars" and picked up 3 discs and a beer glass. I'm sure the club didn't pay $16 bucks for some SOLFS or 10 for a Magic or 5 for the cup. The club profits. I profit cuz I have back up drivers and an awesome feeling new main putter. The club profits even more because I know they have good player's packs and pay outs and smoothly run events, so I'm more likely to travel out of town to play their events.
I'm an 880-some rated, MA3 player, was on the 2nd card for the second round, and the top of the field was tight, 4 stroke spread between first and, I think, eighth. Everyone on my card was within one stroke of each other on the last hole of our round, a 990' into a headwind with a narrow fairway around a large pond. You'll have a hard time convincing me that we stood on the tee, content in knowing we'd get a couple discs on our way out, and not 100% intent on out playing the other guys on this hole.
This is why I like the rating protected divisions. It'd be completely different with one AM field, standing there knowing some former-MA1 player shot -10 the first round and you're just an also-ran. Moving from 7th to 3rd in the second round feels good. Moving from 27th to 23rd... meh.
Thumber
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2010
- Messages
- 1,712
why do you deserve a players pack of the same value as your entry fee? This is what I have never understood. I always thought of my registration fee as my payment for playing. Not payment in exchange for goods. Especially not payment for a disc and a shirt and towel I don't want or need. All my tournament discs seem to get set aside and donated to the club for CTP prizes in local tournaments. Maybe I am just past the "hoarding discs" phase. If I want a disc I am going to shop for it as I will have a very specific idea of what I want.
Part of it is the ratings/divional structure itself. I'll give an example from my most recent PDGA Event, the 303 Ams. I played my rating (at the time, sub-800) in the Rec division, which was trophy only. I took third and had a really good time. I got a Col full-color metal mini trophy. I beat the 4th place guy by 1,yet lost to 2nd place by 8 (I think) and he lost to the first place guy by 4. So that means I was 12 off from first. But these guys were no sandbaggers....they entered another tourney a week or two later, moved up because some Advanced player told them that they "had to" and just got decimated.
Meanwhile, down in the lowly Rec division of the 303 Ams, I beat guys who were playing Intermediate and Advanced. I chatted with a few of them, and while a couple just blamed it on having an off day (hey, it happens) they others were playing way over their ratings because they thought they had to since they had played a few tournaments already in their lifetime. So there's just so many misconceptions.
Payouts...whatever. I'm content playing for trophy only (obviously) but how many other casual players are? The guys I play with in the Rec division are al mostly like me: late 20s to early 30s, with full-time careers and families who play casually and like to get in and mix it op once in awhile to get a cool players pack and maybe win some goodies id they shoot really good that day. That's why its called "Recreational".....we just don't have the time or skill or whatever to move up. And usually around here Rec fields are pretty full. But its no fun when its only 3 guys playing in a division as opposed to 15 or more, and, for better or worse, that would be what would happen if you removed Am payouts. Disc Golf is unique to other sports....we should strive to keep it that way.
Meanwhile, down in the lowly Rec division of the 303 Ams, I beat guys who were playing Intermediate and Advanced. I chatted with a few of them, and while a couple just blamed it on having an off day (hey, it happens) they others were playing way over their ratings because they thought they had to since they had played a few tournaments already in their lifetime. So there's just so many misconceptions.
Payouts...whatever. I'm content playing for trophy only (obviously) but how many other casual players are? The guys I play with in the Rec division are al mostly like me: late 20s to early 30s, with full-time careers and families who play casually and like to get in and mix it op once in awhile to get a cool players pack and maybe win some goodies id they shoot really good that day. That's why its called "Recreational".....we just don't have the time or skill or whatever to move up. And usually around here Rec fields are pretty full. But its no fun when its only 3 guys playing in a division as opposed to 15 or more, and, for better or worse, that would be what would happen if you removed Am payouts. Disc Golf is unique to other sports....we should strive to keep it that way.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2007
- Messages
- 4,525
One thing that I have not seen mentioned much in this thread is personal pride/satisfaction of seeing one's name at or near the top of a list. I think this is a very important factor and motivator for people competing. Many/most competitors want to win.....and they want to know that people see them winning. And, winning does not only mean coming in at 1st place....it can also means beating other people/rivals.
Divisions with very wide ratings ranges do not allow the people on the bottom half to even feel like they have shot at breaking into the top 10-20% of finishers. With ratings ranges of 50 points, even the lowest rated player feels/hopes he can shoot 3-5 throws better per round and be in the upper echelons of his/her division. The hope of shooting 7-10 throws better per round than one's rating is not hope at all....its delusion.
Divisions with very wide ratings ranges do not allow the people on the bottom half to even feel like they have shot at breaking into the top 10-20% of finishers. With ratings ranges of 50 points, even the lowest rated player feels/hopes he can shoot 3-5 throws better per round and be in the upper echelons of his/her division. The hope of shooting 7-10 throws better per round than one's rating is not hope at all....its delusion.
Last edited:
grodney
* Ace Member *
I did 10 years ago. It was pretty interesting. Well, to me. Updated numbers might be interesting, to someone, now.
allinpflop
Eagle Member
In Pittsburgh and I'm sure many other places.....the "pros" get paid out in my entry fee. With a players pack and payout I'm still getting screwed but not as much....I at least have something to show for my entry fee. It would be one thing if it was a fundraiser tournament in which everyone's entry fee went to a cause but why should I as an am get no payout but you as a pro get one? If the entry fee went down to next to nothing (ie just to cover fees) like $10 and no payout fine but if I'm spending $40 to win nothing and the pros spend $75 to win everything, no thank you.
